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Dwarfism: A Targaryen Trait?


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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tywin's deep and sincere love for Joanna could easily be the reason why he didn't kill Tyrion as an infant even if he did know or strongly suspect that the child wasn't his seed but Aerys'. In fact, there could have been some sort of 'Promise me, Tywin' scenario at Joanna's deathbed in which the dying Joanna had Tywin swear that he would never harm her innocent and raise him as his own son just Ned gave the dying Lyanna (presumably) a similar promise.

Even if we suspend disbelief, and accept that this sadistic psychopath was capable of love, I doubt that this so-called love would have been 'deep and sincere,' more like superficial and contingent.  Tywin doesn't strike me as a romantic sucker for anyone, although this doesn't rule out a fierce possessive instinct towards Joanna, as a kind of extension of his overweening ego.  So, Joanna made Tywin smile and laugh..?  The memory of the singer he had cooked into a bowl of brown makes Tyrion smile and laugh...  Entertainment does not guarantee affection nor loyalty.   

Tywin would have enjoyed and tolerated Joanna, as long as it suited him.  However, it beggars belief that this tolerance in the name of 'love' would have extended to knowingly raising his arch-nemesis's son!  Eclipsing even his relationship with Joanna, his relationship with Aerys was the central relationship of Tywin's existence-- hence all other people paled into insignificance, and became 'fair game' as pieces to be played in the grand trans-generational dramatic showdown between Tywin and Aerys.  Tywin had been shamed by Aerys, and the shame of raising Aerys's son, as a constant reminder of how he'd been cuckolded, would not have been a bearable scenario.  In the end, the way I read his character, 'shame' trumps 'legacy' for Tywin. 

Regarding any 'promise' you suggest he may have made, I think Tywin sees 'giving his word' as more 'flexible,' shall we say, than even Ned!  I don't see Tywin having any qualms at having to break his word, if he needed to rid himself of his shame. And we've been informed countless times over that Tywin does not brook disloyalty without a fierce, exaggerated retaliation.  What greater disloyalty than Joanna having betrayed him with Aerys?  Joanna may have 'ruled' Tywin while she was alive, but I rather think her death may have released him from that authority, freeing him up to eliminate Tyrion. 

Basically, you're (goaded perhaps by GRRM's sloppy characterization, or misdirection in the 'world book') trying to argue that Tywin has a strong governing conscience.  And I just don't buy that this is a capacity typical of a sadistic psychopath.

1 hour ago, BlueNightzx said:

Tyrion is a grotesque reflection of Tywin, and he knows that (in the end, we get to see that tywin enjoyed whores too, and his rage to his son is perhaps an rage against his true nature)
tyrion has the same intellectual prowess, the same strategic mind and calm, he is the "de facto" tywins heir, and thats the point of their arc together

tyrion in the end being another targ because he is cool and the audience love those fire breathing incest lunatics would kill the character to me, tyrion IS the quintessential lannister.like lann the clever, no swords, just his wits..

Detractors argue that Tyrion's intelligence and cunning is all attributable to observing and learning from Tywin at close-range.  Moreover, because he felt rejected, this spurred him on to become even more like Tywin! 

31 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

LIke Lann the Clever. His mind is a sword, his books are his whetstone 

Wouldn't it be great if he could figure out how to ride a dragon just using his wits, without having to have the blood of the 'master-race'..!

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1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

 

Wouldn't it be great if he could figure out how to ride a dragon just using his wits, without having to have the blood of the 'master-race'..!

The Princess and the Queen laid the groundwork for non-valyrians being able to ride dragons

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1 minute ago, Dorian Martell said:

The Princess and the Queen laid the groundwork for non-valyrians being able to ride dragons

Unfortunately, I haven't read it, as I'm less of an aficionado than some of you guys!  Could you explicate how that works?

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2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Unfortunately, I haven't read it, as I'm less of an aficionado than some of you guys!  Could you explicate how that works?

in the story, there is a succession crisis, where the king named an heir from his first wife and the family and friends of the second wife conspire to name her son the heir. Civil war ensues and one side, with a lack of dragon riders looks to bastards of the royal family (called dragonseeds) to fide the dragons. Several Targs never are able to bond with dragons, and several "dragonseeds" are very un-targ like, to the point where a number of readers doubt that "blood of the dragon" is required to ride them. Then when you factor the dragon binding horn, it seems that in the end, anyone with the hutzpah to try may very well be successful at taming and riding a dragon

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5 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

in the story, there is a succession crisis, where the king named an heir from his first wife and the family and friends of the second wife conspire to name her son the heir. Civil war ensues and one side, with a lack of dragon riders looks to bastards of the royal family (called dragonseeds) to fide the dragons. Several Targs never are able to bond with dragons, and several "dragonseeds" are very un-targ like, to the point where a number of readers doubt that "blood of the dragon" is required to ride them. Then when you factor the dragon binding horn, it seems that in the end, anyone with the hutzpah to try may very well be successful at taming and riding a dragon

However, even 'dragonseeds' have a wee drappie of that magical blood, don't they?  I thought that was the point of that 'red or black...a dragon is a dragon...' quote?  So, that doesn't really get around the genetic factor.

