Wow, I Never Noticed That, v. 14

[Lost Melnibonean]

Compare this. . .

“Do you believe in ghosts, Maester?” he asked Qyburn. The man’s face grew strange. “Once, at the Citadel, I came into an empty room and saw an empty chair. Yet I knew a woman had been there, only a moment before. The cushion was dented where she’d sat, the cloth was still warm, and her scent lingered in the air. If we leave our smells be hind us when we leave a room, surely something of our souls must remain when we leave this life?”

To this. . . 

Her red eyes blazed like twin fires, and seemed to stare deep into his soul. “You do not believe me. You doubt the truth of R’hllor even now … yet have served him all the same, and will serve him again. I shall leave you here to think on all that I have told you. And because R’hllor is the source of all good, I shall leave the torch as well.” With a smile and swirl of scarlet skirts, she was gone. Only her scent lingered after. That, and the torch.

[Isobel Harper]

16 hours ago, Seams said:

The Walders (including Hodor) at Winterfell may go to GRRM's wordplay with the words "wards" and "swords" that I have been trying to sort out.

Ned has one sword (Ice) and one ward (Theon). His sword is eventually divided into two swords (Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail). You might say that Theon is "divided" into Theon and Reek. (But I think it's possible that Sansa and Arya are another sword-like pair that might be represented by the reforging of Ice, and there may be others. Sansa and Arya are "divided" by the Lannisters, so that's another parallel to Ice. When Sansa is stressing about whether to tell Olenna Redwyne Tyrell about Joffrey's true, nasty personality, she worries that she will be given to Ser Ilyn Payne for revealing this information, exactly what happened to Ice as well as Ned. But I digress.)

Catelyn has two wards (Big Walder and Little Walder). One apparently kills the other. I'm not at all sure where this is going, except that the death of one ward might represent the partial death of Catelyn.

Hodor/Walder strikes me as one of GRRM's fools - a wise individual who appears to be nutty but who understands the "door" between death and life. Just as Walder Frey controls The Crossing, Hodor may be a guardian of some kind of door in the Winterfell crypt. I think it's entirely likely that Hodor/Walder will turn out to be related to the Frey family. It was not a minor detail that Catelyn killed Jinglebell just before her own throat was cut. She took along one fool related to the Frey family on her trip to death; she "left behind" another Frey fool with Bran.

It may also be significant that the castle at The Crossing is called The Twins. Maybe Walders are supposed to come in pairs. If Jinglebell is not Hodor's other half, will we meet his symbolic partner at some point?

Where is GRRM going with this?

By the way, LM, you ask the best questions. Thank you for bringing out the best in my own thinking about the details in these books.

Interesting find.  Remember that Jinglebells is the man's nickname - his real name is Aegon.  This Aegon finds himself in a similar situation to another Aegon (or a supposed Aegon double), a mother seeing her son die.  Aegon dies in WoW, but like Walder Frey had "other sons," Rhaegar had another son.

[The Fattest Leech]

On March 7, 2016 at 1:12 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Did Wylis even know?

And it weren't the Frey's who made him eat human flesh, but Gregor. Wyman would be punishing people who had nothing to with the incident...

 

As far as we know, yes, they seem to be the only ones.

http://weirwood-net.com/physical-data

Just saw this link. How cool. Thank you. 

[Starfell]

Baela Targaryen and her husband Alyn Velaryon both potentially had claims on the throne; Baela through Daemon, and Alyn though Rhaenys via his alleged father Laenor.

A small historical sidenote, perhaps, but with some interesting implications. I wonder whether the marriage was engineered by Corlys in order to produce a potential heir for Aegon III should he die without issue.  Now, I'm going to hang might-have-beens on sepculation to craft a little theory

If Aegon died at some point following Jaehaera's tragic death (bearing in mind nobody knows Viserys II is alive at this point in time), then these two (along with Rhaena) are the two whose official geaneologies place them closest to the throne; if Baela/Rhaena stand to inherit, then there's a potential repeat of the exact issue over female succession which led to the Dance, which Westerosi Lords both before (Rhaenys) and since (Daena) clearly weren't ready to accept. Alyn Velaryon would be able to challenge the sisters to the throne over his official  descent from Rhaenys The Queen Who Never Was, but is bastard born and is likely not actually descended from her at all. The Alyn/Baela marriage solidifies these two potentially civil war causing claims to be Aegon III's heir into a single entity and might have prevented another succession crisis, had Aegon not reproduced or Viserys not reappeared.

