Why Blood Raven is not the Three Eyed Crow

[Bran the Shipper]

I feel like this quote,

Quote

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood." The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. "I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams. I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

is the best clue that Bloodraven is not the three-eyed crow.  We should try to decide why he responded in this fashion.  There could be several different reasons, I'll list the ones I came up with.

1. He is the Three-eyed crow, but was required by the plot to instead go off on a character development tangent where we learn he was part of the Night's Watch.

2. He is the Three-eyed crow, but is hard of hearing and didn't quite catch what Bran asked him, which led to a confusing response.

3. He is the Three-eyed crow, but old age has made him senile and he has forgotten that that is how he would have appeared to Bran and Jojen.

4. He is the Three-eyed crow, but due to how the magic works is unaware that he would appear as such to Bran and Jojen.

5. He is the Three-eyed crow, but doesn't want Bran to know that for unknown reasons.

6. He is not the Three-eyed crow, and doesn't know about the three-eyed crow and is thus confused about the question.

7. He is not the Three-eyed crow, but knows about the three-eyed crow and thus tries to dodge the question.

I lean towards 7.  Of the ones I listed where he is the three-eyed crow, 4 makes the most sense but he seems intelligent enough to be able to understand what Bran meant by that question in that case.  And thus would have responded with a "Is that how you saw me?" type of response.

Though if he isn't the three-eyed crow that raises the question of, who is?

[Slowpoke Martin]

In the books, it is not confirmed that Bloodraven is the 3 eyed crow. Bran refers to him as the 3EC but that doesn't make it so. I think George has only confirmed that the person in the cave with 1 red eye is in fact Bloodraven.

The falling dream is very interesting especially when Bran feels the Winterfell weirwood looking at him even though the 3EC is by his side.

Mel doesn't see Bloodraven as a crow but rather as a tree with one thousand eyes.

Another interesting thing that others have not pointed out at all is, was Coldhands an actual guide for Bran or was he sent there to intercept them?

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 hours ago, Bran the Shipper said:

I feel like this quote,

is the best clue that Bloodraven is not the three-eyed crow.  We should try to decide why he responded in this fashion.  There could be several different reasons, I'll list the ones I came up with.

1. He is the Three-eyed crow, but was required by the plot to instead go off on a character development tangent where we learn he was part of the Night's Watch.

2. He is the Three-eyed crow, but is hard of hearing and didn't quite catch what Bran asked him, which led to a confusing response.

3. He is the Three-eyed crow, but old age has made him senile and he has forgotten that that is how he would have appeared to Bran and Jojen.

4. He is the Three-eyed crow, but due to how the magic works is unaware that he would appear as such to Bran and Jojen.

5. He is the Three-eyed crow, but doesn't want Bran to know that for unknown reasons.

6. He is not the Three-eyed crow, and doesn't know about the three-eyed crow and is thus confused about the question.

7. He is not the Three-eyed crow, but knows about the three-eyed crow and thus tries to dodge the question.

I lean towards 7.  Of the ones I listed where he is the three-eyed crow, 4 makes the most sense but he seems intelligent enough to be able to understand what Bran meant by that question in that case.  And thus would have responded with a "Is that how you saw me?" type of response.

Though if he isn't the three-eyed crow that raises the question of, who is?

I had to lay out a similar set of options when I was trying to explain this to myself... and I think I came to the same conclusion... I find it hard to believe that Blood Raven was unaware of how he appeared or that there is a logical reason for him to dodge the question when Bran clearly already thinks BR=3eC...

 

2 hours ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

Another interesting thing that others have not pointed out at all is, was Coldhands an actual guide for Bran or was he sent there to intercept them?

I tried to alude to this, but the saving of Sam at the Weirwood circle may have been less an altruistic good deed and more of him looking for someone to open the gate at the Nightfort and walk Bran through... after all Sam prayed to the Old Gods right before being saved. 

It becomes straight collusion if you start to consider that Blood Raven may be in league with or behind the Others and the wights.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

3 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Honestly, I don't know much about where Martin is taking this story and hopefully I don't presume to assume something I dun't know'.  Thanks and welcome.

