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Why Blood Raven is not the Three Eyed Crow


LiveFirstDieLater

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First, @LiveFirstDieLater, congrats on the OP and no worries regarding its length. I think you've done a good job of planting doubt in our minds and initiating this discussion. Lots of good points made by contributors too. I never considered the possibility that BR might not be the the 3eC but now after this discussion, I think some intriguing discoveries I made a while ago actually support the idea. They may appear unrelated at first but bear with me: 

Patchface - a while ago I published an essay on Patchface - the fool with many voices. The study does not aim to decipher Patchface's so called prophecies; rather, it is an examination of the nature and structure of his verses. I found they actually form two groups - cryptic 'under the sea' verses and a second group of more coherent songs that lack the sea imagery and are much easier to decipher. Further, the fool does not sing the 'under the sea' group - he only says the words while dancing to a tune only he can hear. In contrast, he actually sings the more coherent verses.I also examine this in terms of his clanging bells, which ring in different voices.  In my conclusion, I suggest the messages he hears come from two different, presumably rivalling sources and I speculate that one of these is an 'entity from the sea, while the other is Bloodraven /CotF. 

Euron Greyjoy - an interesting diabolical character who shows a lot of signs that point towards greenseeing. As a boy, he dreamt of 'flying' and his discussion of 'flying' with Victarion is reminscent of Bran's three-eyed-crow dream:

Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower? No man ever truly knows what he can do unless he dares to leap

His mute crew is remniscent of the mute wights, his dealings with the warlocks recall the comparisons you've made between Dany's experience in the HoBaW and Bran's in the cave etc. There's lots more, too much for a single post. I suggest you read "A black eye shining with malice" by another wordpress blogger for more detail. Now, Euron is known as the "Crow's Eye". His personal sigil is a red eye with a black pupil beneath a black iron crown supported by two crows. 

Recently, he has exchanged his black patch for a red one, suggesting three 'crow eyes' in all. There is also Moqorro's vision of a threat to Dany -  a tall and twisted thing with one black eye and ten long arms, sailing on a sea of blood, which I would attribute to Euron. 

Here we have the vision of a kraken, sigil of the Greyjoys. The kraken is also an 'entity of the sea', so perhaps my postulated 'entity of the sea' in respect of Patchface is the kraken. 

I'm certain that these observations are related and that they imply there is another greenseer out there besides Bloodraven. He could be personified by Euron himself but I think Euron would mirror Bloodraven in this scenario and seeing as BR has Bran as his heir and helper, I would expect Euron to also acquire an heir and helper. So who could this be? The obvious choice would be Rickon with his black direwolf Shaggy. The two brothers parted ways. We have no idea what goes on in Rickon's mind but we do know both he and Bran received the dream regarding Ned's death. Rickon thus also received messages from an unknown entity. We've assumed this could be BR, but I doubt that now. This would be the 3eC that is not BR. Ohsa and Rickon are apparently on Skagos, a dire place of sorcery, cannibalism etc. And the place where an unknown greenseer might be based? Euron, in the near future or someone else connected with him? 

So yes, the OP definitely has merit in my opinion. It's only a matter of figuring it out. 

 

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21 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I've been waiting for over 10 years now to know who the 3eC is so I guess I can wait a little longer... Actually no, can't wait, must speculate wildly...

So the 3eC shows up to Jojen too so it isn't just Bran's imagination that gives it form... If Bran can tell when he is Summer shouldn't BR know when he is a crow?

speaking of Jojen, I think the consensus is that he is really depressed over the fact that he knows he is going to die... I would suggest that it might not be a fear of death, but that he might have fucked up and walked Bran right into the Devil's lair... Abandoning hope after entering there...

Also remember that Jojen just knew the 3eC was north of the wall, it was Coldhands who brought them to the cave. And the 3eC itself never said anything about being a person in a tree.

And it's still really creepy that they call BR the "last greenseer"... Kinda makes me think he plans on outliving Bran...

 

Meera & Jojen show up in CoK c.21. “Both Reeds were slight of build, slender as swords and slightly taller than Bran himself.”  Their lord father [Howland] had sent them to swear/renew an oath that had been made to the Kings of Winter hundreds maybe thousands of years ago. After swearing the oath Jojen’s first question was, “Where are the direwolves?” In this chapter is the first time Jojen says, “This is not the day I die, sister.”

