Why Blood Raven is not the Three Eyed Crow

[LiveFirstDieLater]

19 minutes ago, Snowisnobastard said:

....Except Brynden Rivers (Bloodraven) has been confirmed to be the man that Bran meets in the cave by both HBO and GRRM. I don't have the time or the need to post a link to prove it but the info is out there, hell it's probably even on the wiki page. Check it out.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahaha

and What is Theon's sisters name?

is Rob's wife dead?

is Sansa married to a Bolton?

Did Jon go to Hardhome and see the Night King leading an army of the dead?

The TV show is not evidence of anything please refrain from referencing it on this thread

 

[Black Crow]

42 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Interesting, although he presumably gave up his arms when he joined the nights watch... Probably one of the dragon shields in the sheildhall at castle black I suppose... His arms were a white dragon on a black field

 

An Ice Dragon to balance a red Fire Dragon

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Just now, Black Crow said:

An Ice Dragon to balance a red Fire Dragon

Haha nice, but it's still breathing red flames on his heraldry unfortunately...

[Jak Scaletongue]

38 minutes ago, Snowisnobastard said:

....Except Brynden Rivers (Bloodraven) has been confirmed to be the man that Bran meets in the cave by both HBO and GRRM. I don't have the time or the need to post a link to prove it but the info is out there, hell it's probably even on the wiki page. Check it out.

@LiveFirstDieLater

He does say "and GRRM" - it's probably in an SSM somewhere. (Might wanna find it when you have some time @Snowisnobastard) But I wouldn't trust the wiki page too much further than HBO.  But HBO is NOT who you wanna reference when trying to make a point.

My internet's going wonky - maybe I'll be back, maybe I won't!

[Jak Scaletongue]

I only pressed the button once, I swear!

[LiveFirstDieLater]

7 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

@LiveFirstDieLater

He does say "and GRRM" - it's probably in an SSM somewhere. (Might wanna find it when you have some time @Snowisnobastard) But I wouldn't trust the wiki page too much further than HBO.  But HBO is NOT who you wanna reference when trying to make a point.

My internet's going wonky - maybe I'll be back, maybe I won't!

Haha I tend to be doubtful of the SSMs too unless it really seems that the GRRM hasn't left himself any wiggle room... For instance if he's talking about the show, bets are off... I'm well aware that in the show BR sure seems like the 3eC... But that doesn't convince me it will be the case in the books.

personally I think the two mediums will go in very different directions from here on out... 

[The Fattest Leech]

Real quick-like 'cuz only have one minute.

I love this topic and will read more when I have a few minutes. I hope I am not repeating what may have already been said. I didn;t have time to read all of the comments so far, but BR is one of my top 3 favorite creatures ever

A few things are always linked to Bloodraven. Black blood and mists (sometimes smoke, but mists). Not only starting in Bran's dream, but all the way back when BR was "alive" in the D&E stories. And then we get this with Mel:

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained.

[The Fattest Leech]

54 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Haha I tend to be doubtful of the SSMs too unless it really seems that the GRRM hasn't left himself any wiggle room... For instance if he's talking about the show, bets are off... I'm well aware that in the show BR sure seems like the 3eC... But that doesn't convince me it will be the case in the books.

personally I think the two mediums will go in very different directions from here on out... 

This is Bloodraven in the show...

I hope this shows up. Sometimes it doesn't.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

23 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Real quick-like 'cuz only have one minute.

I love this topic and will read more when I have a few minutes. I hope I am not repeating what may have already been said. I didn;t have time to read all of the comments so far, but BR is one of my top 3 favorite creatures ever

A few things are always linked to Bloodraven. Black blood and mists (sometimes smoke, but mists). Not only starting in Bran's dream, but all the way back when BR was "alive" in the D&E stories. And then we get this with Mel:

A Dance with Dragons - Melisandre I

A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment … but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained.

I'm glad you brought in the Mel quote, because I hadn't...

I think that this assumption that this is a vision of BR and Bran is pretty safe... You'll notice he doesn't appear as a three eyed crow... He appears as a tree, with red eyes... 

Oh ya, and bones!

[LiveFirstDieLater]

38 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This is Bloodraven in the show...

I hope this shows up. Sometimes it doesn't.

It does, I chuckled...

[Jak Scaletongue]

48 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This is Bloodraven in the show...