 

The kid, the Stark kid, who for some reason or another this kid, since the beginning of the book GoT makes it with the help of the Reed kids to this cave inhabited by CotF & Bynden.

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red.

Unless a person has read the Dunk & Egg novella’s they got no idea or info about BR. Except a blurp that comes from Aemon. And I’m not willing to look that up at this time. It is somewhere in the travels of Sam, Gilly & Aemon.

Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

"A … crow?" The pale lord's voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. "Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood."

(black of garb = NW, black of blood=bastard)

The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black.

"I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you … except in dreams.

If BR had shown Bran what he actually looked like, he would have scared the kid.  Someone in a post used the word avatar (3-eyed crow) as the way BR portrayed himself to Bran. I thought that was a good usage. Third eye, for me translates into the mystical ability to see beyond the BS.

I have watched you for a long time, watched you with a thousand eyes and one. Again, if a person has not read the Dunk & Egg novellas the person does not know the reference.

I saw your birth, and that of your lord father before you. BR has been looking at the Stark’s a good 35 years or more. Why I do not know.

I saw your first step, heard your first word, was part of your first dream. I was watching when you fell. And now you are come to me at last, Brandon Stark, though the hour is late."

 

 

 

First, we've had some back and forths and I want again say I appreciate the honest dissent... even if it seems we often disagree...

Because I hadn't considered that BR might hide his identity to not scare Bran/Jojen...

I still don't buy it, but its an interesting take I hadn't considered... doesn't really explain why BR would dodge the question once Bran was in the cave.

Also, a point of interest for me but I'm not sure what black blood means here but I'm not sure it is bastard blood... just judging by the other uses of it in the series.

Again I think its worth pointing out that BR only uses passive verbs when describing his appearance in Bran's visions. Always, watched, saw, etc, and never spoke to you... or pecked you right in the face...

But, cheers, and again I appreciate the well thought out responce

[Clegane'sPup]

16 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

First, we've had some back and forths and I want again say I appreciate the honest dissent... even if it seems we often disagree...

Because I hadn't considered that BR might hide his identity to not scare Bran/Jojen...

I still don't buy it, but its an interesting take I hadn't considered... doesn't really explain why BR would dodge the question once Bran was in the cave.

Also, a point of interest for me but I'm not sure what black blood means here but I'm not sure it is bastard blood... just judging by the other uses of it in the series.

Again I think its worth pointing out that BR only uses passive verbs when describing his appearance in Bran's visions. Always, watched, saw, etc, and never spoke to you... or pecked you right in the face...

But, cheers, and again I appreciate the well thought out responce

[the trees have eyes]

18 hours ago, Slowpoke Martin said:

In the books, it is not confirmed that Bloodraven is the 3 eyed crow. Bran refers to him as the 3EC but that doesn't make it so. I think George has only confirmed that the person in the cave with 1 red eye is in fact Bloodraven.

The falling dream is very interesting especially when Bran feels the Winterfell weirwood looking at him even though the 3EC is by his side.

Mel doesn't see Bloodraven as a crow but rather as a tree with one thousand eyes.

Another interesting thing that others have not pointed out at all is, was Coldhands an actual guide for Bran or was he sent there to intercept them?

If Bloodraven is not the three-eyed crow then what is the real three-eyed crow doing to get Bran back on track?

If you accept that the three-eyed crow appeared to Bran in multiple dreams over a long period of time, appeared also to Jojen in dreams and clearly enough to communicate to Jojen a purpose of bringing Bran to him across a vast distance for training (all in the text), then you have to wonder what the hell he has been doing since Coldhands and Bloodraven intercepted his pupil and lured him off course.

The three-eyed crow believes there is some dire threat in the Lands of Always Winter that Bran must be tutored to help stave off so he isn't just going to give up on Bran and the world.

So why is he silent and absent?  Particularly as Bran's abilities increase and he can project himself beyond the cave and see through the weirwoods into present and past why has the real three-eyed crow not got an urgent message through to him?

And he had weeks after Bran met Coldhands and before they entered the cave to contact him so the cave being a barrier is not a credible argument.

Seems a glaring omission in this fake identity theory.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

35 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

If Bloodraven is not the three-eyed crow then what is the real three-eyed crow doing to get Bran back on track?