Moving on to c.28, Bran asks Meera where she learned her net-fighting. My father taught me. Makes me wonder if maybe that is how Howland saved Eddard’s life. Meera also says, “Ravens can’t find Greywater Watch, no more that our enemies can.”

Jojen speaks to Bran of a green dream, “ A crow was trying to break through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them.” Jojen also says, “When I  was little I almost died of greywater fever. That is when the crow came to me.” Jojen also says, “The crow sent us here to break your chains.”

“Beyond the Wall.” <snip>  “When Jojen told our lord father what he dreamed he sent us to WF.”

 

All the above info doesn’t prove or disprove whether or not the three-eyed crow Bran envisions is BR. What I am suggesting is that there are 3 ½ books left after reading CoK c.28 until Bran & company get to the cave. There is whole lot of storytelling and weaving taking place before I get to read the part about Sam praying to the old gods and Coldhands showing up to save him, Gilly & the baby and Coldhands asking, “Are you the one.”

Bran seeing a three eyed crow, a vision of the imagination, I'm kinda at a lose for words, could insinuate opening the mind to a mystical knowledge. If that makes sense.

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On March 2, 2016 at 6:44 AM, Kienn said:

"Black blood" is a descriptor for night's watchmen. See Yoren & Benjen.

If you wanted you could stretch it into his Targ blood. Black is the Targ color.

For me the biggest red flag is the way Bloodraven answers when Bran asks if he is the TEC.

GRRM has lots of little dodges like that... by not denying it most people assume it is a confirmation... when really it isn't.

A similar one is the distinction between "White Walkers" and "Others".

Do you mean that you think White Walkers and Others are two different things? I don't think I have ever heard that before.

 

OP, this is a great thread. I don't believe the 3EC and BR are the same either, but I haven't put anywhere as much thought to the idea as you have, it is a great read. 

I believe that the 3EC is Bran himself - or as someone suggested, future Bran. 

I find it very interesting that Bran's crow dream, the ice spires with the impaled dreamers are so similar to BloodRaven's cave. The crow is saying to Bran "fly or die", making me think that the 3EC is telling Bran that he has to be strong and learn how to use his abilities, or he will die in this place.

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Just throwing this out there (if it hasn't been already): how 'bout the COTF as the 3-eyed crow, or rather, the 3-eyed crow as the form that the COTF "weirnet" takes in Bran and Jojen's dreams - perhaps in the dreams of all men they reach. And how 'bout Bloodraven as less the Machiavellian magician calling Bran to his destiny and orchestrating events all over the world, and more as a prisoner and pawn of the weirnet hive-mind? Bloodraven as an intermediary between the weirnet and human minds, to cover their tracks; Bloodraven as a confused slave, kept alive thru black magick and forced to train Bran, human-to-human, being more easy to relate.

This does at least have the benefit of providing a perhaps simpler explanation of how Bloodraven went missing beyond the wall: instead of disappearing to a cave for his own arcane reasons, he was merely captured by the evil COTF hivemind and enslaved.

Like I said, I'm just throwing it out there. But OP, very interesting idea.

(By the way I got that whole weirnet/hivemind thing from the Preston Jacobs videos, worth a look if you haven't seen them)

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On March 6, 2016 at 7:40 AM, LordManderlyAsDragonRider said:

I find it very interesting that Bran's crow dream, the ice spires with the impaled dreamers are so similar to BloodRaven's cave. The crow is saying to Bran "fly or die", making me think that the 3EC is telling Bran that he has to be strong and learn how to use his abilities, or he will die in this place.

All those skulls in BR's lair with weir woods growing through them... If the frozen grove of trees are the ice spikes, then the bones in the cave are almost literally impaled...

Especially creepy since Coldhands doesn't want any seekers following to disturb Bran's bones...

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So, your comment about the "Last Greenseer" seeming a bit sinister to you (a page or two back) made me want to look up the definition of "Last" (cause I'm weird like that!).  Here's what I found:

last

adjective: last

1. coming after all others in time or order; final.

ex: "they caught the last bus"

ex: "the last woman in line"

2. most recent in time; latest.

ex: "last year"

ex: "their last album"

3. only remaining.

ex: "it's our last hope"

adverb: last

1. on the last occasion before the present; previously.

ex: "he looked much older than when I'd last seen him"

2. after all others in order or sequence.

ex: "the two last-mentioned classes"

3. (especially in enumerating points) finally; in conclusion.

ex: "and last, I'd like to thank you all for coming"

noun: last

1. the last person or thing; the one occurring, mentioned, or acting after all others.

ex: "the last of their guests had gone"

ex: "they drank the last of the wine"

 

So, I think the adjective is what we're looking at (please correct me if I'm wrong - I can spell, but my grammar is crap!).  It seems most people assume "Last Greenseer" is implying the 3rd definition under adjective (ex: "only remaining" Greenseer).  But it's absolutely possible that the 2nd definition is applicable also/instead ( ex: "most recent in time" Greenseer).  The noun definition is applicable too (ex: "the one occurring" Greenseer or "the only Greenseer still acting").

