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Significance of House Blackwood and Bloodraven's agenda


Gwindor

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I'm not sure this hasn't been discussed before, but I couldn't find an approach on the subject from this particular point of view.

Melissa Blackwood gave birth to Aegon IV's bastard Brynden Rivers in 175 AC. During the reign of three following monarchs Brynden occupied important positions at court:

  • Daeron II (184 - 209 AC): Brynden Rivers is Master of Whisperers (probably not for the whole reign, maybe since after the Rebellion), and one of Daeron's most prominent supporters during the First Blackfyre Rebellion.
  • Aerys I (209 - 221 AC): Brynden is named Hand of the King and de facto rules the Seven Kingdoms during all twelve years of Aerys's reading reign.
  • Maekar I (221 - 233 AC): Brynden keeps his position as Hand, although probably has somewhat less power now as Maekar is a stronger king than Aerys.

In 220 AC, Aegon V marries Betha Blackwood, and all the following Targaryens and, later, Baratheons, are born from their marriage, in particular Jaehaerys II, Aerys II, Queen Rhaella, Rhaegar, his children Rhaenys and Aegon, Viserys, Daenerys, (if R + L = J, then also Jon Snowand also, through Ormund Baratheon's marriage to Rhaelle Targaryen, Steffon, Robert, Stannis, Renly, Shireen, Edric Storm, Mya Stone, Gendry, and other Robert's bastards.

Willam Stark, the late Lord Rickard's grandfather, married Melantha Blackwood, although we don't know exactly when. Willam died in 226 AC, and by then already had two children by Melantha. (Here I need some help from timeline experts. Could anyone tell about when this marriage could have happened? That portion of the history of the Starks is rather unclear.Anyway, from their marriage all the current Starks trace their descent, in particular Rickard, Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna, Benjen, Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon, and Jon Snow (if R + L = J, then he's kind of twice as much Blackwood as the others). Also, Melantha's daughter Jocelyn married a Royce, and her three daughters married into Houses Waynwood, Corbray, and maybe Templeton, so there might be Blackwood descendants in the Vale (maybe even Anya Waynwood or Lyn Corbray).

We don't know exactly how Melissa, Betha, and Melantha were related, but I think it's safe to assume they were related. So all the characters listed above in bold italic are blood-related through Blackwood blood. In a society with different naming traditions, they might all have been called Blackwoods.

Also, the two later marriages happened around the time when Bloodraven, a son from the earliest of the three marriages, had significant political power and could have facilitated those marriages. After all, it's a rather big deal for a relatively minor House to have two women married into Houses Targaryen and Stark at around the same time.

So, a Blackwood descendant, heavily rumored (and actually confirmed) to possess magical powers, comes to an important political position and organizes two extremely advantageous marriages for his maternal family.

Was he doing it just for political advantage? I doubt it. It seems to me Bloodraven must have had a 'magical' agenda even back then. And it looks likely he was kind of... well, breeding.

Bloodraven waits for Bran to come to him, and when Bran comes he says it is "almost too late". He also admits to having watched the lives of Bran's father and grandfather before him. It appears he was expecting a (Brandon?) Stark with specific abilities to be born of Melantha's bloodline, but wasn't sure exactly when, or even in which generation. (I also like the theory that Bloodraven planted Old Nan in Winterfell to look after this expected Stark and educate him in northern lore from the earliest age in form of fairy-tales. And she grew ancient waiting, and the expected Stark still remained to be born ("all crows are liars").)

Now remember TPtwP prophecy. Maester Aemon used to believe Rhaegar would be the Promised Prince, and Rhaegar believed the same, but later they changed their minds in favor of Rhaegar's son. Later yet, Aemon comes to believe Daenerys is actually the Promised Prince[ss], and she finally brings the dragons back into the world. As Brynden was on the Wall with Aemon for almost twenty years, I think it's likely they discussed the issue. And it seems that again, Bloodraven was expecting a Targaryen with specific abilities to be born of Betha's bloodline, but wasn't sure exactly when.

Funnily, this looks to me like a crude form of genetic engineering possible with medieval level of science and technology: just breed and wait and hope the desired traits manifest in some generation. And I'm mentioning this mainly because GRRM has previously written a lot of stories about genetic engineering, and it would be fun if he included a fantasy equivalent in ASOIAF.

Additional points to support this idea:

  1. That the whole lot of aforementioned characters are in fact family is not even a theory, it's a fact. They are relatives and, coincidentally(?) they are the first groups of characters we are introduced to in the beginning of the books. Almost all the initial protagonists - Blackwoods. Almost all the magic-related characters in Westeros - Blackwoods. The Blackwood blood seems the very reason magic is returning to Westeros.
  2. Although House Blackwood has played only an ostensibly minor role in the books so far, the special effort GRRM has made to make it stand out among Tully bannermen is palpable. Their keeping the Old Gods south of the Neck, their sigil, their castle, AND their current Lord Tytos, with his raven feather cloak and bright inlaid armor, yellow or scarlet. We are constantly reminded about House Blackwood. We even had a POV dedicated to the surrender of Raventree Hall to Jaime Lannister, with a great view on the castle, their weirwoods and ravens, as well as an emphasis on the House history.
  3. Bloodraven is central to the whole plot, it seems. But we definitely don't know everything about him and his agenda, so it's only logical to expect a revelation about his much greater role in the books than was previously believed.