If you accept that the three-eyed crow appeared to Bran in multiple dreams over a long period of time, appeared also to Jojen in dreams and clearly enough to communicate to Jojen a purpose of bringing Bran to him across a vast distance for training (all in the text), then you have to wonder what the hell he has been doing since Coldhands and Bloodraven intercepted his pupil and lured him off course.

The three-eyed crow believes there is some dire threat in the Lands of Always Winter that Bran must be tutored to help stave off so he isn't just going to give up on Bran and the world.

So why is he silent and absent?  Particularly as Bran's abilities increase and he can project himself beyond the cave and see through the weirwoods into present and past why has the real three-eyed crow not got an urgent message through to him?

And he had weeks after Bran met Coldhands and before they entered the cave to contact him so the cave being a barrier is not a credible argument.

Seems a glaring omission in this fake identity theory.

So I tried to address this, but let me recap...

I'm not suggesting that there is some other greenseer out there and Colhands/BloodRaven intercepted Bran... I am suggesting that BloodRaven is not the three eyed crow.

The 3eC shows Bran the "heart of winter", what I postulate is BloodRaven's lair... I do honk he intended Bran to go there, just with a different purpose than BR. Also, I think getting Jojen to come to Bran was important and never read anything to make me think BR was behind that.

The weirwood that Bran dreams of easily could be BR and make all his quotes make sense... 

The 3eC hasn't been quiet, in one dream it really does seem to come try and warn Bran as the Weirwood is trying to speak to him.

Once in the cave the 3eC tells him to look out of the trees up on the hill above... Instead Bran sees out of the Weirwood in winterfell...

So I think you are pretty off base about that part, but it's all easy to miss. I don't know what you are talking about the cave blocking things, that part doesn't make sense to me, the 3eC talks to Bran in the cave... Right after Bran literally says:

He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.

[the trees have eyes]

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So I tried to address this, but let me recap...

I'm not suggesting that there is some other greenseer out there and Colhands/BloodRaven intercepted Bran... I am suggesting that BloodRaven is not the three eyed crow.

The 3eC shows Bran the "heart of winter", what I postulate is BloodRaven's lair... I do honk he intended Bran to go there, just with a different purpose than BR. Also, I think getting Jojen to come to Bran was important and never read anything to make me think BR was behind that.

The weirwood that Bran dreams of easily could be BR and make all his quotes make sense... 

The 3eC hasn't been quiet, in one dream it really does seem to come try and warn Bran as the Weirwood is trying to speak to him.

Once in the cave the 3eC tells him to look out of the trees up on the hill above... Instead Bran sees out of the Weirwood in winterfell...

So I think you are pretty off base about that part, but it's all easy to miss. I don't know what you are talking about the cave blocking things, that part doesn't make sense to me, the 3eC talks to Bran in the cave... Right after Bran literally says:

He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.

I guess I don't follow. The man in the cave is one in a long line of greenseers all of whom are grown into their own trees presumably over countless millenia.  He is tutoring Bran in how to be a greenseer and in this he is aided by the COTF.  The poster I responded to suggested that Coldhands was sent to intercept Bran.  If Jojen and Bran are on a mission to the the three-eyed crow and have been intercepted by someone then it suggests that the guy in the cave is not the guy they were looking for.  If he is the guy they were looking for then he is the three-eyed crow after all, whether or not there is a debate about the ends he is working towards.

Sorry if I missed your point but if you don't feel the guy in the cave is the three-eyed crow - something Jojen doesn't seem to doubt either - then who or what is the three-eyed crow?

The weirwoods are a net for the user to tap into.  It's not that surprising that Bran's vision is connected with the tree he is most familiar with as it is after all in the only home he has known in his short life.

The last part is an 8 year old preferring the dream image of a crow to the reality of a man with a tree growing through him and out of his eye socket which is pretty grisly even for an adult to deal with.

 

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

Nice theory @LiveFirstDieLater - just when you think there can't possibly be any more good new ones without another book 

I wasn't sure where you were going with it when I started reading and then about half way through your post I went "OMG, yes!! Bran is the 3eC and he's talking to himself"  Your examples illustrate this idea really well and I could definitely get on board with this one.