But if someone who actually knows their grammar would go over this and take a look that'd be great! LOL!

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11 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

So, your comment about the "Last Greenseer" seeming a bit sinister to you (a page or two back) made me want to look up the definition of "Last" (cause I'm weird like that!).  Here's what I found:

last

adjective: last

1. coming after all others in time or order; final.

ex: "they caught the last bus"

ex: "the last woman in line"

2. most recent in time; latest.

ex: "last year"

ex: "their last album"

3. only remaining.

ex: "it's our last hope"

adverb: last

1. on the last occasion before the present; previously.

ex: "he looked much older than when I'd last seen him"

2. after all others in order or sequence.

ex: "the two last-mentioned classes"

3. (especially in enumerating points) finally; in conclusion.

ex: "and last, I'd like to thank you all for coming"

noun: last

1. the last person or thing; the one occurring, mentioned, or acting after all others.

ex: "the last of their guests had gone"

ex: "they drank the last of the wine"

 

So, I think the adjective is what we're looking at (please correct me if I'm wrong - I can spell, but my grammar is crap!).  It seems most people assume "Last Greenseer" is implying the 3rd definition under adjective (ex: "only remaining" Greenseer).  But it's absolutely possible that the 2nd definition is applicable also/instead ( ex: "most recent in time" Greenseer).  The noun definition is applicable too (ex: "the one occurring" Greenseer or "the only Greenseer still acting").

But if someone who actually knows their grammar would go over this and take a look that'd be great! LOL!

Interesting, however "last" as in "last weekend" implies that the subject has passed... So the "last greenseer" would be like saying the "last king"... Not the one now but the one just before this one.

Thats pretty hard to reconcile with the fact that BR is sitting right there... Unless you think he's just a dead Weirwood puppet, then it makes sense I guess... 

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10 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Interesting, however "last" as in "last weekend" implies that the subject has passed... So the "last greenseer" would be like saying the "last king"... Not the one now but the one just before this one.

Thats pretty hard to reconcile with the fact that BR is sitting right there... Unless you think he's just a dead Weirwood puppet, then it makes sense I guess... 

It just struck me as interesting how many ways one can read the word "Last" and all the different interpretations a single word has.

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17 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

So, your comment about the "Last Greenseer" seeming a bit sinister to you (a page or two back) made me want to look up the definition of "Last" (cause I'm weird like that!).  Here's what I found:

last

adjective: last

1. coming after all others in time or order; final.

ex: "they caught the last bus"

ex: "the last woman in line"

2. most recent in time; latest.

~snipped~

Hey there.

 I, like many others I guess, also read it as the first 2 definitions you posted. To me it seemed that there was one at a time... maybe a little training overlap when the "most current" greenseer calls the next-in-line greenseer to sit the chair because the "most current" greenseer is about to have his/her final death.

Which is why all the CotF who are hooked up to the weirnet in the other cave, who are awake and looking and trying to speak to Bran, why they always confused me. I kinda assumed they were a food/life source for Bloodraven because he does not want to die because he has his own unfinished business to attend to. Yes, the crack may be heavy in my pot, but BR's clues while he was alive give most backing to my ideas.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around who the real 3EC would be if it is not BR. I'm open, but I can't find it yet because if anything, it would make me love Bloodraven more  :dunno:

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2 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

It just struck me as interesting how many ways one can read the word "Last" and all the different interpretations a single word has.

Ahhh english, a beautiful bastard of a language

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2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hey there.

 I, like many others I guess, also read it as the first 2 definitions you posted. To me it seemed that there was one at a time... maybe a little training overlap when the "most current" greenseer calls the next-in-line greenseer to sit the chair because the "most current" greenseer is about to have his/her final death.