Obviously this is specultive, and it assumes the period between Jaehaera's death and Viserys' return was when the two were married, I've not come across any specific enough chronology to contradict it though

[RoamingRonin]

Dany I, ASOS:

Quote

"Just so, Captain," she answered with a smile, pleased to have won the man over. Captain Groleo was an old Pentoshi like his master, Illyrio Mopatis, and he had been nervous as a maiden about carrying three dragons on his ship. Half a hundred buckets of seawater still hung from the gunwales, in case of fires. At first Groleo had wanted the dragons caged and Dany had consented to put his fears at ease, but their misery was so palpable that she soon changed her mind and insisted they be freed. 

Even Captain Groleo was glad of that, now. There had been one small fire, easily extinguished; against that, Balerion suddenly seemed to have far fewer rats than she'd had before, when she sailed under the name Saduleon. And her crew, once as fearful as they were curious, had begun to take a queer fierce pride in "their" dragons. Every man of them, from captain to cook's boy, loved to watch the three fly . . . though none so much as Dany.

This pretty much seems to sum up her experience in Meereen with a few differences. I wonder if the second paragraph is an indication of what's to come? Sure she'll set fires - major ones, not so easily put out - but ultimately there will be people that will appreciate the arrival of dragons? 

[Isobel Harper]

1 hour ago, Starfell said:

Baela Targaryen and her husband Alyn Velaryon both potentially had claims on the throne; Baela through Daemon, and Alyn though Rhaenys via his alleged father Laenor.

A small historical sidenote, perhaps, but with some interesting implications. I wonder whether the marriage was engineered by Corlys in order to produce a potential heir for Aegon III should he die without issue.  Now, I'm going to hang might-have-beens on sepculation to craft a little theory

If Aegon died at some point following Jaehaera's tragic death (bearing in mind nobody knows Viserys II is alive at this point in time), then these two (along with Rhaena) are the two whose official geaneologies place them closest to the throne; if Baela/Rhaena stand to inherit, then there's a potential repeat of the exact issue over female succession which led to the Dance, which Westerosi Lords both before (Rhaenys) and since (Daena) clearly weren't ready to accept. Alyn Velaryon would be able to challenge the sisters to the throne over his official  descent from Rhaenys The Queen Who Never Was, but is bastard born and is likely not actually descended from her at all. The Alyn/Baela marriage solidifies these two potentially civil war causing claims to be Aegon III's heir into a single entity and might have prevented another succession crisis, had Aegon not reproduced or Viserys not reappeared.

Obviously this is specultive, and it assumes the period between Jaehaera's death and Viserys' return was when the two were married, I've not come across any specific enough chronology to contradict it though

I've noticed House Velaryon's potential (albeit small) claim as well.  In this thread, I questioned if this might be an issue at some point in the future of the series.  Note that through an equal inheritance law (such as exist in Dorne) Velaryons could claim a right to the throne at this time (and perhaps still?) via Laena, who was Rhaenys' firstborn child.  However, that House Velaryon descends from both of Rhaenys' children would possibly help the claim.

[Lost Melnibonean]

12 hours ago, RoamingRonin said:

Dany I, ASOS:

This pretty much seems to sum up her experience in Meereen with a few differences. I wonder if the second paragraph is an indication of what's to come? Sure she'll set fires - major ones, not so easily put out - but ultimately there will be people that will appreciate the arrival of dragons? 

Not many in or near Meereen, I think. 

[KingMance]

This has most certainly discussed or posted before, but on my 3rd reread of GoT, Sansa chapter after her father gets beheaded: 

Frog-faced Lord Slynt sat at the end of the council table wearing a black velvet doublet and a shiny cloth-of-gold cape, nodding with approval every time the king pronounced a sentence. Sansa stared hard at his ugly face, remembering how he had thrown down her father for Ser Ilyn to behead, wishing she could hurt him, wishing that some hero would throw him down and cut off his head. 

Her hero ends up being Jon, who she never thinks of as anything but her bastard brother.

[Rob Storm]

Cersei and Arys keep continueing to grow similar to me.  Another example is how their fascination with fire blinds them from the fact they are losing their control on the realm.

Just as Cersei watches the Tower of the Hand burn while Margery plants seeds in Tommen, Arys ignites the biggest threat to his family in 3 centuries by burning Rickard Stark.    Both destroy Stark support, and both will see that come back to haunt them.  

[Lost Melnibonean]

Compare this. . .

