Wow, I Never Noticed That, v. 14

[Masha]

On 6/18/2016 at 10:49 AM, Ser Middlefinger said:

I have something I never noticed before that I just read last night in a Clash of Kings. It's right after Arya hears at Harrenhall that her younger brothers are "dead". She sees Elmar Frey crying about the princess he was supposed to marry. He says to Arya "we've been dishonored, Aenys says. There was a bird from the Twins. I'll need to find someone else or be a septon." 

It wasn't until my third reread I realized the princess he is talking about is Arya since one of the Freys was to be betrothed to her. This is pretty ironic since he's always rude to her and she doesn't like him. Pretty small thing but kinda blew my mind that I never caught it.

Wow, Cat did give away a house for that bridge! First, Robb to marry one of Frey's daughters and Arya too! 

[Lost Melnibonean]

If you ever find yourself in a fight with a Clegane, better fasten your gorget...

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“No one could withstand him,” the Hound rasped. “That’s truth enough. No one could ever withstand Gregor. That boy today, his second joust, oh, that was a pretty bit of business. You saw that, did you? Fool boy, he had no business riding in this company. No money, no squire, no one to help him with that armor. That gorget wasn’t fastened proper. You think Gregor didn’t notice that? You think Ser Gregor’s lance rode up by chance, do you? Pretty little talking girl, you believe that, you’re empty-headed as a bird for true. Gregor’s lance goes where Gregor wants it to go. Look at me. Look at me!”

Sansa II, Game 29

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The axehead caught him square in the back of the head, crashing through his helm and the skull beneath and sending him flying face first from his saddle. Behind him was the Hound, still mounted on Stranger. How did you get an axe? she almost asked, before she saw. One of the other Freys was trapped beneath his dying horse, drowning in a foot of water. The third man was sprawled on his back, unmoving. He hadn’t worn a gorget, and a foot of broken sword jutted from beneath his chin.

Arya XI, Storm 52

[Lost Melnibonean]

Duh, I never noticed that Tywin almost surely did not offer to wed Joy Hill to Raynald Westerling since had already promised Joy to one of Walder Frey's bastards. I bet Tywin intended to dump Cersei on House Westerling!

[Lost Melnibonean]

Could Salladhor Saan have been in league with Illyrio and Varys from the beginning? 

[Lost Melnibonean]

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Arianne raised a tear-streaked face. "How could he know?" she asked the captain. "I was so careful. How could he know?"

"Someone told." Hotah shrugged. "Someone always tells."

 

The Queenmaker, Feast 21

No, not always...

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... A smuggler had best know men as well as tides, or he would not live to smuggle long. The queen's men might remain fervent followers of the Lord of Light, but the lesser folk of Dragonstone were drifting back to the gods they'd known all their lives. They said Stannis was ensorceled, that Melisandre had turned him away from the Seven to bow before some demon out of shadow, and . . . worst sin of all . . . that she and her god had failed him. And there were knights and lordlings who felt the same. Davos had sought them out, choosing them with the same care with which he'd once picked his crews. Ser Gerald Gower fought stoutly on the Blackwater, but afterward had been heard to say that R'hllor must be a feeble god to let his followers be chased off by a dwarf and a dead man. Ser Andrew Estermont was the king's cousin, and had served as his squire years ago. The Bastard of Nightsong had commanded the rearguard that allowed Stannis to reach the safety of Salladhor Saan's galleys, but he worshiped the Warrior with a faith as fierce as he was. King's men, not queen's men. But it would not do to boast of them.

"A certain Lysene pirate once told me that a good smuggler stays out of sight," Davos replied carefully. "Black sails, muffled oars, and a crew that knows how to hold their tongues."

The Lyseni laughed. "A crew with no tongues is even better. Big strong mutes who cannot read or write." ...

...

... He slapped Davos on the back. "Take care. You with your mute friends. You are grown so very great now, yet the higher a man climbs the farther he has to fall."

 

Davos V, Storm 54

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... Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing. "Give me this boy," she whispered, "and I will give you your kingdom."

"He can't," said Davos. "Edric Storm is gone."

"Gone?" Stannis turned. "What do you mean, gone?"

"He is aboard a Lyseni galley, safely out to sea." Davos watched Melisandre's pale, heart-shaped face. He saw the flicker of dismay there, the sudden uncertainty. She did not see it!

 

Davos VI, Storm 63

[Lost Melnibonean]

Oops, wrong thread...

[Lord Wraith]

On 7/19/2016 at 5:47 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Could Salladhor Saan have been in league with Illyrio and Varys from the beginning? 

Certainly plausible. Another Saan was a member of the Band of Nine and one of his ships is a clear reference to another member Old Mother.

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Nine-and-twenty ships had set sail from the Wall. If half of them were still afloat, Davos would be shocked. Black skies, bitter winds, and lashing rains had hounded them all the way down the coast. The galleys Oledo and Old Mother's Son had been driven onto the rocks of Skagos, the isle of unicorns and cannibals where even the Blind Bastard had feared to land; the great cog Saathos Saan had foundered off the Grey Cliffs. 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

23 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Certainly plausible. Another Saan was a member of the Band of Nine and one of his ships is a clear reference to another member Old Mother.

