Small Questions v. 10105

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Alright, here's another one for ya: for how long are the Sand Snakes imprisoned in Sunspear?

And when are they released? Is it just in time for Balon Swann's arrival, or earlier?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

4 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Alright, here's another one for ya: for how long are the Sand Snakes imprisoned in Sunspear?

And when are they released? Is it just in time for Balon Swann's arrival, or earlier?

A quick break-down. How long the Sand Snakes were locked up is somewhat of a guess. We don't know anything exact. But this is what we do know:

 

The Sand Snakes hear the news of Oberyn's death, and confront Doran (AFFC, Chapter 2, The Captain of Guards). In response, Doran has them locked up. By the time we reach The Soiled Knight (AFFC, Chapter 13), we learn that at least a fortnight has passed since Oberyn's death has been known in Dorne.

 

A fortnight past, a trader had been butchered in the shadow city, a harmless man who’d come to Dorne for fruit and found death instead of dates. His only crime was being from King’s Landing. (AFFC, Chapter 13, The Soiled Knight)

 

Thus, the Sand Snakes have been locked up for at least a fortnight at that point.

 

Arianne convinces Arys to take part in her plot in that chapter, and within a fortnight, The Queenmaker (AFFC, Chapter 21) occurs. Arianne is arrested, brought back to Sunspear, and while leaving her time in confinement a  bit vague, we do get at least a minimum description. After "a fortnight", Arianne's patience begins to run out, causing her to attempt to escape on the 15th day. It takes her at least 7 days to convince Cedra to pass on a message, but when she gives Cedra the message is unclear ("For days Arianne wavered as she composed her secret letter."). Once the letter is passed on, we see three days go by in description, before we reach "Days came and went, one after the other, so many that Arianne lost count of how long she had been imprisoned." 

 

I've previously written about the passage of time here. In AFFC 17 (Cersei 4), Cersei learns that the Sand Snakes have been arrested. Balon will leave soon for Dorne, and in Cersei 5, we learn how Sylva Santagar has been married off, indicating that Arianne's plan has begun, ended, and failed already by this point. 

Balon only arrives at the borders of Dorne after Myrcella has been injured (no reason to stall him, otherwise, and he has been stalled since reaching Dorne).

 

Ser Balon’s journey had been shorter but troubling in its own way, the captain knew. Three knights, eight squires, twenty men-at-arms, and sundry grooms and servants had accompanied him from King’s Landing, but once they crossed the mountains into Dorne their progress had been slowed by a round of feasts, hunts, and celebrations at every castle that they chanced to pass. (ADWD, Chapter 38, The Watcher)

 

Balon has been kept busy at the castles for at least 22 days (hunting and hawking for 8 days with the Wyls, feasted for a fortnight by Lord Yronwood).  While we don't know how long the games Lady Jordayne has arranged for him last, nor the games arranged by Lady Toland (except that Toland's games will last longer than Jordayne's), we once again get an impression, because by the time Balon is at the Tor, Arianne is confronted by Doran, and by the time he reaches Sunspear, the Sand Snakes are freed.

 

So we get a full month of Arianne being imprisoned described in detail, after which the description becomes much vaguer. I'd personally estimate that she was locked up for about another month, at which point Doran confronted her. The Sand Snakes are still locked away. If you crossreference the distance Balon had to travel with travel distances known, he would have needed to travel for about a month. Add to that the 22 days he had been delayed by the time he reaches the Tor, and Balon's travels appear to fit such a lengthy confinement, alowing him to arrive a few short weeks after Arianne was released (with Arianne and Doran using the time in between her being released and Balon arriving for convincing Myrcella to lie to Balon about what happened to her).

 

How long exactly after Arianne's release Balon arrives, is not known, but Arianne has been released for a while by the time he arrives at Sunspear. 

 

Of late she had changed in other ways as well. Her plot to crown Myrcella had been betrayed and smashed, her white knight had perished bloodily at Hotah’s hand, and she herself had been confined to the Spear Tower, condemned to solitude and silence. All of that had chastened her. There was something else as well, though, some secret her father had confided in her before releasing her from her confinement. What that was, the captain did not know. (ADWD, Chapter 38, The Watcher)

 

But how long exactly is impossible to say.

 

The Sand Snakes, however, and I think they were released only shortly before Balon's arrival.

