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GRRM in IGN interview: Same ending since 1991


Joan Jett

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The question starts at around 12:05.

Apparently GRRM has been planning the same ending since 1991. However it is only the "broad strokes" and some small details will be different. 

From reading his 1993 original outline, we can speculate a bit on how the story was supposed to end back then. 

Some key quotes from the outline:

Quote

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process.

.....

The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow.

......

Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

 

It's clear to me that Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, and Jon are all still surviving until the last book. They are "key players" and will obviously  have a huge impact on the ending of the series. 

Also R+L=J is still pretty important for Jon. In the outline the realization of his parentage is what releases Jon and Arya from their torment, and it's what lets them "be together" despite Jon being in the NW.  R+L=J makes Jon and Arya cousins instead of siblings and it also gives Jon a claim to the iron throne, possibly leading to him becoming King. Jon and Arya "being together" meant them getting married and being King and Queen. Such an ending would fit with the title, A Time for Wolves, the originally planned title of the last book. There's lots of hints at an ending like this in AGOT, too.

My point is that GRRM planned for Jon and Arya to be together as King and Queen in 1993. That's still his plan today. 

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22 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

I can guarantee you that Jon x Arya won't be happening.

Jon x Sansa though has a chance.

That could be one of those details he changed around. Let Arya die and have Jon Snow hook up with with his other sister instead.

Why? There's no textual evidence for it at all.  Are you just more comfortable with the idea of Jon/Sansa?

Also there is a huge difference between Sansa and Arya. They are not interchangable. Switching Arya for Sansa would be no small detail, especially since there's actually an emotional connection between Arya and Jon that is completely absent between Jon and Sansa. Sansa barely ever thinks of Jon unless she's forced to. 

And it's my opinion that GRRM is building something between Sansa and Sandor. Sansa imagines a kiss that never happened between them. The gravedigger seems like he talks about Sansa often. Something is going to come from that.

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3 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

Why? There's no textual evidence for it at all.  Are you just comfortable with the idea of Jon/Sansa?

I never said it would be a marriage of love.

And more like I'm more comfortable with Jon x Sansa than Jon Arya.  

Poor Jon. It seems he's cursed to commit incest one way or the other when you bring in Danerys as well. 

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1 minute ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

What exactly are you proposing in the OP?  Do you think the rest of the Stark kids are goners, aka Sansa and Rickon?

No, I didn't imply that at all. Why would you think that? I have no idea where Rickon could end up. Sansa too. 

I believe Bran will return to Winterfell for sure.

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7 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

I never said it would be a marriage of love.

And more like I'm more comfortable with Jon x Sansa than Jon Arya.  

Poor Jon. It seems he's cursed to commit incest one way or the other when you bring in Danerys as well. 

What's love got to do with it? Lol.  I was talking about hints in the text. Foreshadowing.  

For example, in the first book Ned tells Arya that she will "marry a king"  in casual dialogue.  I interpret that as foreshadowing that Arya will marry Jon. Another example would be Mormont's raven screaming "king" at Jon. I interpret that as a hint that Jon will become King. And there are more quotes that also support such an ending. 

There's nothing in the text that can be interpreted at foreshadowing for a Jon and Sansa marriage. It comes from no where. 

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I see you 'round the streets here Joan Jett and I usually agree with your take on things. The Jon+Arya thing... I can't see it happening. Major ick factor aside (still raised as siblings) it came across as different to me.

Throughout the story Jon thinks of his mother a lot as well. He has dreams he cannot explain that take him to the crypts under Winterfell, etc., and this is probably his true parentage calling at him.

Arya is very often described as being like Lyanna in looks and attitude. It seems like Jon thinks of Arya so much because of his pull to heritage and who his mother was. Something he desperately craves because it will give him his needed identity (a common theme among the big POV characters). 

Jon doesn't seem the type to either want to take WInterfell or the Iron Throne when he still feels a bastard. He would happily give that up to one of his remaining Stark brothers or sisters if asked of him. There might not even be an IT inthe end. I have a feeling that the dragon fire that made it will end up un-making it. There is also a chance that the North and South will draw a line in the sand and we end up with two kingdoms. I really, truly belive Val will be more important to Jon somewhere in his resurrection and possible "afterlife". He is linking himself and other people are linking him to being more of a wildling as time goes by.

I'm not 100% sure what you are proposing in your OP, so if I missed your point just let me know.

The idea of Jon+Sansa is hilarious! I can imagine Sansa's face wrinkling up at the idea of marrying her bastard brother :tantrum:

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22 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

What's love got to do with it? Lol.  I was talking about hints in the text. Foreshadowing.  