Quote

 

"He is!" Sansa insisted. "I don't want someone brave and gentle, I want him. We'll be ever so happy, just like in the songs, you'll see. I'll give him a son with golden hair, and one day he'll be the king of all the realm, the greatest king that ever was, as brave as the wolf and as proud as the lion."

Arya made a face. "Not if Joffrey's his father," she said. "He's a liar and a craven and anyhow he's a stag, not a lion."

Sansa felt tears in her eyes. "He is not! He's not the least bit like that old drunken king," she screamed at her sister, forgetting herself in her grief.

Father looked at her strangely. "Gods," he swore softly, "out of the mouth of babes . . . "

 

Sansa III, Game 44

To this. . .

Quote

 

King Joffrey leaned forward, hands grasping the arms of the throne. Broken sword points fanned out between his fingers. "He said I wasn't the king. Why did he say that?"

"His leg was broken," Sansa replied eagerly. "It hurt ever so much, Maester Pycelle was giving him milk of the poppy, and they say that milk of the poppy fills your head with clouds. Otherwise he would never have said it."

Varys said, "A child's faith . . . such sweet innocence . . . and yet, they say wisdom oft comes from the mouths of babes."

 

Sansa V, Game 57

[dornishdame]

She raised her hand to her cheek, more surprised than hurt. "Why did you do that?"

"It is Arya of House Stark who chews on her lip whenever she is thinking. Are you Arya of House Stark?"

"I am no one." She was angry. "Who are you?" (Cat of the Canals in Feast)

Although she is most associated with it, Arya is not the only Stark child with a habit of chewing her lip:

"Rickon needs you," Robb said sharply. "He's only three, he doesn't understand what's happening. He thinks everyone has deserted him, so he follows me around all day, clutching my leg and crying. I don't know what to do with him." He paused a moment, chewing on his lower lip the way he'd done when he was little. "Mother, I need you too. I'm trying but I can't … I can't do it all by myself." His voice broke with sudden emotion, and Catelyn remembered that he was only fourteen. She wanted to get up and go to him, but Bran was still holding her hand and she could not move. (Catelyn III in Game)

[Philokles]

5 hours ago, dornishdame said:

She raised her hand to her cheek, more surprised than hurt. "Why did you do that?"

"It is Arya of House Stark who chews on her lip whenever she is thinking. Are you Arya of House Stark?"

"I am no one." She was angry. "Who are you?" (Cat of the Canals in Feast)

Although she is most associated with it, Arya is not the only Stark child with a habit of chewing her lip:

"Rickon needs you," Robb said sharply. "He's only three, he doesn't understand what's happening. He thinks everyone has deserted him, so he follows me around all day, clutching my leg and crying. I don't know what to do with him." He paused a moment, chewing on his lower lip the way he'd done when he was little. "Mother, I need you too. I'm trying but I can't … I can't do it all by myself." His voice broke with sudden emotion, and Catelyn remembered that he was only fourteen. She wanted to get up and go to him, but Bran was still holding her hand and she could not move. (Catelyn III in Game)

I was paying attention to who else bites their lip on my last read - the ones I can remember are Sansa, Jon and Jeyne Poole when pretending to be Arya.

[Lost Melnibonean]

We should have known that Cersei was a descendant of Rohanne. . .

Quote

 

“Forgive us, Lady Rohanne.” The speaker was a pretty young lord with the Caswell centaur embroidered on his doublet. “This great oaf took the Lady Helicent for you.”

Dunk looked from one lady to the other. “You are the Red Widow?” he heard himself blurt out. “But you’re too—”

“Young?” The girl tossed her longbow to the lanky lad he’d seen her shooting with. “I am five-and twenty, as it happens. Or was it small you meant to say?”

“—pretty. It was pretty .” Dunk did not know where that came from, but he was glad it came. He liked her nose, and the strawberry-blond color of her hair, and the small but well-shaped breasts beneath her leather jerkin. “I thought that you’d be . . . I mean . . . they said you were four times a widow, so . . .”

 

The Hedge Knight

Quote

"Truly, sister, you were born to be a widow."

Tyrion I, Clash 3

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 1-4-2016 at 3:09 PM, The Fattest Leech said:

Just saw this link. How cool. Thank you. 

22 minutes ago, Sept Sev said:

I was paying attention to who else bites their lip on my last read - the ones I can remember are Sansa, Jon and Jeyne Poole when pretending to be Arya.

Would you happen to have the quotes?  

[Philokles]

32 minutes ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Would you happen to have the quotes?  

Sansa:

"Sansa bit her lip and nodded. Arya lowered her face to stare sullenly at her plate. She could feel tears stinging her eyes. She rubbed them away angrily, determined not to cry." Arya II, AGOT.

