Small Questions v. 10105

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 minutes ago, Blue Tiger said:

Maybe Illyria and Illyrian Wars?

Man, I spent days trying to figure out a clue in that dude's name. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

19 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

What is the meaning of "Illyrio?"  Doesn't it mean light or illuminated in Italian? 

Don't know about meaning but if you change it to the feminine Illyria and smash it together with Varys you get Valyria. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

36 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Don't know about meaning but if you change it to the feminine Illyria and smash it together with Varys you get Valyria. 

If you say it backwards really fast a couple times you get, "Oh, really?" (Days, and that's all I could come up with.)

[Cridefea]

2 hours ago, Blue Tiger said:

Maybe Illyria and Illyrian Wars?

yes exactly.

And also in mythology Illirio was the progenitor of Illiri, the population of Illyria, and son of Cadmus and Harmonia.

[Cridefea]

2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Don't know about meaning but if you change it to the feminine Illyria and smash it together with Varys you get Valyria. 

Valyria I think it's from Valeria, a name here in Italy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valeria_(given_name) . Its origin is from a Latin surname https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valeria_(gens)  

[Lost Melnibonean]

19 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

Valyria I think it's from Valeria, a name here in Italy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valeria_(given_name) . Its origin is from a Latin surname https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valeria_(gens)  

Valeria was Conan's squeeze. (Do you want to live forever?)

[Lost Melnibonean]

32 minutes ago, Cridefea said:

yes exactly.

And also in mythology Illirio was the progenitor of Illiri, the population of Illyria, and son of Cadmus and Harmonia.

Son of a gun, days, and I couldna find this? From Wikipedia...

Quote

Initially a Phoenician prince, son of king Agenor and queen Telephassa of Tyre and the brother of Phoenix, Cilix and Europa, Cadmus was originally sent by his royal parents to seek out and escort his sister Europa back to Tyre after she was abducted from the shores of Phoenicia by Zeus. Cadmus founded the Greek city of Thebes, the acropolis of which was originally named Cadmeia in his honour.

Tyre, eh? No wonder that lemon tree was transplanted to Braavos. Cadmus's wife was the daughter of the goddess of love and beauty. Isn't that like the goddess they worship in Lys, Serra's hometown? 

[Cridefea]

31 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Son of a gun, days, and I couldna find this? From Wikipedia...

Tyre, eh? No wonder that lemon tree was transplanted to Braavos. Cadmus's wife was the daughter of the goddess of love and beauty. Isn't that like the goddess they worship in Lys, Serra's hometown? 

Yes armony, it's interesting. She was daughter of "love and war" and then there is the story of her necklace  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necklace_of_Harmonia

45 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Valeria was Conan's squeeze. (Do you want to live forever?)

LoL! true 

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Why would we know about a plan to possibly betroth Daeron which never came to fruitation?

My point was, that as far as we know Daeron was not yet betrothed, and that might have been because Aegon III wanted to seal some sort of alliance with a marriage to his heir, (and thus not betrothing his heir to his own daughter), but had not yet reached any agreements at the time of his death.

Okay, in such a scenario that would be possible. But then, Aegon III apparently died a slow death (consumption kills you rather slowly) so he should have had the time to take his affairs in order. If Aegon III arranged the marriages of his children then one would expect that he would also have picked a future wife for Daeron to ensure to continuation of the Targaryen dynasty. And if the negotiations with whomever fell through he could always have picked one of his daughters for Daeron.

6 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Of course Aegon III expected Daeron to succeed him. I never suggested otherwise.

I suspect that the Naerys-Aegon match was made to keep the family tree from branching out too much. By marrying Aegon to Naerys, Viserys ensured that he could only have two lines of descendants (children of Aegon and Naerys, and children of Aemon). When Aemon joined the KG, that was brought back to one line.

