Why Blood Raven is not the Three Eyed Crow

[hiemal]

15 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The app confirmed that Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven is the Three-Eyed Crow. 

Spoilsport.

lol

 

[Kienn]

25 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The app confirmed that Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven is the Three-Eyed Crow. 

App also confirms Eddard Stark is Jon's father.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

33 minutes ago, Kienn said:

App also confirms Eddard Stark is Jon's father.

There's a difference between false information set up at the start of the series to hide a big reveal later, and adding in information that had been lacking before.

False fronts established in book one must be maintained. There was never any lie about the identity of ye olde Three-Eyed Crow.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

47 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Such a great observation! But a red sun rises and sets...

In the east or the west? Sorry, asking for a friend, she's going through some shit... That sun doesn't have a son by any chance? Never mind...

I mean I think it's clear that time is passing, just its an odd distinction between outside and inside the cave.

The days are growing shorter, winter is coming.

Also, side note, the "iron circles" reminds me so much of the iron crowns of the Kings of Winter...

[Meera of Tarth]

14 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

In the east or the west? Sorry, asking for a friend, she's going through some shit... That sun doesn't have a son by any chance? Never mind...

I mean I think it's clear that time is passing, just its an odd distinction between outside and inside the cave.

The days are growing shorter, winter is coming.

Also, side note, the "iron circles" reminds me so much of the iron crowns of the Kings of Winter...

I think time passes inside and outside the cave, because the sun roses and sets inside the cave. The answer is how. It's different, but still happens. The red sun from the cave rose and set, and the sun from outside the cave rose and set too. But inside the cave, Bran always sees that crescent moon. The world from the cave may be all an illusion, something magical, because he notices some strange things there: dark clouds that turned into storms, and that crescent moon.

Quote

The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. The days marched past, one after the other, each shorter than the one before. The nights grew longer. No sunlight ever reached the caves beneath the hill. No moonlight ever touched those stony halls. Even the stars were strangers there. Those things belonged to the world above, where time ran in its iron circles, day to night to day to night to day.

I wonder if time inside the caves may pass slowly  faster than outide. He notices that days seem to be shorter, so probably a day inside the cave may be several days outside. 

That reminds me of Goku from Dragon Ball training in the Room of Time, LOL

[LiveFirstDieLater]

14 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

There's a difference between false information set up at the start of the series to hide a big reveal later, and adding in information that had been lacking before.

False fronts established in book one must be maintained. There was never any lie about the identity of ye olde Three-Eyed Crow.

According to you! Don't you find this sort of excuse kind of arbitrary and unfounded?

It seems to me that the appendix reflects the "common opinion".  Things like Jon or Jeof's parents are the public knowledge and probably not "fact". 

There is no reason to think the rest of it is 100% accurate... I'm not saying every name is wrong, but I'd be surprised if there isn't one or more misleading bits of information masquerading as fact in there.

 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

According to you! Don't you find this sort of excuse kind of arbitrary and unfounded?

It seems to me that the appendix reflects the "common opinion".  Things like Jon or Jeof's parents are the public knowledge and probably not "fact". 

There is no reason to think the rest of it is 100% accurate... I'm not saying every name is wrong, but I'd be surprised if there isn't one or more misleading bits of information masquerading as fact in there.

 

Not according to me. According to the text and the app. By the way, that's not short for appendix. There was a mobile computer application (abbreviated app) released a while back that included information not yet confirmed in the books, like Jojen Reed still being alive--to the dismay of Jojen Paste Theory devotees.  

Bloodraven being the TEC is not "common opinion" in the books, nor was it even a very popular theory prior to the app coming out. Some people who had read the D&E stories had their suspicions about it being Brynden Rivers, but there was nothing else to indicate it until the app was released and said that it is him.  

Jon not being Ned's son is set up nicely starting in the first book, and the clues point to him being Lyanna Stark's son, and possibly Rhaegar Targaryen's as well. Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen being Jaime's children is outright stated in the text (and while I agree that in real life it would be unlikely that none of the kids were Robert's, it's been established within the storyworld that it's a fact that all three are Jaime's). There are no comparable cover-ups or trails of clues about out TEC.

Oh, and in answer to your question, no I do not find this reasoning to be either arbitrary or unfounded. 

[Clegane'sPup]

20 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think time passes inside and outside the cave, because the sun roses and sets inside the cave. The answer is how. It's different, but still happens. The red sun from the cave rose and set, and the sun from outside the cave rose and set too. But inside the cave, Bran always sees that crescent moon. The world from the cave may be all an illusion, something magical, because he notices some strange things there: dark clouds that turned into storms, and that crescent moon.

I wonder if time inside the caves may pass slowly  faster than outide. He notices that days seem to be shorter, so probably a day inside the cave may be several days outside. 

That reminds me of Goku from Dragon Ball training in the Room of Time, LOL

I kinda think that Bran has knowledge of what is happening outside the cave because he wargs Summer when Summer goes out hunting and skin changes a raven that fly’s with the murder.

The moon was full and fat. Summer prowled through silent woods <snip>

As a raven he flew with the murder, circling the hill at sunset, watching for foes, feeling the icy touch of the air.

