Most Terrible Act Since the Conquest?

[LadyoftheNorth72]

15 hours ago, Raisin' Bran said:

Massacre at Saltpans. Pretty bad.

Ramsay hunting, raping, killing, and flaying those girls. Not always in that order. 

I'd have to agree with Saltpans. Even though we as readers are not given a long grisly description, the fact that it was able to shock the hell out of everyone (and these all people living in a region already torn to shreds by the war) tells me all I want or need to know. 

[TimJames]

6 hours ago, RobOsevens said:

Not trolling but who decides what the universal ethic is that applies to all people? 

According to Philosophy Basics (the website I linked to in my earlier post), "The source or justification of this system is variously claimed to be human nature, a shared vulnerability to suffering, the demands of universal reason, common themes among existing moral codes, or the mandates of religion".

Additionally, pretty much all International Law is working under an assumption of Moral Universialism. This is because The United Nations and its laws were founded in the immediate aftermath of The Second World War.

Pretty much all of the atrocities that occurred in WWII (mass-murder of civilians based on ethnicity, sacking cities, execution of enemy POWs, rapes, looting, etc.) had all occurred in the past in some form or other and had been excused. "That's just what war is like", "it will demoralize and strike fear into our enemies", "it's revenge, so therefore just", "it's impossible to win a war honorably", "our cause is just, so therefore our methods of perusing it are excusable", "everyone does it, so we should too", etc. Not only are these reasons all wrong (it turns out being excessively brutal towards enemies inspires more hatred than fear, turns enemies into fanatics, and ensures they will not be kind to you if you are defeated). But when these medieval atrocities were taken to their logical extremes, it was such a wake-up call to Human Civilization that the first action of the United Nations was to say "These acts are anti-humanity! They will be tolerated no longer, and they should never have been accepted to begin with!".

 The Nuremberg Principals state in article VI: 

"The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law: 
(a) Crimes against peace: 
(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances; (ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i). 
(b) War crimes:
Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave labor or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity. 
(c) Crimes against humanity:
Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime."

While the UN isn't always able to live up to its promises, that does not mean those promises should be abandoned. I said it before and I'll say it again: without ethics, humans are nothing more than animals.

[TimJames]

RobOsevens, if I seem a little passionate about this, it is because I am still a bit sore.

Over the last three days, on a different thread (the prompt of which is "are there any evil Starks?"), I argued that Theon "The Hungry Wolf" Stark is guilty of Crimes Against Humanity. This is because, after repelling an invasion of ONE Andal Adventurer Host, Theon sailed to Andalos specifically to murder non-combatant Andal Civilians and bring their heads back to The North. Later, he invaded The Sisters and during the occupation allowed his solders to commit mass rape, cannibalism, wholesale murder, and more headhunting. 

My argument was that because "Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population" is evil, Theon Stark is evil for committing them. 

The three or four posters defending him argued that because Andal Combatants targeted him first he was within right to kill Andal Non-Combatants (collective punishment, transitive guilt, and punishing civilians for the actions of soldiers are ALL Nazi tactics), that it was necessary to make Andals afraid to invade The North (instilling fear is not a justified military motive, and in this case it didn't work as Vale-Andals started a centuries-long war against The North soon afterwards), that in his time such things were acceptable (a callous and hard-hearted sentiment), and that he was defending his homeland (something he could have done WITHOUT warcrimes).

I challenged these four to put themselves in the shoes of the civilians Theon Stark killed, and NONE of them did so or even acknowledged them. 

So yeah; crimes against humanity were just as objectively evil in the past as they are now. Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Boudicca, and all their ilk deserve to be hanged just as much as the Nazi High-Command did. 

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

Sadly, there's enough people who are still stuck in that medieval mindset that a Presidential candidate in the USA has been able to get political support by promising to break the rules of war and bring back torture and collective punishment, even as the military leaders said they would refuse those orders if given.

[Arrow of the Morning]

For me the most gruesome action was the Blood and Cheese episode. Killing a child in front of his mother, after making her choose which one would die, just to kill the the boy she choose to save is a really nasty thing.

[Jon Fossoway]

- Drowning an entire family in the mines, including children and people who had nothing to do with the conflict but happened to be there.

- Gregor Clegane's raping, pillaging, burning towns and putting prisoners to the sword in the riverlands. And feeding people to other people.

- The savagery in Saltpans.

- Second battle of Tumbleton, when I read it, the word 'hellish' came to mind.

 

[TimJames]

While I wouldn't call it the most terrible, I think a (dis)honorable mention should be given to Ageon II feeding his own sister to a dragon. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 4/3/2016 at 7:42 AM, Cayrouse said:

I'd propose The rule of house Targaryen.

 

snip

 

On 4/3/2016 at 7:38 AM, Rob Storm said:

snip

I have to ask why the death of Lucerys isn't in your list?

[Maester of Valyria]

18 hours ago, Byrnard Sandors said:

Sadly, there's enough people who are still stuck in that medieval mindset that a Presidential candidate in the USA has been able to get political support by promising to break the rules of war and bring back torture and collective punishment, even as the military leaders said they would refuse those orders if given.

Speaking as someone observing this Presidential debate debacle from the other side of the Atlantic, the fact that Trump is doing so well is a constantly bewildering fact to all of us. It seems us Europeans care more about the US electing a decent President (at this point I'd even take Cruz as the Republican nominee) than the US does.

 

Seriously, I would love it if Martin introduces a character called Drumpf, who's incredibly egotistical and depraved but thoroughly useless at everything, and then have him cast down and humiliated before finding himself in a room with Qyburn and Ramsay.