"Abashed, Sansa bit her lip and huddled down in silence. The rest was rowing, rowing, rowing." Sansa V, ASOS.

 

Jeyne:

"She bit her lip. "You may not recall, my lord, as I was littler then . . . but I had the honor to meet you at Winterfell when King Robert came to visit my father Lord Eddard." She lowered her big brown eyes and mumbled, "I'm Arya Stark."" Jaime IX, ASOS.

 

Jon:

"Jon chewed his lip. The raven flapped its wings at him. "War, war, war, war," it sang." Jon IX, AGOT.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

15 minutes ago, Sept Sev said:

Sansa:

"Sansa bit her lip and nodded. Arya lowered her face to stare sullenly at her plate. She could feel tears stinging her eyes. She rubbed them away angrily, determined not to cry." Arya II, AGOT.

"Abashed, Sansa bit her lip and huddled down in silence. The rest was rowing, rowing, rowing." Sansa V, ASOS.

 

Jeyne:

"She bit her lip. "You may not recall, my lord, as I was littler then . . . but I had the honor to meet you at Winterfell when King Robert came to visit my father Lord Eddard." She lowered her big brown eyes and mumbled, "I'm Arya Stark."" Jaime IX, ASOS.

 

Jon:

"Jon chewed his lip. The raven flapped its wings at him. "War, war, war, war," it sang." Jon IX, AGOT.

Cool, thanks!  

[Winter Rose Crown]

It feels significant that the civil war was called a dance of dragons and the book is called a dance with dragons. I don't know what it means but I'm sure the with/of change was intentional on grrm's part.

[PrettyPig]

Quote

Martell gave a shrug. "In Dorne of old before we married Daeron, it was said that all flowers bow before the sun. Should the roses seek to hinder me I'll gladly trample them underfoot."

"As you trampled Willas Tyrell?"

The Dornishman did not react as expected. "I had a letter from Willas not half a year past. We share an interest in fine horseflesh. He has never borne me any ill will for what happened in the lists."

Tyrion meets Oberyn in late 299.   "Half a year past" - when Oberyn received a letter from Willas Tyrell about this "fine horseflesh" - would have been shortly after Dany, wife of a great Dothraki horselord, surfaced in Qarth with three dragons.

[Isobel Harper]

2 hours ago, Winter Rose Crown said:

It feels significant that the civil war was called a dance of dragons and the book is called a dance with dragons. I don't know what it means but I'm sure the with/of change was intentional on grrm's part.

Cyvasse is introduced in AFfC.  It's featured heavily in this book, as well as in ADwD.  I think the author's intent for introducing the game is to depict an upcoming "game."  "Game" is a euphemism for war.  In AFfC and ADwD, the "game" is being set and the pieces are falling into place.  The next "game" is the Second Dance of the Dragons.  ADwD features the "dragons" finding their place on the board, hence "A Dance with Dragons."  Daenerys ends up in the Dothraki Sea, Aegon lands in Westeros, and Jon... well, we'll see. 

To summarize, AFfC features the characters that will influence the "game" in an indirect way.  ADwD features the characters that will be the more prominent figures in DoD 2.0.  The latter of these characters are essentially the "pieces."  Note, a "piece" is not the same as a "pawn."  And one can play an important, direct role in the DoD 2.0 without being a true "player."  (Aegon comes to mind.)  And one can influence politics and important people (i.e. be a "player") without being a true "piece."  (LF comes to mind.)

A few examples: Arianne will likely (heavily?) influence Aegon.  Dorne will certainly effect Aegon's conquest; Doran's choice to support Aegon or not will heavily influence the credit to his claim.  Cersei's actions in AFfC, namely with the arming of the Faith Militant and the upcoming queens' trials, will also effect upcoming conquest(s): The Faith Militant might choose to support Aegon directly.  The trials might irreversibly soil either queen's reputation (even if neither are found guilty) and cause the public to support another "more reputable" claim.  Or if one (or both) of the queens are found guilty, the resulting chaos will likely make any conquest of KL that much easier.

 

[Lord Wraith]

3 hours ago, PrettyPig said:

Tyrion meets Oberyn in late 299.   "Half a year past" - when Oberyn received a letter from Willas Tyrell about this "fine horseflesh" - would have been shortly after Dany, wife of a great Dothraki horselord, surfaced in Qarth with three dragons.

Very nice catch. I have often wondered if there was some secret plot between the Martells and Olenna/Willas.