The passage of time is the same inside and outside the cave. Bran had even tried to mark the passage of days but he gave up.

I think, due to the 8 references in c.34 of the waxing and waning of the moon, Bran & company have been in the torch lit cave approximately 30+ days.

[Scorpion92]

1 hour ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Not according to me. According to the text and the app. By the way, that's not short for appendix. There was a mobile computer application (abbreviated app) released a while back that included information not yet confirmed in the books, like Jojen Reed still being alive--to the dismay of Jojen Paste Theory devotees.  

Bloodraven being the TEC is not "common opinion" in the books, nor was it even a very popular theory prior to the app coming out. Some people who had read the D&E stories had their suspicions about it being Brynden Rivers, but there was nothing else to indicate it until the app was released and said that it is him.  

Jon not being Ned's son is set up nicely starting in the first book, and the clues point to him being Lyanna Stark's son, and possibly Rhaegar Targaryen's as well. Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen being Jaime's children is outright stated in the text (and while I agree that in real life it would be unlikely that none of the kids were Robert's, it's been established within the storyworld that it's a fact that all three are Jaime's). There are no comparable cover-ups or trails of clues about out TEC.

Oh, and in answer to your question, no I do not find this reasoning to be either arbitrary or unfounded. 

I still don't see the difference. Jon is set up as Ned's son since first book, and Bloodraven is set up as Three Eyed Crow since he showed up. Does not mean that both facts are correct.

I see no textual evidence where Bloodraven is CONFIRMED as Three Eyed Crow. Bran outright comes and asks him: "Are you Three Eyed Crow?" to which Bloodraven replies "I have been called many things", which is not a confirmation in my books.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

2 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Not according to me. According to the text and the app. By the way, that's not short for appendix. There was a mobile computer application (abbreviated app) released a while back that included information not yet confirmed in the books, like Jojen Reed still being alive--to the dismay of Jojen Paste Theory devotees.  

Bloodraven being the TEC is not "common opinion" in the books, nor was it even a very popular theory prior to the app coming out. Some people who had read the D&E stories had their suspicions about it being Brynden Rivers, but there was nothing else to indicate it until the app was released and said that it is him.  

Jon not being Ned's son is set up nicely starting in the first book, and the clues point to him being Lyanna Stark's son, and possibly Rhaegar Targaryen's as well. Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen being Jaime's children is outright stated in the text (and while I agree that in real life it would be unlikely that none of the kids were Robert's, it's been established within the storyworld that it's a fact that all three are Jaime's). There are no comparable cover-ups or trails of clues about out TEC.

Oh, and in answer to your question, no I do not find this reasoning to be either arbitrary or unfounded. 

I'm sorry I thought this was a thread about the books... If you want to discuss web applications please do so elsewhere... That thing is so full of bullshit I don't know where to start...

"common opinion" for the characters in the books not the reader...

But if it took the app to help you put "a thousand eyes and one", a one eyed albino, Brynden, together with BloodRaven then I dont know what to tell you. Much as if you missed the fact that Blood Raven had no fucking idea what Bran meant when he asked if BR was the three eyed crow, you are probably a lost cause.

I am arguing that there is a comparable trail of clues, you just don't agree... the three eyed crow was in the first book and there are lots of breadcrumbs about it continuing through the rest of the series... One might argue that Bran is in fact a more important character than Jon, but one can't deny that the series's first POV chapter is Bran's. Also, the Jeof example is nice in that we have quotes where people call him Baratheon, and as you point out, Cersei saying that he is Jaime's. I think we both agree that all three were fathered by Jaime, and yet... 

Wait, how again exactly is the 3eC identity different than Jeof or Jon's parentage identity question? I mean besides that you believe the app when it suits you?

Please reasses your logic

[LiveFirstDieLater]

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I kinda think that Bran has knowledge of what is happening outside the cave because he wargs Summer when Summer goes out hunting and skin changes a raven that fly’s with the murder.

The moon was full and fat. Summer prowled through silent woods <snip>

As a raven he flew with the murder, circling the hill at sunset, watching for foes, feeling the icy touch of the air.

The passage of time is the same inside and outside the cave. Bran had even tried to mark the passage of days but he gave up.

I think, due to the 8 references in c.34 of the waxing and waning of the moon, Bran & company have been in the torch lit cave approximately 30+ days.

Interesting, when I first read it I thought describing the moon the same reflected a month passing...

now im mostly confused about all the time references, but it's worth remembering that he lack of sun and moon and stars is reflected all the way back in that first falling dream...

the failing to mark the days just messes with me more...

[LiveFirstDieLater]

45 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

I still don't see the difference. Jon is set up as Ned's son since first book, and Bloodraven is set up as Three Eyed Crow since he showed up. Does not mean that both facts are correct.

I see no textual evidence where Bloodraven is CONFIRMED as Three Eyed Crow. Bran outright comes and asks him: "Are you Three Eyed Crow?" to which Bloodraven replies "I have been called many things", which is not a confirmation in my books.

Agree, not in my book(s) either!!!