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Just now, ravenous reader said:

However, even 'dragonseeds' have a wee drappie of that magical blood, don't they?  I thought that was the point of that 'red or black...a dragon is a dragon quote'..?  So, that doesn't really get around the genetic factor.

The point is, the dragon seeds are not guaranteed to have any dragon blood, they just survived the bonding process. There are targs were not able to bond with dragons. Genes don't mean crap 

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1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

We do see that Aerys was incapable of sex unless it was rape,so there's that...

That isn't the case. Aerys had lots of mistresses in his youth and there is no hint that he ever raped any of these women. The only woman he actually raped as far as we know was Rhaella late in his life when he was completely mad. There is also no reason to believe Aerys raped Rhaella when they conceived Rhaegar, Viserys, or any of children who didn't live.

23 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

stuff

There is a strong hint that Tywin's character was shaped over time. The man wasn't born as the cold prick he was when he died, that much is clear.

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4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Aerys had lots of mistresses in his youth and there is no hint that he ever raped any of these women

In fact, before the full expression of his mental illness, he was supposed to have been possessed of a magnetic charm, resulting in a lot of consensual promiscuity on both sides!

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1 hour ago, ravenous reader said:

Detractors argue that Tyrion's intelligence and cunning is all attributable to observing and learning from Tywin at close-range.  Moreover, because he felt rejected, this spurred him on to become even more like Tywin! 

It is a possibility, i will not deny it.

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6 hours ago, Light a wight tonight said:

IMO, this would be totally out of character for Tywin. I don't know why, but this appeals to some readers.

A more likely scenario if Joanna were to find herself pregnant by Aerys is the same tansy treatment that Lysa got to abort Littlefinger's baby. Even more likely would be moon tea right after the rape. Why in the world would she want to carry the Mad King's rape-child to term?

I don't necessarily agree that Aerys raped Joanna ever, but seriously with this line? Why does anyone carry a "rape-child" to term? Because it is their child and they don't want to have an abortion and they have a right to make choices about their bodies, especially after just having their right to bodily autonomy so blatantly violated.

Sometimes the people on this forum are so callous.

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I acknowledge the possibility for A+J=T.  It is possible.  Although Tyrion's lack of stature would have nothing to do with it.  It's just plain bad luck. 

It is possible, but is it likely?  I don't think it is likely.  I just don't think George would write a story in which every important character is a Targaryen.  There have always been three main families central to the story: Targaryen, Stark, and Lannister.  I think the Big 3 will come each house and no mixing of the blood (I don't buy into R+L=J).  What would be the point of building up the Starks and the Lannisters if the big three all came from Aerys? 

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2 hours ago, Winter Rose Crown said:

I don't necessarily agree that Aerys raped Joanna ever, but seriously with this line? Why does anyone carry a "rape-child" to term? Because it is their child and they don't want to have an abortion and they have a right to make choices about their bodies, especially after just having their right to bodily autonomy so blatantly violated.

Sometimes the people on this forum are so callous.

I don't understand your sentiment. If Joanna had become pregnant by Aeryys through rape, and did not want to give birth to that child, aborting it would have been her choice. Isn't not giving birth to her rapist's child having control of her body? Even many social conservatives in the USA consider rape a valid reason for having an abortion.

Of course she might have been having an affair with Aerys as payback for those visits Tywin was making through the tunnel to Chataya's establishment. But Tywin isn't stupid, and would have learned through his agents so he's still have had Tyrion smothered to deal with his anger at Joanna's death and to get revenge on Aerys.

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5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is a strong hint that Tywin's character was shaped over time. The man wasn't born as the cold prick he was when he died, that much is clear.

I'm not sure how clear it is, in actuality, other than a newborn's character isn't known. He was about 19 or 20 when he wiped out the Reynes and Tarbecks, so he was a ruthless bastard as a young man, if not a cold prick.