Which is why all the CotF who are hooked up to the weirnet in the other cave, who are awake and looking and trying to speak to Bran, why they always confused me. I kinda assumed they were a food/life source for Bloodraven because he does not want to die because he has his own unfinished business to attend to. Yes, the crack may be heavy in my pot, but BR's clues while he was alive give most backing to my ideas.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around who the real 3EC would be if it is not BR. I'm open, but I can't find it yet because if anything, it would make me love Bloodraven more  :dunno:

So it's an interesting question as to wether BR is subverting the Chidren and using them for his own ends...

Or maybe the Children are just using BR for their ends... Hell, maybe even just using his body as a puppet to talk to Bran...

Or maybe they are working together...

I don't think we really know enough to answer these questions...

But whatever they are up to I just don't believe it's all for the "greater good"... And I think they/he/it are associated with the return of the others...

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On 2 March 2016 at 2:30 PM, Regular John Umber said:

The appendices reflect what the characters know. Joffrey is listed as Robert Baratheon's son, for instance. So the appendix is going to show what the relevant characters believe to be true.

Nobody in the novels refers to the man in the cave as Bloodraven though, so it can't reflect that knowledge

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56 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Nobody in the novels refers to the man in the cave as Bloodraven though, so it can't reflect that knowledge

The old Lord Dustin (of Red Stallion fame) is listed in the appendix of Dance with Dragons with a first name William...

The name William never appears in the text in reference to anyone...

I would consider the appendix a general reference but it clearly cannot be considered 100% accurate... As was pointed out above, there is misinformation.

So it's hard to know how far it can be trusted in regards things we have no corroborating evidence for

Of course the Dunk and Egg stories make BloodRaven's identity pretty clear...

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On 04/03/2016 at 1:38 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

So here I think you do a good job of putting forward what I will call the classic view of BR and the 3eC, for lack of a better term. And to be clear I don't have any resounding proof to my theory, otherwise it would just be cannon. But hear me out here for a sec...

I think that you've made some assumptions here... First, we don't know that BR (who has been missing for 75years or so, Someone better at the timeline thing is welcome to correct me) is part of long line, we don't know who his teacher was, if he had one other than the children, if he did, what happened to the teacher?

We do see that in another cavern there are a number of children in weirwood thrones, are these greenseers? Odd that they'd call BR "the last greenseer" if there were a room of them just a hop skip and a Hodor over the underground stream... Not to mention, what about Bran?

And it seems to me that Jojen at least has been doing a whole lot of doubting...

Anyway, there seem to be a lot of contradictions going on here, but back to your comments...

I'm suggesting that the A3eC led Bran, and Jojen, North for a reason... But that might not be the same reason Blood Raven wants Bran there.

If,say, BR's lair really is the Heart of Winter, then perhaps the 3eC has brought Bran there not to learn or be the apprentice or be eaten by Blood Raven, but to destroy those responsible for the return of the Others?

As you point out, the journey might be the same so far... But the implications for where the story goes from here are vastly different.

As to who the 3eC crow is, I'm not sure I sold myself on it being future Bran, or some incarnation of the Old Gods (aka an amalgamation of generations of those who went into the trees), or something cool I haven't even heard of, but I have convinced myself that whoever is behind that beak, it isn't Blood Raven

I'm suggesting that while each of these quotes alone can be easily explained away by odd phrasing and a dark wizards senility... Together they may suggest an all together different twist in the works

I suppose I am a bit annoyed by Bloodraven in general as unless you have read the side novels there is no such person in universe, living or dead, so a lot of the debates about his identity and his motives rely on information outside the ASOIAF story and outside the possibility of the characters' knowledge.  Now we can't unlearn things we have learned from separate stories but if we ignore them and stick to the main story as I believe it is meant to be read then its not so hard to see the 3EC as a greenseer who has reached out to Bran for the purpose of training him in his abilities.  The Prologue and first Bran chapters happen in a short span of writing in AGOT and seem to set up the arc that Bran has been on ever since.