[LiveFirstDieLater]

21 hours ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I think time passes inside and outside the cave, because the sun roses and sets inside the cave. The answer is how. It's different, but still happens. The red sun from the cave rose and set, and the sun from outside the cave rose and set too. But inside the cave, Bran always sees that crescent moon. The world from the cave may be all an illusion, something magical, because he notices some strange things there: dark clouds that turned into storms, and that crescent moon.

I wonder if time inside the caves may pass slowly  faster than outide. He notices that days seem to be shorter, so probably a day inside the cave may be several days outside. 

That reminds me of Goku from Dragon Ball training in the Room of Time, LOL

I'm wondering if we focused on the time too much and the important bit might be the daylight...

I mean here we have them hiding down in the darkness untouched by the light of the sun, moon, or stars...

maybe if there was some kind of Long Night they would come out and play...

[Meera of Tarth]

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I kinda think that Bran has knowledge of what is happening outside the cave because he wargs Summer when Summer goes out hunting and skin changes a raven that fly’s with the murder.

The moon was full and fat. Summer prowled through silent woods <snip>

As a raven he flew with the murder, circling the hill at sunset, watching for foes, feeling the icy touch of the air.

The passage of time is the same inside and outside the cave. Bran had even tried to mark the passage of days but he gave up.

I think, due to the 8 references in c.34 of the waxing and waning of the moon, Bran & company have been in the torch lit cave approximately 30+ days.

I need a re-read. I thought than when he wargs Summer and the raven it was inside the cave.

[Meera of Tarth]

39 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I'm wondering if we focused on the time too much and the important bit might be the daylight...

I mean here we have them hiding down in the darkness untouched by the light of the sun, moon, or stars...

maybe if there was some kind of Long Night they would come out and play...

Yes, certainly. The text focus a lot in the darkness

[LiveFirstDieLater]

10 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

Yes, certainly. The text focus a lot in the darkness

Ya I mean that wasn't revolutionary haha, just still thinking about all this nonsense in my spare time... And the more I do the less I think BR could be any sort of "good" guy

[Clegane'sPup]

20 minutes ago, Meera of Tarth said:

I need a re-read. I thought than when he wargs Summer and the raven it was inside the cave.

Bran's useless body may be in the torch lit cave but the boy runs with the wolves and flies with the ravens outside the cave.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

9 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

 

Quote function is messed up. Scorpion, the difference is that we're outright given the lie in Jon's case, and then the clues that it's not true and an understanding of why the character living the lie would do so. We are NOT given any outright lie about the 3EC, nor any such information on why GRRM would want anyone to think 3EC is someone he isn't. No we don't have absolute confirmation strictly from the text that Bloodraven is the 3EC, but we don't really have enough evidence to conclude otherwise either, unlike with Jon where there's a boatload of "he's not Ned's" symbolism all over the series.

LiveFirstDieLater, ditch the smug attitude. It's unbecoming. The suggestion you make is based on your opinions of what the text might suggest. But you seem to have a problem with someone suggesting you might be wrong and bringing outside information to the discussion. If you don't want to accept information put out on an official app that had the author's approval, that's your decision. Likewise if you prefer to limit the discussion to what's actually in the books, it's your call. There is however, no reason not to be polite about such things.

You claim the app is full of "bullshit." How do you know that when you clearly were not aware that it even existed, as evidenced by the fact that you thought I was talking about the appendices in the books?

No, it didn't take the app to help me figure out anything. If you interpret Bloodraven's reaction to mean he had no clue what Bran was talking about when he asked about the 3EC, that's fine.  But implying that anyone who disagrees with you is a "lost cause" is both unnecessary and impolite. Not to mention the presumption you are happy to display in guessing at the way my mind works, what I think, or what influences my conclusions. 

If you had built your response around the point that we disagree on interpretation, I would have been content to let the discussion die because I'm all for looking at the text as in-depth and creatively as possible. But you decided to be condescending and rude instead.

Please reassess your manners.

[Slowpoke Martin]

Bloodraven being the 3 eyed crow is not confirmed by neither Bloodraven himself or the children of the forest. Only Bran's group refers to him as the 3EC nobody else and whenever someone refers to him as the 3EC it is usually played off like an insignificant mention.

Also take into consideration that the 3 eyed crow appeared in the first book with crow symbolism and all of Bloodraven's back story is completely loaded with nothing but raven symbolism. That is a very drastic change in symbolism considering how much George depends on it and for a character who supposedly was being set up in the first book.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

My posts have been censored and I have been chastised for being uncivil...

So I'll just leave this quote here because it seems relevant to this:

A Game of Thrones - Bran IV 

"It was just a lie," he said bitterly, remembering the crow from his dream. "I can't fly. I can't even run."

"Crows are all liars," Old Nan agreed, from the chair where she sat doing her needlework. "I know a story about a crow." 

"I don't want any more stories," Bran snapped, his voice petulant. He had liked Old Nan and her stories once. Before. But it was different now. They left her with him all day now, to watch over him and clean him and keep him from being lonely, but she just made it worse. "I hate your stupid stories."