For example, in the first book Ned tells Arya that she will "marry a king"  in casual dialogue.  I interpret that as foreshadowing that Arya will marry Jon. Another example would be Mormont's raven screaming "king" at Jon. I interpret that as a hint that Jon will become King. And there are more quotes that also support such an ending. 

There's nothing in the text that can be interpreted at foreshadowing for a Jon and Sansa marriage. It comes from no where. 

And then Arya replies "no, that's Sansa" so you could easily see that as foreshadowing Sansa marrying a king not Arya

Also there's this:

"You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

 

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2 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

And then Arya replies "no, that's Sansa" so you could easily see that as foreshadowing Sansa marrying a king not Arya

Also there's this:

"You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

 

Yeah, that line from Jon to Arya always gets me in the gut. I wonder if that still plays out in the end?

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2 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I see you 'round the streets here Joan Jett and I usually agree with your take on things. The Jon+Arya thing... I can't see it happening. Major ick factor aside (still raised as siblings) it came across as different to me.

Throughout the story Jon thinks of his mother a lot as well. He has dreams he cannot explain that take him to the crypts under Winterfell, etc., and this is probably his true parentage calling at him.

Arya is very often described as being like Lyanna in looks and attitude. It seems like Jon thinks of Arya so much because of his pull to heritage and who his mother was. Something he desperately craves because it will give him his needed identity (a common theme among the big POV characters). 

Jon doesn't seem the type to either want to take WInterfell or the Iron Throne when he still feels a bastard. He would happily give that up to one of his remaining Stark brothers or sisters if asked of him. There might not even be an IT inthe end. I have a feeling that the dragon fire that made will end up un-making it. There is also a chance that the North and South will draw a line in the sand and we end up with two kingdoms. I really, truly belive Val will be more important to Jon somewhere in his resurrection and possible "afterlife". He is linking himself and other people are linking him to being more of a wildling as time goes by.

I'm not 100% sure what you are proposing in your OP, so if I missed our point just let me know.

The idea of Jon+Sansa is hilarious! I can just imagine Sansa's face wrinkling up at the idea of marrying her "bastard brother". :tantrum:

 

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger … he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

 

That morning he called it first. “I’m Lord of Winterfell!” he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time,this time, Robb had answered, “You can’t be Lord of Winterfell, you’re bastard-born. My lady mother says you can’t ever be the Lord of Winterfell.”

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he’d taken.

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. “Jon, enough,” Halder was shouting, “he’s down, you disarmed him.Enough! ”

No. Not enough. Never enough. Jon let his sword drop. “I’m sorry,” he muttered. “Emmett, are you hurt?”

Iron Emmett pulled his battered helm off. “Was there some part of yield you could not comprehend, Lord Snow?” It was said amiably, though. Emmett was an amiable man, and he loved the song of swords. “Warrior defend me,” he groaned, “now I know how Qhorin Halfhand must have felt.”

That was too much. Jon wrenched free of his friends and retreated to the armory, alone. His ears were still ringing from the blow Emmett had dealt him. He sat on the bench and buried his head in his hands. Why am I so angry? he asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father’s heir.

 

“I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off.

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19 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

And then Arya replies "no, that's Sansa" so you could easily see that as foreshadowing Sansa marrying a king not Arya

Also there's this:

"You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."

 

Ned tells Arya that she will marry a king while he tells Sansa that he will find a good lord for her. Arya said "that's Sansa" because Sansa was literally betrothed to the crowned prince at the time. Everyone thought that that's what Sansa's life was going to be and they had no reason to believe otherwise.  It was weird for Ned to say that she would marry a king and Arya recognized that. 

And there's actually symbolism that indicates that Arya will be queen. She chases, catches, and kisses that cat called "black bastard" and "real king of the castle". No Sansa involved in that one. 

There's also the fact that her direwolf is named after a queen and is the ruler of a super huge wolf pack. Hell, GRRM even talked about that during a recent Q&A. What Nymeria does is significant for Arya. They are connected on a deep level. 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Lord_Ravenstone said:

 

He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade. A hunger … he could feel it. It was food he needed, prey, a red deer that stank of fear or a great elk proud and defiant. He needed to kill and fill his belly with fresh meat and hot dark blood. His mouth began to water with the thought.

 

That morning he called it first. “I’m Lord of Winterfell!” he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time,this time, Robb had answered, “You can’t be Lord of Winterfell, you’re bastard-born. My lady mother says you can’t ever be the Lord of Winterfell.”

