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Melisandre, Ghost, and Bloodraven


StarkofWinterfell

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I was reading a thread where one user speculated that Bloodraven warged Ghost to lead Jon to the dragonglass at the Fist. Specifically, it was this post: 

That got me thinking though. Ghost and Melisandre have a pretty good relationship, almost as good as Ghost and Jon and arguably more so. If Bloodraven was warging Ghost, he could do so again and when we see Ghost and Melisandre together, it could be Bloodraven.

The question I posit is what if Bloodraven and Melisandre are secretly in league with each other? She followed Stannis to the Wall to defeat the wildlings, but what if it was to get closer to Bloodraven?

It is heavily implied that Melisandre is older than she seems and might be using a glamour to appear young and beautiful. She is similar to Bloodraven in many ways and most people think they'll be enemies but if they're both communing through Ghost, I think there is a good chance they are working for the same team.

 

 

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First of all I'd like to ask you why you think Ghost has a closer relationship with Mel than Jon. To me, that's wrong on every level, but especially because Jon is Ghost, Ghost is Jon. 

As to Mel and Bloodraven, I don't think so. We're in her head for the first time in Dance, and when she sees Bloodraven and Bran in a vision, she doesn't know who they are, and asks herself whether he is 'the enemy'. If they'd been working together, she'd know even if she'd never met him before. 

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18 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

First of all I'd like to ask you why you think Ghost has a closer relationship with Mel than Jon. To me, that's wrong on every level, but especially because Jon is Ghost, Ghost is Jon. 

As to Mel and Bloodraven, I don't think so. We're in her head for the first time in Dance, and when she sees Bloodraven and Bran in a vision, she doesn't know who they are, and asks herself whether he is 'the enemy'. If they'd been working together, she'd know even if she'd never met him before. 

Mel and Ghost have bonded on a level that perplexes Jon. They're unbelievably close as Ghost doesn't act like that around anyone else.

 

Quote

 

“May I touch your ... wolf?” The thought made Jon uneasy. “Best not.” “He will not harm me. You call him Ghost, yes?” “Yes, but ...” “Ghost.” Melisandre made the word a song. The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers. Jon let out a white breath. “He is not always so ...” “... warm? Warmth calls to warmth, Jon Snow.” Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others. Jon had seen Ghost’s eyes blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right. “Ghost,” he called. “To me.” The direwolf looked at him as if he were a stranger. Jon frowned in disbelief. “That’s ... queer.” - Jon ADWD

 

Here Ghost disobeys Jon and sticks by Mel's side. People say that she was putting a spell on Ghost, but I don't think that is likely.

But as for Mel and BR, Mel would never actually have to meet BR since he's attached to a tree. They can still talk through Ghost though.

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9 minutes ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

Mel and Ghost have bonded on a level that perplexes Jon. They're unbelievably close as Ghost doesn't act like that around anyone else.

 

 

Here Ghost disobeys Jon and sticks by Mel's side. People say that she was putting a spell on Ghost, but I don't think that is likely.

But as for Mel and BR, Mel would never actually have to meet BR since he's attached to a tree. They can still talk through Ghost though.

Idk, for me if Ghost is connected with Mel or being warged by BR all the time it ruins the connection between Jon and Ghost, makes it less special somehow. 

I think as others have said that Ghost and the other direwolves have some abilities and senses that help them protect who ever they have bonded with. 

Ghost sticking with Mel may just be Ghost's way of telling Jon to trust Mel or listen to her. We know the wolves go nuts when they sense danger to their humans. This may just be an example of the Ghost trying to help Jon as he senses something good or advantageous for Jon (just like with the dragonglass cache)

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1 hour ago, StarkofWinterfell said:

Mel and Ghost have bonded on a level that perplexes Jon. They're unbelievably close as Ghost doesn't act like that around anyone else.

 

 

Here Ghost disobeys Jon and sticks by Mel's side. People say that she was putting a spell on Ghost, but I don't think that is likely.

But as for Mel and BR, Mel would never actually have to meet BR since he's attached to a tree. They can still talk through Ghost though.

I still don't buy it. That scene with Ghost and Mel and Jon is a one-off, at least so far. And to me the clear clue that there is something off in that scene is not that Ghost is very friendly and warm towards Mel, but rather that he looks at Jon as if he were a stranger. In Mel's chapter - which comes shortly after the one you quoted, Jon VI - we have this:

 

While the boy was gone, Melisandre washed herself and changed her robes. Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them. 

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

And back to Jon VI:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI 

"Yes, but …"

"Ghost." Melisandre made the word a song.

The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers.