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28 minutes ago, Light a wight tonight said:

I'm not sure how clear it is, in actuality, other than a newborn's character isn't known. He was about 19 or 20 when he wiped out the Reynes and Tarbecks, so he was a ruthless bastard as a young man, if not a cold prick.

Yeah, well, but that was necessarily for the survival and the restoration of his family, no? Tytos hadn't only made the Lannisters of Casterly Rock a laughingstock, he had also made the entire West a place full of lawlessness, rebellion, and private wars. Tywin had to be harsher than harsh to hit home the fact that he wasn't his father's son in the sense that he was as soft as Tytos was.

By the that time everyone on Westeros - and especially in the West - was accustomed to laugh about the Lord of Casterly Rock. To change that back to normal - i.e. made the Lannisters a power which was respected and feared - Tywin had to be overly cruel. But that doesn't necessarily mean he enjoyed murdering children or liked the idea of drowning everyone in Castamere. But then - the Reynes still failed to realize what was going on at that point. Tywin couldn't possibly besiege the castle in a conventional manner. Had they yielded things may have gone quite different. There would have been executions, but I guess the women and children would have survived as hostages at Casterly Rock.

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1 hour ago, Light a wight tonight said:

I don't understand your sentiment. If Joanna had become pregnant by Aeryys through rape, and did not want to give birth to that child, aborting it would have been her choice. Isn't not giving birth to her rapist's child having control of her body? Even many social conservatives in the USA consider rape a valid reason for having an abortion.

Of course she might have been having an affair with Aerys as payback for those visits Tywin was making through the tunnel to Chataya's establishment. But Tywin isn't stupid, and would have learned through his agents so he's still have had Tyrion smothered to deal with his anger at Joanna's death and to get revenge on Aerys.

Not  everyone who  is raped wants to have an abortion. Sure, rape is a reason for abortion (not that you need a reason) but part of having control of your body is also being  able to keep a baby you want. Just because you didn't want to be raped doesn't mean you don't want to keep the  baby. The baby isn't *just* Aerys's "rape-baby", it is also Joanna's baby. Maybe she wanted to keep her baby. Can you really not think of a single reason a woman would make that choice? Or why calling the child a "rape-baby" is offensive and rude? 

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I always wondered why Tywin named him Tyrion, this is a name from history of actual Lannister Kings(so thought of with promise for the child's future Id say). And it doesn't strike me as a Joanna chosen name.It sounds like a Tywin chosen name. Unless he had it already chosen before birth and even when he saw Tyrion was a Dwarf the name stood anyway as it was pre chosen. 

So if Tywin had chosen the Name Tyrion before birth in the event he should have a son, it could mean he was fully with the idea it was his and he was intending on naming his boy after Lannister Kings of old. 

Or if they were waiting for the child to be born before naming, then upon birth Tywin sees a Dwarf baby, and his wife dies, but the name Tyrion still stands. A name of Lannister Kings. Not Targ Kings. What are we to make of this? Could this mean Joanna had mentioned she liked the name before the birth/her death?

Its boggled my mind for a while. But in any event, the fact Tyrion is named with a presumably highly regarded name of Lannister Kings of old then it may point in the direction that Tywin indeed at least thought Tyrion was a pure Lannister. 

 

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44 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I always wondered why Tywin named him Tyrion, this is a name from history of actual Lannister Kings(so thought of with promise for the child's future Id say). And it doesn't strike me as a Joanna chosen name.It sounds like a Tywin chosen name. Unless he had it already chosen before birth and even when he saw Tyrion was a Dwarf the name stood anyway as it was pre chosen. 

So if Tywin had chosen the Name Tyrion before birth in the event he should have a son, it could mean he was fully with the idea it was his and he was intending on naming his boy after Lannister Kings of old. 

Or if they were waiting for the child to be born before naming, then upon birth Tywin sees a Dwarf baby, and his wife dies, but the name Tyrion still stands. A name of Lannister Kings. Not Targ Kings. What are we to make of this? Could this mean Joanna had mentioned she liked the name before the birth/her death?

Its boggled my mind for a while. But in any event, the fact Tyrion is named with a presumably highly regarded name of Lannister Kings of old then it may point in the direction that Tywin indeed at least thought Tyrion was a pure Lannister. 

 

Wel not really promise he is named after Tyrion the tormentor who could only have seks with women that he had drawn blood from, basicaly he was named after a sadist.

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7 minutes ago, direpupy said:

Wel not really promise he is named after Tyrion the tormentor who could only have seks with women that he had drawn blood from, basicaly he was named after a sadist.