[Darth Sidious]

On 3/4/2016 at 0:38 AM, Rob Storm said:

In your opinion, what is the most terrible atrocity committed by a person or peoples in Westeros that we know of since Aegon's conquest?  Didn't want to go back in history too far to where details and truth are hard to come by.

Just off the top of my head: Red Wedding, Castamere, Maegor the Cruel's various actions, Cheese(?) making the Queen choose which son dies, Brandon/Rickard's deaths, Frey Pies, Ramsey/Lady Hornwood, Sack of King's Landing, Stannis killing Renly ect.

 

• Robert's Rebellion and the murder of Princess Elia and her children.
• Rickard Stark and his Southron Ambitions that led to the rebellion and the fall of the Targaryens.
• Caitlyn Stark's arrest of Tyrion Lannister and the resulting War of the Five Kings.
• Aegon IV legitimizing his bastards.
• Jon Snow betraying the night watch and undermining its defense to help fake Arya.

[Jen'ari]

I think people are being very judgmental of Maegor, personally I think he did a lot of good, his methods of dealing with the Faith Militant were inspired.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

11 minutes ago, Lord High Papal said:

• Robert's Rebellion and the murder of Princess Elia and her children.
• Rickard Stark and his Southron Ambitions that led to the rebellion and the fall of the Targaryens.
• Caitlyn Stark's arrest of Tyrion Lannister and the resulting War of the Five Kings.
• Aegon IV legitimizing his bastards.
• Jon Snow betraying the night watch and undermining its defense to help fake Arya.

Robert's Rebellion happened because Rhaegar and Aerys betrayed the other Lords. The Rebellion and the Fall of the Targs started because Rhaegar eloped with Lyanna. Cat's arrest was a foolish action which endangered her innocent nephew but it didn't started the WotFK, the War start because Cersei prefered to f**k her brother and not her husband. And how in a world with kinslaying, incest, mass murdering and so on Jon's action, which only had hurt himself, is one for the most terrible actions?

[Darth Sidious]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Robert's Rebellion happened because Rhaegar and Aerys betrayed the other Lords. The Rebellion and the Fall of the Targs started because Rhaegar eloped with Lyanna. Cat's arrest was a foolish action but it didn't started the WotFK, the War started because Cersei prefered to f**k her brother and not her husband. And how in a world with kinslaying, incest, mass murdering and so on Jon's action, which only hurted himself, is one for the most terrible actions?

Because what Jon did to help his sister caused too much damage at the wall.  He made enemies of the Boltons, betrayed his brothers, and broke their rules when he sent Mance Rayder to take Ramsay's bride away. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, Lord High Papal said:

Because what Jon did to help his sister caused too much damage at the wall.  He made enemies of the Boltons, betrayed his brothers, and broke their rules when he sent Mance Rayder to take Ramsay's bride away. 

Actually he caused damage to himself not to the Wall, the Boltons were already his enemies since he was a Stark and he didn't sent anyone, it was Mance's and Mel's plan to save the woman who was forced to marry under the fake identity of Arya Stark.

[Darth Sidious]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Actually he caused damage to himself not to the Wall, the Boltons were already his enemies since he was a Stark and he didn't sent anyone, it was Mance's and Mel's plan to save the woman who was forced to marry under the fake identity of Arya Stark.

Oh gosh, you are making apologies for Jon.  He should have executed Mance, not send him to Winterfell.  Yes, Jon sent Mance to Winterfell.  Mel made the offer, and Jon took it. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Just now, Lord High Papal said:

Oh gosh, you are making apologies for Jon.  He should have executed Mance, not send him to Winterfell.  Yes, Jon sent Mance to Winterfell.  Mel made the offer, and Jon took it. 

Who wouldn't had take the offer to save an innocent person, family or not, from a terrible future? Any decent human being would had tried to save the innocent one.

[Darth Sidious]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Who wouldn't had take the offer to save an innocent person, family or not, from a terrible future? Any decent human being would had tried to save the innocent one.

I don't know.  That's hard to answer since we are rarely presented with such choices in modern times.  And yet, we are presented with few opportunities to attain hero status.  I think those who attain hero status can make the choice to serve the greater good rather than what's personally important to himself/herself.  This makes Jon an every-man, average-joe, any-joe,someone who is not of hero material, made to live the life of a simple man.  You know, the white picket fence, housewife, and children life.  The life of an average family man.  

[Jon's Queen Consort]

1 minute ago, Lord High Papal said:

I don't know.  That's hard to answer since we are rarely presented with such choices in modern times.  And yet, we are presented with few opportunities to attain hero status.  I think those who attain hero status can make the choice to serve the greater good rather than what's personally important to himself/herself.  This makes Jon an every-man, average-joe, any-joe,someone who is not of hero material, made to live the life of a simple man.  You know, the white picket fence, housewife, and children life.  The life of an average family man.  

Only his whole storyline was about him to serve the greater good rather than himself. The only time he chose to help someone, not himself, just someone who he loves he gets stabbed. I don't see how a one time thing is more importand than his whole storyline.

[John Doe]

Moral universalism is a pretty flawed concept. 

[Darth Sidious]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Only his whole storyline was about him to serve the greater good rather than himself. The only time he chose to help someone, not himself, just someone who he loves he gets stabbed. I don't see how a one time thing is more importand than his whole storyline.

It depends on the one-time act.  When he deserted the watch earlier to help Robb.  That was a one-time decision that meant the Night Watch would lose the services of one man who deserted his post.  A Lord Commander who did what Jon did in the matters involving Arya is on another scale altogether.  Even more so when he knew perfectly well the danger of the threat they were facing from the army of ice.