 

The name of that boat just about seals it for me. Thanks. I started thinking about this when I reread the intelligence that Salladhor gives to Stannis about the Red Wedding. I am wondering if Varys is providing Salladhor such information. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

As Jon prepares to fight Styr and Ygritte et al., he thinks, "We are caught between the hammer and the anvil." Keep in mind that this was published in Storm before we learned in The Sworn Sword that Baelor Breakspear and Maekar formed their own hammer and anvil. 

ETA

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“No,” Donal Noye roared at three of the Mole’s Town men, down below. “The pitch goes to the hoist, the oil up the steps, crossbow bolts to the fourth, fifth, and sixth landings, spears to first and second. Stack the lard under the stair, yes, there, behind the planks. The casks of meat are for the barricade. Now, you poxy plow pushers, NOW!”

He has a lord’s voice, Jon thought. His father had always said that in battle a captain’s lungs were as important as his sword arm. “It does not matter how brave or brilliant a man is, if his commands cannot be heard,” Lord Eddard told his sons, so Robb and he used to climb the towers of Winterfell to shout at each other across the yard. Donal Noye could have drowned out both of them. The moles all went in terror of him, and rightfully so, since he was always threatening to rip their heads off.

 

The second paragraph makes the reader think that the first paragraph was just a bunch of random orders to set up the discussion of a lord's voice. But consider the placement of the materials. The lard, a flammable substance, was to be put under the stair. Why the heck would you want lard under the stair unless you intended to burn the stair? And the pitch and the oil was going up the stair. The George was telling us what was going to happen.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Here's another hint at what's coming...

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As morning turned to afternoon, the smoke of Mole’s Town blew away and the southern sky was clear again. No clouds, thought Jon. That was good. Rain or snow could doom them all.

[Isobel Harper]

Stormlanders flip-flip allegiance as they do because they are unwilling to back ANY Lannister.  

During Daeron II's reign, the Dornish were resented for their influence on the King.  This unequal representation in court lead to some houses backing another king (i.e. The Blackfyre Rebellion).  

Similarly, King Robert's court is ridden with bias for his wife's house and native kingdom.  Despite Robert being a Stormlander himself, the Stormlands are not favorably represented at court.  For example, Lancel and Tyrek Lannister (cousins to the Queen) receive the honor of squiring for the King, not the sons of any Stormlander house. 

The resentment regarding poor representation at court also heavily influenced the Stormlands' decision to back Renly over Stannis.  Renly was Lord of Storms End, and the Stormlands would be much more likely to profit politically from Renly than Stannis.  

[yomi]

On 19.7.2016 at 11:00 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Duh, I never noticed that Tywin almost surely did not offer to wed Joy Hill to Raynald Westerling since had already promised Joy to one of Walder Frey's bastards. I bet Tywin intended to dump Cersei on House Westerling!

I'm not so sure abot that... the Westerling heir seems a better option than a Frey bastard.

[Lord Vance II]

So I've read the books several times...and I just realized last night that Robb Stark is his full name...and that it is not short for Robert. I always assumed everyone called him Robb for short. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

7 hours ago, yomi said:

I'm not so sure abot that... the Westerling heir seems a better option than a Frey bastard.

Nope...

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"I suppose you would have spared the boy and told Lord Frey you had no need of his allegiance? That would have driven the old fool right back into Stark's arms and won you another year of war. Explain to me why it is more noble to kill ten thousand men in battle than a dozen at dinner." When Tyrion had no reply to that, his father continued. "The price was cheap by any measure. The crown shall grant Riverrun to Ser Emmon Frey once the Blackfish yields. Lancel and Daven must marry Frey girls, Joy is to wed one of Lord Walder's natural sons when she's old enough, and Roose Bolton becomes Warden of the North and takes home Arya Stark."

Tyrion VI, Storm 53

[Lost Melnibonean]

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He found Ygritte sprawled across a patch of old snow beneath the Lord Commander’s Tower, with an arrow between her breasts.

ETA

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"'Nissa Nissa,' he said to her, for that was her name, 'bare your breast, and know that I love you best of all that is in this world.' She did this thing, why I cannot say, andAzor Ahai thrust the smoking sword through her living heart."

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

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"There are ghosts here," Bran said. Hodor had heard all the stories before, but Jojen might not have. "Old ghosts, from before the Old King, even before Aegon the Dragon, seventy-nine deserters who went south to be outlaws. One was Lord Ryswell's youngest son, so when they reached the barrowlands they sought shelter at his castle, but Lord Ryswell took them captive and returned them to the Nightfort. The Lord Commander had holes hewn in the top of the Wall and he put the deserters in them and sealed them up alive in the ice. They have spears and horns and they all face north. The seventy-nine sentinels, they're called. They left their posts in life, so in death their watch goes on forever. Years later, when Lord Ryswell was old and dying, he had himself carried to the Nightfort so he could take the black and stand beside his son. He'd sent him back to the Wall for honor's sake, but he loved him still, so he came to share his watch."