I hope this shows up. Sometimes it doesn't.

I remember that commercial!

[Richard Writhen]

14 hours ago, The Snow Bear said:

But hasn't The George kinda confirmed that Bloodraven is the Three-eyed-crow?

It is known.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Black Blood...

it probably deserves a whole topic of its own, but it is used in reference to some pretty varried characters in the series, I don't know if I have a conclusion yet, but it is interesting...

just a few examples are:

the armored figure Bran sees in his dream (I knew I would regret not just using the whole text of the dream...)

Dany's dragon dreams

yoren about benjen (in relation to the watch)

The blood of heart of a stallion that Dany eats

Ned's bandages on his leg

The hands of the wights, and their veins

Rob after the whispering wood

Drogos mortal wound

And that is just in Game of Thrones...

 

 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

"Close your eyes," said the three-eyed crow. "Slip your skin, as you do when you join with Summer. But this time, go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon the hill, and tell me what you see."

Does this count? It's not a SSM or a quote from an interview. Merely sumtin dats written in a book.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

15 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

"Close your eyes," said the three-eyed crow. "Slip your skin, as you do when you join with Summer. But this time, go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon the hill, and tell me what you see."

Does this count? It's not a SSM or a quote from an interview. Merely sumtin dats written in a book.

What's funny here is that it is after the darkness has closed in on Bran... Leaf says the tree will teach him... And he doesn't listen, he ends up looking out of the weirwood in winterfell... Up on the hill are all those trees covered in ice that he saw in his falling dream.

The 3eC also gets quotes here where it never did throughout the dream sequence... Wether this is indicating that the name is what the POV is calling the speaker (think mance/rattleshirt) or something else I don't know... But this one doesn't do it for me, especially as it comes right after the line about Bran pretending BR was the 3eC...

The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.

 

but thank you for using a quote other than "it is known" as evidence... I appreciate the evidence and not immediate dismissal 

[kimim]

10 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

"Close your eyes," said the three-eyed crow. "Slip your skin, as you do when you join with Summer. But this time, go into the roots instead. Follow them up through the earth, to the trees upon the hill, and tell me what you see."

Does this count? It's not a SSM or a quote from an interview. Merely sumtin dats written in a book.

Of course not. That's unreliable, as Brynden as Crow is from Bran's pov, hence unreliable. It goes without saying that Mel's pov, in which Brynden is a tree, is totally, totally reliable.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 minutes ago, kimim said:

Of course not. That's unreliable, as Brynden as Crow is from Bran's pov, hence unreliable. It goes without saying that Mel's pov, in which Brynden is a tree, is totally, totally reliable.

 

I sense a vague wiff of sarcasm...

[Clegane'sPup]

5 minutes ago, kimim said:

Of course not. That's unreliable, as Brynden as Crow is from Bran's pov, hence unreliable. It goes without saying that Mel's pov, in which Brynden is a tree, is totally, totally reliable.

 

[The Fattest Leech]

1. Who "called" Bloodraven to the become the next greenseer? What happened to him/her? Why is there a cave of CotF hooked up to the weirnet in the next cave over? If Bloodraven is the "last greenseer", what happened to the previous greenseers?

2. I am still trying to find the "IT" link that clearly shows Bloodraven not being the 3EC. The OP has some strong clues... and I can see most of them as being possible. It is hard to stay very on-topic in threads like this because the books were built with each little detail linking to another... but I will try... and be forewarned, I make terrible jokes

3. To me, the saying, "How many eyes does Bloodraven have? A thousand eyes in one," is a triple entendre not only for him having just one eye (mushroom sprouts don't count) , and a network of spies, but also as the third "all knowing" eye = The Three-eyed Crow third eye.

4. Full disclosure, I am 99% on board with Jojen paste not only for the symbolism we read about, but BR is turning in to mulch he is looking for a way to re-strengthen himself and his powers. Bran has already been shown to have very strong powers even without training. He can talk through trees!  "And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late." i.e. I'm about to die! It's a conveniently good thing that Coldhands told Bran there is a backdoor three leagues north of the cave entrance just in case someone needs to make a quick escape!

A little later we get this, ""Your blood makes you a greenseer," said Lord Brynden." Yeah, no duh, and it must taste good too! As sweet as lead paint. So Bloodraven could be strengthening Bran's gifts be feeding him Jojen because BR has plans to injest/absorb? Bran's souped up powers himself to prologue his life. Perhaps Brynden Rivers still has an unfulfilled prophecy to see to the end?