We obviously know very little about TCOTF, the weirwoods and greenseers but what GRRM has shown in ADWD seems to support that the Old Gods are actually a kind of sentient entity made up of an accumulation of the minds and experiences of greenseers - intitially Children only, perhaps later men too as the First Men adopted the weirwood religion - and that the greenseers are bound into the trees in a rather gruesome symbiotic fashion to benefit from and reinforce the weirwoods' magic.  Perhaps there were many such focal points as the cave in the past when the weirwood groves and the TCOTF were more prevalent (Isle of Faces?) perhaps the cave has always been their key shrine.  The greenseers seem to gradually lose themselves in or literally decay into the weirwood roots over time with some of the dreamers in the cave being mere skeletons, others perhaps still alive in some fashion but further transfused than the 3EC (I'll call Bran's tutor that for simplicity).  Perhaps the "throning" on the weirwood roots is only meant to happen at the end of the greenseer's life to prevent his knowledge and abilities being lost rather than at the start of his life and as a price to be paid for knowledge and training.  And perhaps Bran is only here now as TCOTF and greenseers have become so rare that no living COTF is a greenseer and the only possible living tutor for Bran, the 3EC, is so far along in life that he has already been throned and is quite thoroughly bound into his tree root.  Anyway it seems that the 3EC would have been tutored by one of the other COTF greenseers, presumably in the cave and most likely after they had been throned. Not necessarily so as the wights and Others seem to have returned only very recently but as greenseers are rare and the COTF long-lived it seems likely that the last COTF greenseer discovered and summoned the 3EC from the NW the way the 3EC later found and summoned Bran.

Calling the 3EC the last greenseer seems to me really an admisison that the COTF are dying out rather than anything more sinister.  Their numbers are vanishingly few and they are already believed to be a myth by all of Westeros (despite Sam finding NW records that the NW traded with them a few hundred years ago).  If only 1 in a million can be a greenseer then its a numbers game and the last COTF greenseers are passing into the weirwoods in the cave (and elsewhere?) with the 3EC, a rare human greenseer, the only greenseer with enough self-awareness left to still communicate with outsiders.  That seems the basis for calling him the last.  The others have, in a warg sense, lost themselves in the weirwoods but their final death is not absolute as they are preserved in some fashion in the weirnet.

Bran is an interesting point if after all he is supposed to become a greenseer then the 3EC can't be the last.  But that is open to interpretation.  When I join a queue I'm last in line...until someone else comes in and joins the line behind me.  Given how rare greenseers are its possible that the 3EC has been the "last" for, say 50 years?  And perhaps Bran's destiny will not be to sit in the cave and gradually disappear by osmosis but to do something more active in the struggle.  I think the point is that the 3EC is not omnipotent and that he needs Bran for something other than just being a greenseer.  Otherwise greeseers literally would be gods and be able to solve all these issues themselves.

The idea of the 3EC being future Bran is an interesting one but it makes Bran's whole path pre-ordained with this literally god-like protector deciding what (and what not) to tell him and when to ensure he fulfills his destiny.  On balance I find it more likely that the 3EC is the guy in the cave and that a greenseer's powers aren't so god-like, just more subtle and mystical and in keeping with the magic GRRM weaves in to the story.

On 04/03/2016 at 9:17 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I've been waiting for over 10 years now to know who the 3eC is so I guess I can wait a little longer... Actually no, can't wait, must speculate wildly...

So the 3eC shows up to Jojen too so it isn't just Bran's imagination that gives it form... If Bran can tell when he is Summer shouldn't BR know when he is a crow?

speaking of Jojen, I think the consensus is that he is really depressed over the fact that he knows he is going to die... I would suggest that it might not be a fear of death, but that he might have fucked up and walked Bran right into the Devil's lair... Abandoning hope after entering there...

Also remember that Jojen just knew the 3eC was north of the wall, it was Coldhands who brought them to the cave. And the 3eC itself never said anything about being a person in a tree.

And it's still really creepy that they call BR the "last greenseer"... Kinda makes me think he plans on outliving Bran...

 

Yes, I always took Jojen's depression as knowing the day he will de and believing it is coming soon.  Not that I buy into Jojenpaste at all but he does seem to have given up.  If he went all the way from Greywater Watch to Winterfell, then the Wall and then the cave I don't think he would give up if he thought he had failed, he would be trying to put it right and warning Meera and Bran that this is a trap.  Rather he seems to think he has accomplished his purpose and now must face his inevitable fate.  Poor lad.

The cave and a symbiotic relationship with a tree root seems a hard sell to an 8 year old who hopes the 3EC will restore his legs so he can still become a knight.  There is defintiely a PR issue here which is better off dealt with by a common-speaking Leaf and other COTF and a face to face explanation from the scary guy in the tree rather than giving Bran nightmares while he is in WF and trying to decide what to do.