I think the bodies/blood/lives/spirits of the CoTF are what keeps weirnet alive and has done for thousands of years with the occasional human sacrifice to the tree or greenseer added to the roots (like BR).  Those connected directly to the roots have their life force extended by the living wood and their lives give magical properties to the trees in return.  (Maybe something similar is going on with the warlocks/undying and their trees?).  It seems like they want to add Bran to the net and that this relates to some kind of prophecy - BR has watched and waited through several generations of Brans for this one to come.  (The Bran That Was Promised? )

Joining weirnet may not be his destiny.  It would be a real anticlimax as he can't do much there but see, so what purpose would that serve?  It seems like the 3eC wants him to serve some other purpose either before or instead of that.  We're told that time is a very abstract thing when working through weirnet, so it's entirely possible that 3eC is future Bran talking to his current self to make sure he doesn't just plug into the weirwoods, forget and sleep there forever without serving that other purpose.  We are given a parallel with this in being shown multiple times how he gets sidetracked in the warg state and forgets that he has this human body which needs to be nourished.  I think he needed to go to the cave to connect to the weirnet to see the bigger picture but at the same time, he shouldn't stay there.

[Scorpion92]

Hey OP, AMAZING observations!

The more I read your quotes, the more I believe that the Three-Eyed Crow is Bran himself, but from the future. 

Your little quote about Bloodraven NOT knowing how to speak through weirwoods and time actually helped me to jump straight away to a scene between Jon and Bran, where Jon skinchanging Ghost interacts with weirwood tree that actually SPEAKS to him. 

And I think the more we will go through the story, the more we will become sure of that. Remember how you said the Three-Eyed Crow made Bran forget about Jaime? You know why? Because future Bran knows Jaime's importance to protecting his Stark sisters along with Sandor against UnGregor, as we saw from Bran's vision in AGOT. If Bran remembers that it was Jaime BEFORE it is time, it will ruin the future and the result future Bran is expecting.

Plus Coldhands' remark of being "Your monster, Brandon Stark" makes me believe this dead brother of the Night's Watch was a skinchanger himself who got resurrected by future Bran for his mission.

So kudos! Bloodraven is a tool in this story used by Bran to become who he was destined to be, just as Faceless Men are grooming Arya to become whatever she is supposed to be.

I think Bran is the ultimate being of this series. He will have everything to do with White Walker submission to Jon as King of Winter, as Bran will grow more powerful and become able to skinchange into the undead army - the main advantage of ice creatures. Maybe even more.

And I know show is not the same with books, but there is a scene Bran has. Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbGwWZ9sjBQ

"Because the Raven is YOU!" by Jojen Reed.

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

16 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:And I know show is not the same with books, but there is a scene Bran has. Here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbGwWZ9sjBQ

"Because the Raven is YOU!" by Jojen Reed.

Great catch!  I know we can't count on the show to tell the same story, but I could see Jojen (who I don't believe is dead yet in the book) or Meera making him realise that the 3eC is himself.  Bran 'finding' the 3eC is actually Bran discovering his true purpose.

[Flying Cat]

Bran pulling some john connor/hiro shit is sweet! Also the thing about not remembering jaime so he can fulfill his destiny is a nice catch! Kudos to this theory and the good comments on tgis thread, keep it going [emoji111]

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

On Wednesday, 2 March 2016 at 1:57 PM, Regular John Umber said:

Bloodraven has never seemed quite above board to me.

Yes, there's something about that 120-yr old black-magic-practicing string-pulling fratricidal treacherous wizard zombie that I just don't trust.

I haven't read this whole thread yet, and I may be venturing off-topic, but it did make me think of the latest Preston Jacobs videos, in which he speculates that Jaqen H'ghar has been contracted to kill Bloodraven. Now, if Sam unwittingly led Bran into Bloodraven's nefarious arms, then it might be a bitter sort of poetic justice if Jaqen were to kill Sam, assume his form, and return to Castle Black. Thus setting the stage for Jaqen to rescue Bran, which is a fun idea.