He was also a strong King who showed prowess with his Battle Axe. Actually sounds like our own Tyrion lol. Point being anyways it's a nod to Lannister history and that if Tywin is naming his son after Lannister Kings it may be cos he seen Tyrion as a pure Lannister. 

There was two Kings(for reference here's the quotes).

AWOIAF.

Lann the Clever never called himself a king, as best we know, though some tales told centuries later have conferred that styling on him posthumously. The first true Lannister king we know of is Loreon Lannister, also known as Loreon the Lion (a number of Lannisters through the centuries have been dubbed "the Lion" or "the Golden," for understandable reasons), who made the Reynes of Castamere his vassals by wedding a daughter of that house, and defeated the Hooded King, Morgon Banefort, and his thralls in a war that lasted twenty years. Loreon might have been the first Lannister to style himself King of the Rock, but it was a title his sons and grandsons and their successors continued to bear for thousands of years. However, the boundaries of their kingdom did not reach their full scope until the arrival of the Andal invaders. The Andals came late to the westerlands, long after they had taken the Vale and toppled the kingdoms of the First Men in the riverlands. The first Andal warlord to march an army through the hills met a bloody end at the hands of King Tybolt Lannister (called, unsurprisingly, the Thunderbolt). The second and third attacks were dealt with likewise, but as more and more Andals began moving west in bands large and small, KingTyrion III and his son Gerold II saw their doom ahead. 
Rather than attempting to throw back the invaders, these sage kings arranged marriages for the more powerful of the Andal war chiefs with the daughters of the great houses of the west. Cautious men, and well aware of what had happened in the Vale, they took care to demand a price for this largesse; the sons and daughters of the Andal lords so ennobled were taken as wards and fosterlings, to serve as squires and pages and cupbearers in Casterly Rock...and as hostages, should their fathers prove treacherous.
 
AWOIAF.
Some of the Lannister kings were famed for their wisdom, some for their valor, all for their open-handedness...save perhaps for King Norwin Lannister, better known as Norwin the Niggardly. Yet Casterly Rock also housed many a weak, cruel, and feeble king. Loreon IV was better known as Loreon the Lackwit, and his grandson Loreon V was dubbed Queen Lorea, for he was fond of dressing in his wife's clothing and wandering the docks of Lannisport in the guise of a common prostitute. (After their reigns, the name Loreon became notably less common amongst Lannister princes.) A later monarch, Tyrion II, was known as the Tormentor. Though a strong king, famed for prowess with his battle-axe, his true delight was torture, and it was whispered of him that he desired no woman unless he first made her bleed.
 
 
 
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15 minutes ago, Macgregor of the North said:

He was also a strong King who showed prowess with his Battle Axe. Actually sounds like our own Tyrion lol. Point being anyways it's a nod to Lannister history and that if Tywin is naming his son after Lannister Kings it may be cos he seen Tyrion as a pure Lannister. 

Maybe, maybe not. I think it could have been meant to signify that Tywin saw him as a true Lannister but it could also be that he choose a name that did not apear whery often any more after the tormenter to show distance, he had to name him something after all.

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1 hour ago, direpupy said:

Maybe, maybe not. I think it could have been meant to signify that Tywin saw him as a true Lannister but it could also be that he choose a name that did not apear whery often any more after the tormenter to show distance, he had to name him something after all.

In any event it's a Lannister name of Kings. 

I can't see why he would name Tyrion after two Lannister Kings of old(and good rulers I may add, even though one of thems sexual preferences are a tad freaky)  if he had any inkling he wasn't a pure Lannister. 

If he suspected him an issue through rape/consensual sex by Aerys and not his own trueborn son he could have named him after some famous failure of the past, or some lack wit fool. He never though, he picks a name of two Kings who ruled well by all accounts. 

Its like Tywin knew Tyrion was his, I think he secretly admired and was proud of his sons cunning, and did indeed have high hopes for him before his birth, but the fact Tyrion came out a Dwarf, "killed" his beloved Joanna and grew up a disappointment with his silly ways and whoring, Tywin has nothing but hate for him. Which is a shame. 

I think Genna had the right of it when she tells Jaime Tyrion is more Tywins son than him. And Tywin was furious probably because he loathes his Imp son and what he has become when he had the cunning, and the name to become an awesome Lannister.(which he is in our eyes) but in Tywins eyes he is just a disappointment and a shame on him. More so because he knows he is his. 

Of course though,I  am no fact master and Tyrion may well be Aerys son :P

 

 

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