Could be, but female Targaryen blood wasn't all that important at this point. It seems more likely to me that Viserys wanted to revive the incest thing with his children, possibly because of the dragons but perhaps also to have worthy grandchildren who could, perhaps, one day sit the Iron Throne.

6 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

As to why Daeron I might have arranged the marriage of his siblings but not his own, who knows? He was an ambitious man, and so I would expect that if he had to arrange his own marriage, he would want to make it as advantegous to the plans he had for his kingdom as possible.

Also, Daeron spend most of his reign at war. I can imagine he wished to spend his energy planning his battles, and not seeking a bride.

And who knows? Perhaps Daeron considered or agreed to a betrothal during his time in King's Landing, and we just haven't learned of it, yet.

Sure, that is all possible, but since Daeron I was the king and could always have married Daena himself regardless what had been agreed earlier unless he was already promised to somebody it is still odd that he actually saw his brother married before he himself married.

We learn that Aerys I's council repeatedly pushed him to get rid of Aelinor and take a wife that suited him. They wanted their king to have an heir. Daeron I's court would have wanted that, too, especially in light of the fact that he was warring.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I've decided Daeron was either gay or in love with someone he knew he couldn't marry (commoner, someone else's wife, etc). Those are the best explanations for putting Daena and Baelor together to produce an heir for him. Well, that or the joke thing. 

New small question: Did Wylla go to Winterfell while nursing Jon?

It seems the only person close enough to Ned or the situation to have a theory about it, who doesn't think Jon's mother is named Wylla, is Catelyn. Could this be because she knows his wetnurse was named Wyllla?

Part of me is thinking it'd be weird to have to send her back to Dorne after weaning, but another part is thinking it would be weird to have to keep getting a new wetnurse at each stage of the journey. 

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

New small question: Did Wylla go to Winterfell while nursing Jon?

It seems the only person close enough to Ned or the situation to have a theory about it, who doesn't think Jon's mother is named Wylla, is Catelyn. Could this be because she knows his wetnurse was named Wyllla?

Part of me is thinking it'd be weird to have to send her back to Dorne after weaning, but another part is thinking it would be weird to have to keep getting a new wetnurse at each stage of the journey. 

Really isn't a small question. I've been involved in many pages of debate on this question in the past. The short answer is we don't know. I believe it very, very unlikely that Wylla is the wet-nurse who is with Jon when Catelyn arrives in Winterfell. It is extremely unlike Ned to bring a women who we know claims to be Jon's mother back to Winterfell to be there in his household alongside of his new wife. Not only that, but if one thinks Ned is hiding the identity of Jon's mother, and possibly his father, in order to protect them, then the last thing Ned would do was to bring a women who was part of his cover story back North, through King's Landing where he tells Robert of Lyanna's death, and into Winterfell amongst people he never tells anything of Jon's origins. Just my thoughts, but again we don't know for sure.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

1 minute ago, SFDanny said:

Really isn't a small question. I've been involved in many pages of debate on this question in the past. The short answer is we don't know. I believe it very, very unlikely that Wylla is the wet-nurse who is with Jon when Catelyn arrives in Winterfell. It is extremely unlike Ned to bring a women who we know claims to be Jon's mother back to Winterfell to be there in his household alongside of his new wife. Not only that, but if one thinks Ned is hiding the identity of Jon's mother, and possibly his father, in order to protect them, then the last thing Ned would do was to bring a women who was part of his cover story back North, through King's Landing where he tells Robert of Lyanna's death, and into Winterfell amongst people he never tells anything of Jon's origins. Just my thoughts, but again we don't know for sure.

Okay, thanks SFDanny. Would you be willing to field another one? How come Edric Dayne hasn't figured out that the story he knows doesn't add up? Is there a consensus on him maybe just not being very bright? Cause it makes no sense that Ned was in love with Ashara but slept with Wylla, and then Wylla continued to work for the Daynes.