4a. In life he was refereed to as a "sinister sorcerer". The old singers that are hooked up to the weirnet in the next cave over, the ones who look at Bran/Hodor and try to speak and it scares Bran, I think they could be being drained of "powers". Could they be the ones Bran sees in his falling vision?: He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid.

5. One thing that keeps stumping me is how Howland Reed fits in to this. It is after Jojen has his greendream and tells his father that his dad sends he and Meera out to find Bran... and the quest begins. Why would he send his only heirs for to do this... especially if Jojen tells his dad he dies. I'm guessing Jojen does not tell Howland or Meera all of what he sees in the dream that sent him to Bran and then to Bloodraven.

6. In addition, during Brynden's life, it was fairly well known that Bloodraven and Shiera Seastar practiced dark arts. It is mentioned in The Mystery Knight that , "something Lord Bloodraven said, about how it was better to be frightening than frightened." So this could actually link Bran talking to Bloodraven during the fall and how Bran feels about Bloodraven while in the cave. Kinda Bloodraven's version of Blue Steel and it's always there.

GRRM has noted much of the Bloodraven inspiration comes from Elric Melnibone. It is said that in life, Bloodraven ruled the kingdom by, ""Make no mistake, 'tis Lord Rivers who rules us, with his spells and spies," which is similar to what I underlined below.

Melniboné (/mɛlnɪˈboʊneɪ/ mel-ni-BO-nay), also known as the Dragon Isle, is an imaginary country, an island featured in the writings of Michael Moorcock. It is the homeland of Elric, one of the incarnations of the Eternal Champion.

Centuries before Elric's birth, Melniboné ruled its world through sorcerous might and sheer power. However, by the time of Elric's birth, it has slipped from its preeminent place, being one of many nations. Its people, the Melnibonéans, are not wholly human, resembling instead the elves of legend — skilled with magic and beautiful, though psychologically similar to cats, with a callous nature. They are bound by many ancient customs.

Melniboné's capital and only surviving city is Imrryr, known as The Dreaming City. Most of the rest of the island has been allowed to revert to wilderness in Elric's time. Caverns exist below the island, in which dragons sleep , awaiting the Melnibonéans' summons to war.(YYEEEAAASSS) (By the way, Bran sees giant "bat" skeletons hanging upside down in the caves, then the next Dany chapter we get, Viserion is hanging upside down in the dungeon "like a bat". check it )

7. The thing that does catch my eye is how Bloodraven does not answer directly if he is the Three Eyed-Crow:

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

"A … crow?" (notice, not THE crow) The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

What's funny here is that it is after the darkness has closed in on Bran... Leaf says the tree will teach him... And he doesn't listen, he ends up looking out of the weirwood in winterfell... Up on the hill are all those trees covered in ice that he saw in his falling dream.

The 3eC also gets quotes here where it never did throughout the dream sequence... Wether this is indicating that the name is what the POV is calling the speaker (think mance/rattleshirt) or something else I don't know... But this one doesn't do it for me, especially as it comes right after the line about Bran pretending BR was the 3eC...

The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.

 

but thank you for using a quote other than "it is known" as evidence... I appreciate the evidence and not immediate dismissal 

Honestly, I don't know much about where Martin is taking this story and hopefully I don't presume to assume something I dun't know'.  Thanks and welcome.

The kid, the Stark kid, who for some reason or another this kid, since the beginning of the book GoT makes it with the help of the Reed kids to this cave inhabited by CotF & Bynden.

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red.

Unless a person has read the Dunk & Egg novella’s they got no idea or info about BR. Except a blurp that comes from Aemon. And I’m not willing to look that up at this time. It is somewhere in the travels of Sam, Gilly & Aemon.

Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood."

(black of garb = NW, black of blood=bastard)

The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black.

"I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams.

If BR had shown Bran what he actually looked like, he would have scared the kid.  Someone in a post used the word avatar (3-eyed crow) as the way BR portrayed himself to Bran. I thought that was a good usage. Third eye, for me translates into the mystical ability to see beyond the BS.

I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. Again, if a person has not read the Dunk & Egg novellas the person does not know the reference.

I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. BR has been looking at the Stark’s a good 35 years or more. Why I do not know.

I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."