Alright, back to reading.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

I guess I don't follow. The man in the cave is one in a long line of greenseers all of whom are grown into their own trees presumably over countless millenia.  He is tutoring Bran in how to be a greenseer and in this he is aided by the COTF.  The poster I responded to suggested that Coldhands was sent to intercept Bran.  If Jojen and Bran are on a mission to the the three-eyed crow and have been intercepted by someone then it suggests that the guy in the cave is not the guy they were looking for.  If he is the guy they were looking for then he is the three-eyed crow after all, whether or not there is a debate about the ends he is working towards.

Sorry if I missed your point but if you don't feel the guy in the cave is the three-eyed crow - something Jojen doesn't seem to doubt either - then who or what is the three-eyed crow?

The weirwoods are a net for the user to tap into.  It's not that surprising that Bran's vision is connected with the tree he is most familiar with as it is after all in the only home he has known in his short life.

The last part is an 8 year old preferring the dream image of a crow to the reality of a man with a tree growing through him and out of his eye socket which is pretty grisly even for an adult to deal with.

 

So here I think you do a good job of putting forward what I will call the classic view of BR and the 3eC, for lack of a better term. And to be clear I don't have any resounding proof to my theory, otherwise it would just be cannon. But hear me out here for a sec...

I think that you've made some assumptions here... First, we don't know that BR (who has been missing for 75years or so, Someone better at the timeline thing is welcome to correct me) is part of long line, we don't know who his teacher was, if he had one other than the children, if he did, what happened to the teacher?

We do see that in another cavern there are a number of children in weirwood thrones, are these greenseers? Odd that they'd call BR "the last greenseer" if there were a room of them just a hop skip and a Hodor over the underground stream... Not to mention, what about Bran?

And it seems to me that Jojen at least has been doing a whole lot of doubting...

Anyway, there seem to be a lot of contradictions going on here, but back to your comments...

I'm suggesting that the A3eC led Bran, and Jojen, North for a reason... But that might not be the same reason Blood Raven wants Bran there.

If,say, BR's lair really is the Heart of Winter, then perhaps the 3eC has brought Bran there not to learn or be the apprentice or be eaten by Blood Raven, but to destroy those responsible for the return of the Others?

As you point out, the journey might be the same so far... But the implications for where the story goes from here are vastly different.

As to who the 3eC crow is, I'm not sure I sold myself on it being future Bran, or some incarnation of the Old Gods (aka an amalgamation of generations of those who went into the trees), or something cool I haven't even heard of, but I have convinced myself that whoever is behind that beak, it isn't Blood Raven

I'm suggesting that while each of these quotes alone can be easily explained away by odd phrasing and a dark wizards senility... Together they may suggest an all together different twist in the works

[LiveFirstDieLater]

3 hours ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

Great catch!  I know we can't count on the show to tell the same story, but I could see Jojen (who I don't believe is dead yet in the book) or Meera making him realise that the 3eC is himself.  Bran 'finding' the 3eC is actually Bran discovering his true purpose.

 

3 hours ago, Scorpion92 said:

Hey OP, AMAZING observations!

The more I read your quotes, the more I believe that the Three-Eyed Crow is Bran himself, but from the future. 

Your little quote about Bloodraven NOT knowing how to speak through weirwoods and time actually helped me to jump straight away to a scene between Jon and Bran, where Jon skinchanging Ghost interacts with weirwood tree that actually SPEAKS to him. 

Thanks guys! Nice strangers on Internet forums are a rare sight and it does not go unappreciated!

So while I've convinced myself that BR isn't the 3eC, I'm still working in my head on it being Bran himself...

so this morning I was considering, and again haven't given this it's due yet so feedback is appreciated, but I may have been looking at that moon in Brans Dance chapters all wrong... There is something odd going on with time here, I mean at first I just assumed it was showing that time was passing. 

The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. The days marched past, one after the other, each shorter than the one before. The nights grew longer. No sunlight ever reached the caves beneath the hill. No moonlight ever touched those stony halls. Even the stars were strangers there. Those things belonged to the world above, where time ran in its iron circles, day to night to day to night to day.