I dunno about the "last" bit.  The "Last Hero" was not the final hero to ever exist just the last one avilalable to do the job and there have been and will be more heroes.  It could just be perspective.  Or maybe TCOTF are dying out and so there will be no more true greenseers, Bran playing a different role or having a more anomalous status and avoiding the tree root fate.  Or perhaps Bran dies in the bittersweet ending and the 3EC is the last and final greenseer.  It doesn't have to be quite so sinister.

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The Last Hero was the last hero of the Age of Heroes though... And the last of his twelve companions...

But I guess the idea that BR is the last greenseer, as in the previous one to Bran would make sense...

But my point stands, I don't think that the talking corpse in the tree under the hill, BloodRaven, Brynden Rivers, The Last Greenseer, whatever you want to call him... Appeared to Bran and Jojen as a three eyed crow in a dream... If I had to guess I'd say that he appears as a weirwood tree, like the wooden face Mel sees in her fire surrounded by skulls.

The true identity of the three eyed crow is, I believe, still a mystery. It could be some combination of ancestors consciousnesses speaking through a 3eC avatar of sorts, it could be Bran in the future speaking back to himself, it could be the Children of the Forrest, it could even be someone we don't know, or an old name out of a legend.

But I really don't think it can be Blood Raven. 

 

A a little off topic but you mentioned Jojen and the Jojen paste theory... Leaf says the weirwood paste is made from the seeds... Do we ever have another reference to weirwood seeds? I mean the trees have leaves, so pinecones don't fit... Do they have fruit? What kind of seeds are we talking? Not a nut tree I guess... Maybe I missed it but I'm not sure we have the answer. Or rather the answer I'm suggesting/toying with might be rather dark...

For comparisons sake, what is shade of the evening made from? Seeds?

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49 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

<snip>

A a little off topic but you mentioned Jojen and the Jojen paste theory... Leaf says the weirwood paste is made from the seeds... Do we ever have another reference to weirwood seeds? I mean the trees have leaves, so pinecones don't fit... Do they have fruit? What kind of seeds are we talking? Not a nut tree I guess... Maybe I missed it but I'm not sure we have the answer. Or rather the answer I'm suggesting/toying with might be rather dark...

For comparisons sake, what is shade of the evening made from? Seeds?

:blink:I know I shouldn’t say it, but I lack impulse control sometimes when my sense of humor gets tickled. I need to call a horticulturist or a botanist.

What is your dark suggestion? :unsure:

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Interesting and well-reasoned. Kudos.

It happens I agree, but I arrived at that conclusion by a different route- namely that ravens simply aren't crows. They behave very differently, just as from what I've seen of BR in ADwD and Dunk and Egg and the 3EC. Crows can be found most often near people, ravens not as much; crows are very social, ravens not so much; and of course size, aggression and diet.

So- who is the 3EC? As speculated in the OP, Bran himself in one form or another is a good choice as is one of the root-enshrouded CotF in the depths of the cave. I'm not ruling out Quaithe, who has a glass candle.

Two more tinfoil-esque possibilites "center" around that third eye:

What if it is Euron? I can't imagine why or how but his chosen moniker makes it at least worth pondering.

How about Mors Umber? We have one crow stealing an eye and then another just happens to show up with an extra orb. It sounds significant but I'm not sure of what.

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On 4/3/2016 at 3:20 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

 

Thanks guys! Nice strangers on Internet forums are a rare sight and it does not go unappreciated!

So while I've convinced myself that BR isn't the 3eC, I'm still working in my head on it being Bran himself...

so this morning I was considering, and again haven't given this it's due yet so feedback is appreciated, but I may have been looking at that moon in Brans Dance chapters all wrong... There is something odd going on with time here, I mean at first I just assumed it was showing that time was passing. 

The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. The days marched past, one after the other, each shorter than the one before. The nights grew longer. No sunlight ever reached the caves beneath the hill. No moonlight ever touched those stony halls. Even the stars were strangers there. Those things belonged to the world above, where time ran in its iron circles, day to night to day to night to day.

What if the point is that time isn't passing in the cave? We know, ice preserves, and while I think I will try and follow this up with my comparison of BR's lair and the House of the Undying, because I think there are too many parallels to be a coincidence... But remember that when Dany came out almost no time had passed... Anyway, the wheels are still turning over here

 

Such a great observation! But a red sun rises and sets...

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