 

Chief amongst those were the Sand Snakes, the bastard daughters of the prince’s late brother Oberyn, the Red Viper, three of whom were at the feast. Doran Martell was the wisest of princes, and it was not the place of his captain of guards to question his decisions, but Areo Hotah did wonder why he had chosen to release the ladies Obara, Nymeria, and Tyene from their lonely cells in the Spear Tower. (ADWD, Chapter 38, The Watcher)

 

The point of locking them up was to prevent them from starting a war too soon. The fact that he wants them at the feast, but only makes them part of his plans after the feast is over, could suggest that they were released ostly to be able to attend the feast and hear Balon's objections and words for themselves, which becomes important in the conversation Doran has with them later, at which point they are included in his plans.

 

So for keeping count, the Sand Snakes were locked up some 3 months, at the very minimum. 

[W1NT3RF3LL]

This may be a silly question, or it may have been asked before.  However, I was thinking.  No one has truly come forward with whether Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna or if was a mutual arrangement.  With what has been presented thus far we can agree it was most likely a kidnapping as that is what we get from Robert's perspective and no one seems to challenge him on it.  With that being said a quote from Barristen Selmy kind of hit me, " Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it "  How does Barristen know that Raegar loved Lady Lyanna?  How much of the situation was he aware of?  Is it possible that he knew more?  If Selmy knew there was love there, then surely Vary's of all people would know more from his spies, no?  Which would then lead to more knowing of the Tower of Joy than just Reed?  Thoughts

[Jon Weirgaryen]

@W1NT3RF3LL:

As you may see by the length and complexity of your question, it is not a small one. Also it would be well placed in R+L=J, a series of threads that have recently put a lot of effort in sheding light at the how and when and where of the Lyanna/Rhaegar abduction / kidnapping / rescue / running-away-together possibilities.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

9 minutes ago, Jon Weirgaryen said:

snp

Does tagging still work if the tag is made by editing a post? Just wondering..

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 1-5-2016 at 1:57 PM, GrapefruitPerrier said:

How long does it take a body to turn to a "wight" in ASoIaF?

 

On 1-5-2016 at 5:16 PM, Blue Tiger said:

In GoT prologue we see Ser Waymar's body rising as wight almost immedietely after his death. Probably in presence of Others person becomes wight in the moment of his death ( when his soul/spirit/will/ leaves the body?)

 

 

On 1-5-2016 at 7:37 PM, Clegane'sPup said:

I have to disagree. After Waymar was killed and the Other’s left Will stayed up the tree a long time.  After Will climbed down he noticed Royce’s body lay face down in the snow.  Will looked for the broken sword, then found it and discovered Royce standing over him.

We have been talking about that kinda stuff in

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/139036-white-walker-question/

It is on page 3 or 4 if anyone is interested.

 

Will indeed takes his time before climbing down from the tree. So in Waymar's case, it took some time.

However, in the ADWD prologue, we see someone turning into a wight rather quickly. Thistle is turned into a wight quite quickly after dying. She and Varamyr fight over her body, and when Varamyr's spirit leaves both his own body and hers, he finds One-Eye's body quite quickly. As One-Eye, he then sees the wights walking past, Thistle amongst them.

It's not an exact time-passage, but it does create a picture of sorts.

[W1NT3RF3LL]

36 minutes ago, Jon Weirgaryen said:

@W1NT3RF3LL:

As you may see by the length and complexity of your question, it is not a small one. Also it would be well placed in R+L=J, a series of threads that have recently put a lot of effort in sheding light at the how and when and where of the Lyanna/Rhaegar abduction / kidnapping / rescue / running-away-together possibilities.

Lol, you are definitely right on it not being small.  I figured it would fit in here more than in R+L=J, because it was more about if others new of the situation rather than it being about R+L=J exclusively.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, W1NT3RF3LL said:

This may be a silly question, or it may have been asked before.  However, I was thinking.  No one has truly come forward with whether Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna or if was a mutual arrangement.  With what has been presented thus far we can agree it was most likely a kidnapping as that is what we get from Robert's perspective and no one seems to challenge him on it.  With that being said a quote from Barristen Selmy kind of hit me, " Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it "  How does Barristen know that Raegar loved Lady Lyanna?  How much of the situation was he aware of?  Is it possible that he knew more?  If Selmy knew there was love there, then surely Vary's of all people would know more from his spies, no?  Which would then lead to more knowing of the Tower of Joy than just Reed?  Thoughts

The short answer, is that we don't know where Barristan got his info from. We don't know of how much he was aware, and what he might know which we have yet to learn from his chapters.

Did Barristan know it was love, or did he conclude it? Recall how Daenerys also states that Rhaegar died "for the woman he loved". Since Viserys most likely was her source for that knowledge (though there's always the small chance that Darry told her before he died), we can still wonder whether Dany's source, or, the source of Dany's source (if you understand what I mean), was telling the truth, and whether this person was saying something they had concluded on their own, or whether they had actual confirmation.