What if the point is that time isn't passing in the cave? We know, ice preserves, and while I think I will try and follow this up with my comparison of BR's lair and the House of the Undying, because I think there are too many parallels to be a coincidence... But remember that when Dany came out almost no time had passed... Anyway, the wheels are still turning over here

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

It seems to me that the parallels between Dany’s brief visit to the House of the Undying and Bran’s current vacation in BloodRaven’s Lair are too numerouse to be coincidental. I’ve listed some of the major ones here:

Both are led there by a servant that is something more, or less, than human. (Pryat Pree / ColdHands) but this servant does not enter with them.

Both locations feature large groves of magical trees (The indigo trees / frozen weirwood grove)

Both locations are full of pint sized creatures (the servitors / the Children)

Both Dany and Bran are fed an odd tasting yet seemingly magical substance that is made from the trees and “lets them see” (Shade of the Evening / Weirwood seed paste)

Both are given instructions not to wander (always the last door on the right / network of caverns)

Both have had many who enter that do not leave (Pryat Pree talks about the front door of the House / the bones)

Both have “living” corpses at their heart (The Undying in the Heart Room / Blood Raven, and the Children, in the Heart Trees)

Both are promised magic and power if they join the occupants (The Undying offer to Dany / Blood Raven’s offer to Bran)

Both see visions, I believe of their respective families, which I don’t want to get to sidetracked but I think are related, both see Jon (Dany’s Rooms and threes / Bran’s seeing through the Heart Tree in Winterfell)

Both have some odd time stuff going on (Dany is only gone for a few moments to those outside / Whatever is going on with Bran)

And of course it shouldn’t have to be said but the Undying seem to deceive and try to eat Dany at the end… LOOK OUT BRAN!

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

 

Thanks guys! Nice strangers on Internet forums are a rare sight and it does not go unappreciated!

So while I've convinced myself that BR isn't the 3eC, I'm still working in my head on it being Bran himself...

Too late, I'm committed to this idea now!  

The passage you quoted about the moon, stars, time etc. I took as meaning that nothing that happened outside the cave had any impact on them inside it.  Kind of like when you're asleep.  Here, like in a dream, you can experience a whole lot of images, experiences, etc. in a short space of time. Same with Dany in HoTU (you're right, there are a lot of parallels).  The inhabitants in both the cave and the HoTU are very old, so they do age with the passing time, they're just holding off death through magic.

I also like LmL's astrology analysis with the moon in its thin, sharp, blade-like state being a reference to sacrifice and blood magic.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

42 minutes ago, Lady Fishbiscuit said:

Too late, I'm committed to this idea now!  

The passage you quoted about the moon, stars, time etc. I took as meaning that nothing that happened outside the cave had any impact on them inside it.  Kind of like when you're asleep.  Here, like in a dream, you can experience a whole lot of images, experiences, etc. in a short space of time. Same with Dany in HoTU (you're right, there are a lot of parallels).  The inhabitants in both the cave and the HoTU are very old, so they do age with the passing time, they're just holding off death through magic.

I also like LmL's astrology analysis with the moon in its thin, sharp, blade-like state being a reference to sacrifice and blood magic.

So I agree that there is a lot of sacrifice imagery surrounding the caves...

Many would say this points toward Jojen paste... A theory that I'm not sold on, but is possible I suppose.

But these are Bran's chapters and I think that it's very possible he is I danger of being sacrificed himself...

 

Ok a little separate, but what the hell is BR up to if he isn't behind the Others? I mean we know he's been creeping on the Starks for a few generations... And watching his own family, though he's unable to speak to him... If I'm right and he isn't the 3eC, then I'm not convinced he can speak through dreams/trees at all.

So I would ask those who still think he is training Bran to fight the Other's or be a savior or something... What power is he gonna give Bran that will help the realms of Man? It could be some special knowledge, but if he's the 3eC why wouldn't he just tell them what they need to know? I mean besides spying on people, have we seen him do anything else that might be helpful... It's not like his is the show where leaf can throw fireballs

Also, it's not a good sign when they tell you you've got special magic blood and bring you to a teacher, but call the teacher the LAST greenseer... Who has been watching your family for years and expecting you... What about Bran? 

"Now you know why you must live!" Winter is coming!

[Clegane'sPup]

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So I agree that there is a lot of sacrifice imagery surrounding the caves...