So, was it Brynden Rivers who made the current Starks and Targaryens the way they are?

Any thoughts?

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13 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Great Blackwood Conspiracy? I would like that. However I don't believe that the Blackwood blood in the resent Targ line (Jon and Dany) is enough to give them special powers.

I don't think it's about the percentage of Blackwood blood/genes. It's more likely about a specific trait that has some small chance to manifest in following generations. Like some recessive gene (rare eye or hair color) can be passed from parents to children through generations before manifesting in the actual looks of one of the descendants (being before that repressed by other, dominant genes, but passed forward mostly unchanged).

13 minutes ago, Beorn Snow said:

Blackwoods, Daynes and Hightowers. There is a pattern of First-men ancient houses that are shaping the story, by what they´ve done in the past or might be doing off-scene. I get the feeling we will never know all, but we´ll see more of them in the next book.

Yeah, I've got the same feeling. And I'd also add the Royces to the list.

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14 minutes ago, Beorn Snow said:

Blackwoods, Daynes and Hightowers. There is a pattern of First-men ancient houses that are shaping the story, by what they´ve done in the past or might be doing off-scene. I get the feeling we will never know all, but we´ll see more of them in the next book.

I always had that feeling. Even long before the WOIAF I had here a discussion about how important the Blackwoods really are just because I had a hunch and no actual text to support it. 

5 minutes ago, Gwindor said:

I don't think it's about the percentage of Blackwood blood/genes. It's more likely about a specific trait that has some small chance to manifest in following generations. Like some recessive gene (rare eye or hair color) can be passed from parents to children through generations before manifesting in the actual looks of one of the descendants (being before that repressed by other, dominant genes, but passed forward mostly unchanged).

What I mean is that in the case of the Targ it's like a cheat code if they have the powers both of the Valyrians and the First Men.

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The Blackwoods have provided two greenseers. Directly or indirectly, by women born in this House. But I believe Bael the Bard is also part of the Stark's heritage. And Jon has more of it that anyone.

Concerning Targaryen and Blackwoods, it means that Rhaenys skin changing in her cat Balerion at her death is quite possible.

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12 minutes ago, Beorn Snow said:

If it turns out Melisandre is a secret Blackwood/Targaryen/Bloodraven descendant then pretty much all magic users in the series apart from people associated with Marwyn, would be Blackwoods.

There seem to be other Red Priests with magical powers besides Melisandre, Moqorro, for example. And generally it looks like there's some magic in Essos (Asshai, Qarth, the Faceless Men). But in Westeros magic was pretty much absent for a long time (because of the Citadel? maybe also the Hightowers?), and now it's coming back through the Blackwoods.

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9 hours ago, Gwindor said:

Daeron II (184 - 209 AC): Brynden Rivers is Master of Whisperers (probably not for the whole reign, maybe since after the Rebellion), and one of Daeron's most prominent supporters during the First Blackfyre Rebellion.

If I remember correctly, that hasn't been confirmed anywhere, I even think that Ran said he wasn't.

9 hours ago, Gwindor said:

Willam Stark, the late Lord Rickard's grandfather, married Melantha Blackwood, although we don't know exactly when. Willam died in 226 AC, and by then already had two children by Melantha. (Here I need some help from timeline experts. Could anyone tell about when this marriage could have happened? That portion of the history of the Starks is rather unclear.)

Here is a thread discussing the historical Starks. Willam was born around 200 AC, so the wedding took place in the late 210s or early 220s.

9 hours ago, Gwindor said:

Also, the two later marriages happened around the time when Bloodraven, a son from the earliest of the three marriages, had significant political power and could have facilitated those marriages. After all, it's a rather big deal for a relatively minor House to have two women married into Houses Targaryen and Stark at around the same time.

Bloodraven wasn't born in wedlock. ;) And I'm not sure if he had anything to do with those marriages. The marriage between Aegon and Betha was a love match. And Willam wasn't the first Stark marrying a Blackwood. I'm pretty sure that Melantha and Betha had Stark blood through one of Cregan's daughters who married back into her mother's family.

9 hours ago, Gwindor said:

In a society with different naming traditions, they might all have been called Blackwoods.

I see your point, but I can't imagine such a society. :D 

 

 

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1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

If I remember correctly, that hasn't been confirmed anywhere, I even think that Ran said he wasn't.