[SFDanny]

26 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Okay, thanks SFDanny. Would you be willing to field another one? How come Edric Dayne hasn't figured out that the story he knows doesn't add up? Is there a consensus on him maybe just not being very bright? Cause it makes no sense that Ned was in love with Ashara but slept with Wylla, and then Wylla continued to work for the Daynes.

No, no consensus that I know of, but rather than a result of his intelligence, I'd look to his age. Most twelve-year-olds believe what their parents tell is true. Arya certainly does at nine and ten. He grows up with Wylla as an intimate part of his household, so there is little reason for him to question why she is there. She just is. If he begins to wonder why the Daynes would keep a woman who is, supposedly, at least partly responsible for Ashara's "broken heart" then there could be stories told about Ned bringing Dawn to Starfall and a debt of honor, or some such cover up, but it still comes around to him only being twelve and believing what his parents tell him. Give him a few years until the rebellious side of puberty really kicks in and he will probably question everything the adults in his life tell him.

edit: I should add that this provokes another question about where Wylla is from. If the people of Starfall, believe as Ned Dayne does, and there is a strong likelihood they do, that Wylla is Jon's mother, then it very likely means Wylla hasn't been in Starfall while she was supposedly pregnant. If she really is Jon's mother, then we have to ask how Ned and Wylla got together to conceive Jon during the war. If she is not Jon's mom, then we have to assume she wasn't there in Starfall or the people would know she was lying. I lean strongly to the latter explanation.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

35 minutes ago, SFDanny said:

No, no consensus that I know of, but rather than a result of his intelligence, I'd look to his age. Most twelve-year-olds believe what their parents tell is true. Arya certainly does at nine and ten. He grows up with Wylla as an intimate part of his household, so there is little reason for him to question why she is there. She just is. If he begins to wonder why the Daynes would keep a woman who is, supposedly, at least partly responsible for Ashara's "broken heart" then there could be stories told about Ned bringing Dawn to Starfall and a debt of honor, or some such cover up, but it still comes around to him only being twelve and believing what his parents tell him. Give him a few years until the rebellious side of puberty really kicks in and he will probably question everything the adults in his life tell him.

edit: I should add that this provokes another question about where Wylla is from. If the people of Starfall, believe as Ned Dayne does, and there is a strong likelihood they do, that Wylla is Jon's mother, then it very likely means Wylla hasn't been in Starfall while she was supposedly pregnant. If she really is Jon's mother, then we have to ask how Ned and Wylla got together to conceive Jon during the war. If she is not Jon's mom, then we have to assume she wasn't there in Starfall or the people would know she was lying. I lean strongly to the latter explanation.

My knowledge of normal twelve-year-olds is pretty limited, but that makes sense I guess.

As to Wylla I figured she was at the ToJ to be wetnurse for Lyanna's baby. Not sure where she's from but this at least would make it true that Jon and Edric are milk brothers, and it would require her to have been pregnant prior to Jon's birth. If she lost her child at some point, she could easily claim that Jon had been hers and taken away by his father. Some wetnurses referred to the babies they nursed as "theirs" in a sense anyway, so that would make it less of a lie. Hey, maybe this is what Darkstar knows that makes him dangerous. Maybe Wylla came from High Hermitage, thus she's worked for House Dayne for many years, just not at Starfall for all of them.

[SFDanny]

41 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

My knowledge of normal twelve-year-olds is pretty limited, but that makes sense I guess.

No doubt this is based on my own personal experience, but I believe it to be true.

43 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

As to Wylla I figured she was at the ToJ to be wetnurse for Lyanna's baby.

That is certainly the consensus of those who subscribe to R+L=J.

44 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Not sure where she's from but this at least would make it true that Jon and Edric are milk brothers, and it would require her to have been pregnant prior to Jon's birth. If she lost her child at some point, she could easily claim that Jon had been hers and taken away by his father. Some wetnurses referred to the babies they nursed as "theirs" in a sense anyway, so that would make it less of a lie.