Many would say this points toward Jojen paste... A theory that I'm not sold on, but is possible I suppose.

But these are Bran's chapters and I think that it's very possible he is I danger of being sacrificed himself...

 

Ok a little separate, but what the hell is BR up to if he isn't behind the Others? I mean we know he's been creeping on the Starks for a few generations... And watching his own family, though he's unable to speak to him... If I'm right and he isn't the 3eC, then I'm not convinced he can speak through dreams/trees at all.

So I would ask those who still think he is training Bran to fight the Other's or be a savior or something... What power is he gonna give Bran that will help the realms of Man? It could be some special knowledge, but if he's the 3eC why wouldn't he just tell them what they need to know? I mean besides spying on people, have we seen him do anything else that might be helpful... It's not like his is the show where leaf can throw fireballs

Also, it's not a good sign when they tell you you've got special magic blood and bring you to a teacher, but call the teacher the LAST greenseer... Who has been watching your family for years and expecting you... What about Bran? 

"Now you know why you must live!" Winter is coming!

I’m merely speculating, not trying to prove or disprove.  BR has been looking at the Starks watching for the warg, skinchanger, greenseer. The “only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger & only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer. BR found who he was looking for, but fate intervened and Jaime tossed Bran from the window ledge. Bran ends up in comma, broken & dying.  If a person cannot eat the body wastes away until finally the heart stops. No modern day medicine in Westeros.

Bran has his first dream, a comma dream that wakes him before he hits the ground (death). The dream you spoke of in your OP (Got c.17). I interpret that dream to mean that BR was pulling Bran back from the brink of death. Fly in the dream I interpret to mean Live.

The quote is: “Now, Bran. Choose. Fly or die.” A really good chapter. I don’t think BR knew that in Bran’s mind he [BR] appeared to look like a three eyed crow (something Bran visualized while in his comatose dream state).

Please take into consideration this is not what I thought when I first read the GoT book, because when I first read the book I was thinking WTF. As the story progressed and more info was added it began to make a bit more sense to me. I also forget stuff that was written, I mis-remember stuff that was written and some stuff still makes no sense to me at all because I get disoriented by way to much information (5 books).

I have my own little pet idea that throughout the years people of north have forgotten things. Like when Eddard talks of wolf blood. He doesn’t think about it the ability to warg. The Starks have crannogmen blood. The CotF lived in among other places crannogs. The Reeds possibly have CotF blood (?).

If I shake the visions of the Reeds of the TV show out of my head, the Reeds are described as not much larger than eight year old Bran, yet Meera is 15/16 years old, and that puts a whole different outlook as to the height of Howland.

Thanks for the topic. Sorry I couldn’t be more specific with some of your questions. We may disagree about whether the three eyed crow is Bloodraven, but hey I am still waiting for books 6 & 7 to sort it out.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

23 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

 

I’m merely speculating, not trying to prove or disprove.  BR has been looking at the Starks watching for the warg, skinchanger, greenseer. The “only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger & only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer. BR found who he was looking for, but fate intervened and Jaime tossed Bran from the window ledge. Bran ends up in comma, broken & dying.  If a person cannot eat the body wastes away until finally the heart stops. No modern day medicine in Westeros.

Thanks for the topic. Sorry I couldn’t be more specific with some of your questions. We may disagree about whether the three eyed crow is Bloodraven, but hey I am still waiting for books 6 & 7 to sort it out.

I've been waiting for over 10 years now to know who the 3eC is so I guess I can wait a little longer... Actually no, can't wait, must speculate wildly...

So the 3eC shows up to Jojen too so it isn't just Bran's imagination that gives it form... If Bran can tell when he is Summer shouldn't BR know when he is a crow?

speaking of Jojen, I think the consensus is that he is really depressed over the fact that he knows he is going to die... I would suggest that it might not be a fear of death, but that he might have fucked up and walked Bran right into the Devil's lair... Abandoning hope after entering there...

Also remember that Jojen just knew the 3eC was north of the wall, it was Coldhands who brought them to the cave. And the 3eC itself never said anything about being a person in a tree.

And it's still really creepy that they call BR the "last greenseer"... Kinda makes me think he plans on outliving Bran...