Maybe. Still, that is rather irrelevant, mainly because:

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Here is a thread discussing the historical Starks. Willam was born around 200 AC, so the wedding took place in the late 210s or early 220s.

So, the marriage happened while Bloodraven was Hand of the King, he had significant political power, that is the point.

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

Bloodraven wasn't born in wedlock.

Oops :) sorry, my bad. What I meant there when writing 'marriage' was actually closer to 'coupling'. A poor word choice, thankfully insignificant for the theory

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

And I'm not sure if he had anything to do with those marriages. The marriage between Aegon and Betha was a love match. And Willam wasn't the first Stark marrying a Blackwood.

Sure. Still, it's curious those two marriages happened while a half-Blackwood ruled the Seven Kingdoms. 

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I'm pretty sure that Melantha and Betha had Stark blood through one of Cregan's daughters who married back into her mother's family.

And that's interesting as well! But do we know it for sure? I can't recall any information about Cregan's daughters.

1 hour ago, The Wondering Wolf said:
11 hours ago, Gwindor said:

In a society with different naming traditions, they might all have been called Blackwoods.

I see your point, but I can't imagine such a society. :D 

Neither can I :D It's just kind of a metaphor to emphasize the point.

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35 minutes ago, Gwindor said:

Still, that is rather irrelevant,

I know, just like to point out such little things because people read it and take it as a fact, and maybe someone else someday creates a theory based on that info. You know, nip things in the bud. ;) 

39 minutes ago, Gwindor said:

And that's interesting as well! But do we know it for sure? I can't recall any information about Cregan's daughters.

It's not canon so far (rather head-canon), but it's stated in the MUSH, so I see a fair chance for it. :) 

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This is a fascinating topic with so much possibility.    No mention of The Warg Kings nor the exile from The North.   This breeding concept is sort of how the Stark lineage reads in AWOIAF.   If The Starks conquered their enemies and forced loyalty by marrying the daughters it only stands to reason that that the next generation of  Starks would have whatever genes were possessed by the daughters' families.   They married the Marsh Kings, The Barrow Kings and The Warg Kings.   No mention of wedding any Red Kings' daughters though.    The Warg Kings are specifically not identified and the Blackwoods are exiled from some unknown reason.  Yes, that line is drawn.  We know what wargs are but not their family name.  Only that it is a talent seemingly limited to the North.  Then southron BR shows up in a tree and we have our 1st confirmation of a southron warg...gee, wonder where that came from?   Could be the warg talent was as latent in the Balckwoods as it was the Starks and required oh maybe the Targ gene to reactivate it.  Perhaps the Tully gene activated the Stark kids' talents since they all seem to have it and Jon getting his from the Targ contributor.  It could be the dragons returning, but the genetics seem to be screaming from both sides.  It's extremely interesting that the enormous weirwood at Raven Hall is dead.   

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2 minutes ago, b00gieman said:

So I'm the only one here who sees that Bloodraven is being played in his own house?  There is a nest of COTF enthroned just like him in another part of his cave and he really believes that he is the "Last Greenseer"?  He is being played.  The question is what do they really want?

I'm not one for wild speculation, but the 1st thought that crossed my mind when reading your post was:The Blackwoods are The Others.   I'm laughing at myself, but I too, just recently brought up that deal with all the other tree people and BR supposedly the Last Greenseer.   Doesn't pass the smell test yet, does it?   How come those other tree guys can't speak?   Someone is being played.   If BR is as powerful as supposed he may be the player and there may be some evil to his agenda.  If the Blackwoods as Warg Kings are connected to The Others, BR may simply be caught up in the wrongness of the family agenda.    All I am certain of is BR's former loyalty.    Once he went to the Wall information became scarce---dammit, Aemon should have been able to give some hint or direction about this guy.   I'm hoping for a lost journal.   We simply don't know enough yet though conversations like this certainly open a reader up to all sorts of previously unknowns.

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4 hours ago, b00gieman said:

So I'm the only one here who sees that Bloodraven is being played in his own house?  There is a nest of COTF enthroned just like him in another part of his cave and he really believes that he is the "Last Greenseer"?  He is being played.  The question is what do they really want?

Your link is TL;DR. Can you give us an abridged version? BR is good COTF are bad?

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18 hours ago, Gwindor said:

We are constantly reminded about House Blackwood. We even had a POV dedicated to the surrender of Raventree Hall to Jaime Lannister, with a great view on the castle, their weirwoods and ravens, as well as an emphasis on the House history.

The ravens in Raventree Hall specially captured my attention, after all the three eyed crow has a thousand eyes and one, and the weirwood is there too, it smells a lot like BR, or may be Bran looking trough those eyes, I have a theory that many times Bran try to communicate to known people of him in different times, he whispers Theon's name at WF as he was the weirwood, and he speaks to Jon as the Raven Mormont's left when he died, maybe he ws trying to warn Jon about what will happen to him.

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