My favorite theory is that Wylla is the "Fisherman's daughter" Not that she really met Ned on the way to Sisterton, but that she is the reason for the story. I think it's a cover story for anyone looking into Wylla's claimed relationship to Jon. Meaning she is from the region and likely a fisherman's child. How she ends up at the Tower is a very interesting question. I like your other observations.

50 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Hey, maybe this is what Darkstar knows that makes him dangerous. Maybe Wylla came from High Hermitage, thus she's worked for House Dayne for many years, just not at Starfall for all of them.

I think you may have come up with a new twist in the story. That would mean Doran knows as well. I think that unlikely, but it's a new take on an old question.

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I've decided Daeron was either gay or in love with someone he knew he couldn't marry (commoner, someone else's wife, etc). Those are the best explanations for putting Daena and Baelor together to produce an heir for him. Well, that or the joke thing. 

New small question: Did Wylla go to Winterfell while nursing Jon?

It seems the only person close enough to Ned or the situation to have a theory about it, who doesn't think Jon's mother is named Wylla, is Catelyn. Could this be because she knows his wetnurse was named Wyllla?

Part of me is thinking it'd be weird to have to send her back to Dorne after weaning, but another part is thinking it would be weird to have to keep getting a new wetnurse at each stage of the journey. 

I think she accompanied Eddard to King's Landing, and then onto Winterfell, before being returned to Starfall. 

[SFDanny]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think she accompanied Eddard to King's Landing, and then onto Winterfell, before being returned to Starfall. 

As I said, it's not a small question. If you want to discuss it we should do it elsewhere 

[Lost Melnibonean]

9 hours ago, SFDanny said:

As I said, it's not a small question. If you want to discuss it we should do it elsewhere 

No thank you. As you suggested, the debate is endless. There is no definite answer. I am pretty sure I am right, but even if I turn out to be wrong, I don't think it really matters. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

15 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I've decided Daeron was either gay or in love with someone he knew he couldn't marry (commoner, someone else's wife, etc). Those are the best explanations for putting Daena and Baelor together to produce an heir for him. Well, that or the joke thing. 

For what it is worth:

[Was Daeron I gay?]

No, Daeron I was not gay. He was married, but died without issue.

(So Spake Martin, Targaryen History (April 20, 2008))

So it is possible that GRRM changed his mind on the "married" part, considering Daeron had no wife mentioned in text or the family tree in TWOIAF (although Rhae and Daella were married as well, and even had children, but neither their spouses nor their children were listed either in the family tree, telling us that not everyone is shown). But thusfar, I have not seen any hint suggesting he was gay, and at least in 2008, Martin did not consider Daeron I to be.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

16 hours ago, SFDanny said:

<snip

I like your other observations.

I think you may have come up with a new twist in the story. That would mean Doran knows as well. I think that unlikely, but it's a new take on an old question.

Thank you.

Oh Doran wouldn't absolutely have to know. It's possible Darkstar went to tell him (or Darkstar's mother/father) and as soon as he heard Lyanna's name or Rhaegar's he held up his hand and said he wouldn't listen. Then again, if Doran did know (and R+L=J) then I could definitely see him keeping that information to himself because he would not want Lyanna's son on the throne.

4 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

For what it is worth:

[Was Daeron I gay?]

No, Daeron I was not gay. He was married, but died without issue.

(So Spake Martin, Targaryen History (April 20, 2008))

So it is possible that GRRM changed his mind on the "married" part, considering Daeron had no wife mentioned in text or the family tree in TWOIAF (although Rhae and Daella were married as well, and even had children, but neither their spouses nor their children were listed either in the family tree, telling us that not everyone is shown). But thusfar, I have not seen any hint suggesting he was gay, and at least in 2008, Martin did not consider Daeron I to be.

Thanks for the SSM, Rhaenys_Targaryen. I missed that one.  Since he was heir it would make sense for him to have been married prior to Aegon III's death. Maybe Daeron's wife just hasn't been invented yet.