I thought I had forgotten that. Jon could taste blood in his mouth, from the blow he’d taken.

In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. “Jon, enough,” Halder was shouting, “he’s down, you disarmed him.Enough! ”

No. Not enough. Never enough. Jon let his sword drop. “I’m sorry,” he muttered. “Emmett, are you hurt?”

Iron Emmett pulled his battered helm off. “Was there some part of yield you could not comprehend, Lord Snow?” It was said amiably, though. Emmett was an amiable man, and he loved the song of swords. “Warrior defend me,” he groaned, “now I know how Qhorin Halfhand must have felt.”

That was too much. Jon wrenched free of his friends and retreated to the armory, alone. His ears were still ringing from the blow Emmett had dealt him. He sat on the bench and buried his head in his hands. Why am I so angry? he asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father’s heir.

 

“I am the Lord of Winterfell,” Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off.

Hi there. Not sure... but are you trying to make the case of Jon being the Lord of Winterfell? If so, I do think it could happen, just that he wouldn't take it from his Stark brothers. He has more respect than that. Meaning, either Bran stays stuck in the tree and Rickon is killed, or the younger boys refuse it themselves (Bran goes on to be his dream knight and Rickon is toooo wild, or soemthing). Or the will that Robb wrote determines how things will go.

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16 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I see you 'round the streets here Joan Jett and I usually agree with your take on things. The Jon+Arya thing... I can't see it happening. Major ick factor aside (still raised as siblings) it came across as different to me.

Throughout the story Jon thinks of his mother a lot as well. He has dreams he cannot explain that take him to the crypts under Winterfell, etc., and this is probably his true parentage calling at him.

Arya is very often described as being like Lyanna in looks and attitude. It seems like Jon thinks of Arya so much because of his pull to heritage and who his mother was. Something he desperately craves because it will give him his needed identity (a common theme among the big POV characters). 

Jon doesn't seem the type to either want to take WInterfell or the Iron Throne when he still feels a bastard. He would happily give that up to one of his remaining Stark brothers or sisters if asked of him. There might not even be an IT inthe end. I have a feeling that the dragon fire that made it will end up un-making it. There is also a chance that the North and South will draw a line in the sand and we end up with two kingdoms. I really, truly belive Val will be more important to Jon somewhere in his resurrection and possible "afterlife". He is linking himself and other people are linking him to being more of a wildling as time goes by.

I'm not 100% sure what you are proposing in your OP, so if I missed your point just let me know.

The idea of Jon+Sansa is hilarious! I can imagine Sansa's face wrinkling up at the idea of marrying her bastard brother :tantrum:

Haha that's OK. That's how most people feel about it and I understand. 

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

Ned tells Arya that she will marry a king while he tells Sansa that he will find a good lord for her. Arya said "that's Sansa" because Sansa was literally betrothed to the crowned prince at the time. Everyone thought that that's what Sansa's life was going to be and they had no reason to believe otherwise.  It was weird for Ned to say that she would marry a king and Arya recognized that. 

And there's actually symbolism that indicates that Arya will be queen. She chases, catches, and kisses that cat called "black bastard" and "real king of the castle". No Sansa involved in that one. 

 

 

Hahaha. That was good :D

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11 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

Ned tells Arya that she will marry a king while he tells Sansa that he will find a good lord for her. Arya said "that's Sansa" because Sansa was literally betrothed to the crowned prince at the time. Everyone thought that that's what Sansa's life was going to be and they had no reason to believe otherwise.  It was weird for Ned to say that she would marry a king and Arya recognized that. 

And there's actually symbolism that indicates that Arya will be queen. She chases, catches, and kisses that cat called "black bastard" and "real king of the castle". No Sansa involved in that one. 

 

 

Good find, That doesn't really equate to marrying though. 

It could be just as platonic as romantic. 

And I can't see a scenario where Arya becomes queen. She's too young right now and she's too much of a broken individual. 

Sansa also has the stronger claim than her. 

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9 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hi there. Not sure... but are you trying to make the case of Jon being the Lord of Winterfell? If so, I do think it could happen, just that he wouldn't take it from his Stark brothers. He has more respect than that. Meaning, either Bran stays stuck in the tree and Rickon is killed, or the younger boys refuse it themselves (Bran goes on to be his dream knight and Rickon is toooo wild, or soemthing).

More like just saying that Jon really wants Winterfell and when he resurrects as less of himself, he might try to take it even if there is a legitimate heir around. 

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