What I currently see, is that the loyalist-side is supporting the idea that it was love, whereas the rebel-side is saying the it was a kidnapping.

 

As to Varys, recall that the ToJ most likely was lacking little birds, which would limit Varys's knowledge on all that happened in that tower significantly. He might have been interested in what happened there, and thus, he might have ideas, sure. But whether he could have any knowledge on what actually happened in that tower, is not sure at all.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

Cheers

It gets very complicated figuring out that timeline stuff, doesn't it? I was trying to figure out whether, in TWOW, Arianne II:

Spoiler

it could have been Mace leading the Tyrell army against Storm's End, as Arianne and Daemon seem to assume...

... among other things, but I think I'll have to admit defeat. Thanks anyway!

[Drogonthedread]

When asked about dany's moment in drogo's pyre ..

I rremember GRRM saying that dany performs the magic as she goes ...

Can someone help me find the quote ..thanks ..

[Nittanian]

18 minutes ago, Drogonthedread said:

When asked about dany's moment in drogo's pyre ..

I rremember GRRM saying that dany performs the magic as she goes ...

Can someone help me find the quote ..thanks ..

The closest I can find:

Quote

Q: Do Targaryens become immune to fire once they "bond" to their dragons?

A: Granny, thanks for asking that. It gives me a chance to clear up a common misconception. TARGARYENS ARE NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE! The birth of Dany's dragons was unique, magical, wonderous, a miracle. She is called The Unburnt because she walked into the flames and lived. But her brother sure as hell wasn't immune to that molten gold.

Q: So she won't be able to do it again?

A: Probably not.

 

[Drogonthedread]

3 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

The closest I can find:

 

Thank you ..yeah I too can find this one only.  

 

But I definitely remember him say those exact words that dany did the magic herself ...it was posted in some of the threads related to this topic couple of years ago ..I can't locate that 

 

If anoyone finds it would be great help 

[MtnLion]

1 hour ago, Drogonthedread said:

Thank you ..yeah I too can find this one only.  

 

But I definitely remember him say those exact words that dany did the magic herself ...it was posted in some of the threads related to this topic couple of years ago ..I can't locate that 

 

If anoyone finds it would be great help 

Did you try these threads?

 

[Drogonthedread]

21 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

Did you try these threads?

 

Thank you for this links ..I rememebered the thread about tze but didn't want to go in it.   

Hope I will find it in these thank you 

[MtnLion]

7 minutes ago, Drogonthedread said:

Thank you for this links ..I rememebered the thread about tze but didn't want to go in it.   

Hope I will find it in these thank you 

You're welcome.  The quote that you are looking for I recall, as well.  Some quotes have been pulled, in the past, as having an unreliable source.  But, I don't believe that would be the case with this particular quote.  The problem with finding some quotes is that they occurred in online chat/video sessions with GRRM, and have not been transcribed in a searchable format. 

[Drogonthedread]

5 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

You're welcome.  The quote that you are looking for I recall, as well.  Some quotes have been pulled, in the past, as having an unreliable source.  But, I don't believe that would be the case with this particular quote.  The problem with finding some quotes is that they occurred in online chat/video sessions with GRRM, and have not been transcribed in a searchable format. 

Yeah I guess that's the problem here ..

I want to prove that quote exists to my friend very badly...

My search continues ...hopefully we will get that quote soon from one of our posters here .

[Drogonthedread]

16 minutes ago, MtnLion said:

You're welcome.  The quote that you are looking for I recall, as well.  Some quotes have been pulled, in the past, as having an unreliable source.  But, I don't believe that would be the case with this particular quote.  The problem with finding some quotes is that they occurred in online chat/video sessions with GRRM, and have not been transcribed in a searchable format. 

Oh dear god i found the quote in this thread 

 

Once again thank you 

[Nittanian]

It looks like the original came from this Amazon interview.

[Drogonthedread]

8 hours ago, Nittanian said:

It looks like the original came from this Amazon interview.

Thank you nittanian ...you don't know how much you helped me with this interview..

I came looking for one but got another bonus with this full interview

Its second time GRRm is compared dany to aragorn and dragons are compared to aragorn's sword ..and we do looking for a sword in this series dont we..

It adds points to dragons are lightbringers .

[The Wondering Wolf]

Quote

The white knight did drink, as was only courteous. His companions likewise. So did the Princess Arianne, Lady Jordayne, the Lord of Godsgrace, the Knight of Lemonwood, the Lady of Ghost Hill … even Ellaria Sand, Prince Oberyn's beloved paramour, who had been with him in King's Landing when he died. (A Dance with Dragons, The Watcher)

Does this mean that Delonne had died at this point?