Bran IV, Storm 56

The tale of seventy-nine (shouldn't that be nine and seventy?) sentinels suggests that even one's family would not harbor a deserter from the Night's Watch. It also suggests that if you desert in life, your watch will not end in death. Is the author suggesting anything else? 

[Ser Ronan Storm]

Not sure if this has been mentioned in this thread or the numerous one preceding it, but in Dany's first chapter in A Game Of Thrones, Viserys is an eager beaver and foolishly boasts that he'd only need 10,000 Dothraki screamers to take the Seven Kingdoms at that time. I think someone scoffs at him and sets him straight (or maybe that was me, the reader). Now, in A Dance With Dragons, another Targaryen has invaded Westeros with only 10,000 men (the Golden Company) and because of the chaos in the wake of the War of Five Kings, he seems to be having a smashing success in the Stormlands, which are only a hop, skip and jump away from the capital. Timing is everything.

[Ser Quork]

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Bran IV, Storm 56

The tale of seventy-nine (shouldn't that be nine and seventy?) sentinels suggests that even one's family would not harbor a deserter from the Night's Watch. It also suggests that if you desert in life, your watch will not end in death. Is the author suggesting anything else? 

That's what I've taken it to mean, and why I've assumed Robb's Will is necessary to accomplish the job of getting Jon out of his vows in a way the North would accept.  The assassination attempt itself I think is for Jon personally to accept his vows are at an end.

Additionally, had the assassination attempt (assuming he dies) on Jon been more forceful (i.e., without the perpetrators being so afraid of their own actions, being in tears, etc.), I wouldn't have been surprised had Jon's body been walled in ice to continue his watch because he was threatening to desert (thereby preserving his body).  However, the odd behaviour of his assassins seems to indicate they will not be taking any kind of forceful control of the Watch (combined with a giant & Wildings on the rampage) to make such a decision.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Ser Quork said:

That's what I've taken it to mean, and why I've assumed Robb's Will is necessary to accomplish the job of getting Jon out of his vows in a way the North would accept.  The assassination attempt itself I think is for Jon personally to accept his vows are at an end.

Additionally, had the assassination attempt (assuming he dies) on Jon been more forceful (i.e., without the perpetrators being so afraid of their own actions, being in tears, etc.), I wouldn't have been surprised had Jon's body been walled in ice to continue his watch because he was threatening to desert (thereby preserving his body).  However, the odd behaviour of his assassins seems to indicate they will not be taking any kind of forceful control of the Watch (combined with a giant & Wildings on the rampage) to make such a decision.

Hmm... One could argue that Jon is like a sentinal. He betrayed his vows (arguably), and now he's been killed for it. If he gets put in an ice cell, we might assume that his watch will not end in death. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

After The George gives us the tale of the seventy-nine sentinals, he gives us the tale of the Night's King...

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The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan’s stories, the tale of Night’s King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

Bran IV, Storm 56

From this tale we see that a watchman set himself up as a king, with his seat at the Nightfort, after he had become ensorceled by a female Other. He sacrificed to the Others, presumably like Craster, and he was eventually brought down by the Lord of Stark and the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Old Nan suggests that there might have been a kinslaying element involved, but as the passage below suggests, this may have just been a flourish for young Bran's entertainment. 

Although the Night's King is referred to in passing a few more times, we don't learn anything else in the novels. Unlike the seventy-nine sentinals, though, we get a little clarification in The World of Ice and Fire...

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The oldest of these tales concern the legendary Night’s King, the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, who was alleged to have bedded a sorceress pale as a corpse and declared himself a king. For thirteen years the Night’s King and his “corpse queen” ruled together, before King of Winter, Brandon the Breaker, (in alliance, it is said, with the King-Beyond-the-Wall, Joramun) brought them down. Thereafter, he obliterated the Night’s King’s very name from memory.

In the Citadel, the archmaesters largely dismiss these tales—though some allow that there may have been a Lord Commander who attempted to carve out a kingdom for himself in the earliest days of the Watch. Some suggest that perhaps the corpse queen was a woman of the Barrowlands, a daughter of the Barrow King who was then a power in his own right, and oft associated with graves. The Night’s King has been said to have been variously a Bolton, a Woodfoot, an Umber, a Flint, a Norrey, or even a Stark, depending on where the tale is told. Like all tales, it takes on the attributes that make it most appealing to those who tell it.

The World of Ice and Fire

The ASOIAF character that bears the strongest association to the Night’s King is King Stannis, who will claim the Nightfort as his royal seat soon after Bran recalls Old Nan's tale. He appears have been ensorceled by a pale woman. And although we don't have a connection with the Others, he has sacrificed and made those shadowbabies, and he just might be fixing to sacrifice his daughter. I wonder who will bring him down?