I don't know exactly what is going on, no one does; at this point, it's all speculation. But it seems clear to me that something is going on.

Again, Mel and BR working through Ghost, still don't buy it. As I said before, even if they had never met, if she's working with him through a direwolf, she would have to make some connection when she sees BR and Bran as a boy, then a wolf, then a boy again. As a matter of fact, it's kinda silly that she doesn't seem to connect this vision with Jon at all.

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1 hour ago, kissdbyfire said:

As to Mel and Bloodraven, I don't think so. We're in her head for the first time in Dance, and when she sees Bloodraven and Bran in a vision, she doesn't know who they are, and asks herself whether he is 'the enemy'. If they'd been working together, she'd know even if she'd never met him before. 

This is what came to mind for me, too.

As for Mel and Ghost, I lean toward thinking she uses some kind of spell or glamor with Ghost. When Mel said Ghost's name, she "made the word a song."

...just saw I got ninja'd by kissedbyfire with what I was going to get into. So, what she said. :ph34r:

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7 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I still don't buy it. That scene with Ghost and Mel and Jon is a one-off, at least so far. And to me the clear clue that there is something off in that scene is not that Ghost is very friendly and warm towards Mel, but rather that he looks at Jon as if he were a stranger. In Mel's chapter - which comes shortly after the one you quoted, Jon VI - we have this:

 

While the boy was gone, Melisandre washed herself and changed her robes. Her sleeves were full of hidden pockets, and she checked them carefully as she did every morning to make certain all her powders were in place. Powders to turn fire green or blue or silver, powders to make a flame roar and hiss and leap up higher than a man is tall, powders to make smoke. A smoke for truth, a smoke for lust, a smoke for fear, and the thick black smoke that could kill a man outright. The red priestess armed herself with a pinch of each of them. 

The carved chest that she had brought across the narrow sea was more than three-quarters empty now. And while Melisandre had the knowledge to make more powders, she lacked many rare ingredients. My spells should suffice. She was stronger at the Wall, stronger even than in Asshai. Her every word and gesture was more potent, and she could do things that she had never done before. Such shadows as I bring forth here will be terrible, and no creature of the dark will stand before them. With such sorceries at her command, she should soon have no more need of the feeble tricks of alchemists and pyromancers.

And back to Jon VI:

A Dance with Dragons - Jon VI 

"Yes, but …"

"Ghost." Melisandre made the word a song.

The direwolf padded toward her. Wary, he stalked about her in a circle, sniffing. When she held out her hand he smelled that too, then shoved his nose against her fingers.

I don't know exactly what is going on, no one does; at this point, it's all speculation. But it seems clear to me that something is going on.

Again, Mel and BR working through Ghost, still don't buy it. As I said before, even if they had never met, if she's working with him through a direwolf, she would have to make some connection when she sees BR and Bran as a boy, then a wolf, then a boy again. As a matter of fact, it's kinda silly that she doesn't seem to connect this vision with Jon at all.

Italicized and bolded at the end, doesn't she see Jon as a man, then wolf, then man again?  I'm pretty sure she just see's BR and Bran in the tree.

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19 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

That scene with Ghost and Mel and Jon is a one-off, at least so far. And to me the clear clue that there is something off in that scene is not that Ghost is very friendly and warm towards Mel, but rather that he looks at Jon as if he were a stranger

That's precisely the disturbing part.  I think this is foreshadowing both that Melisandre will seduce Jon, involving some sexual blood-magic, as is her modus operandi, as well as an ominous precedent set up by GRRM, so we are not surprised when Ghost approaches Melisandre willingly, before she slaughters him.  Sad, but that's what I fear is going to happen.

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8 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Italicized and bolded at the end, doesn't she see Jon as a man, then wolf, then man again?  I'm pretty sure she just see's BR and Bran in the tree.

Of course it's Jon, sorry! 

12 minutes ago, sarah.jenice said:

This is what came to mind for me, too.

As for Mel and Ghost, I lean toward thinking she uses some kind of spell or glamor with Ghost. When Mel said Ghost's name, she "made the word a song."

...just saw I got ninja'd by kissedbyfire with what I was going to get into. So, what she said. :ph34r:

I obviously agree here. :P 

Serioulsy now, yeah, I think Mel 'making the word a song' is a big clue. The whole scene has a pretty eerie atmosphere, I love it. 

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1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

That's precisely the disturbing part.  I think this is foreshadowing both that Melisandre will seduce Jon, involving some sexual blood-magic, as is her modus operandi, as well as an ominous precedent set up by GRRM, so we are not surprised when Ghost approaches Melisandre willingly, before she slaughters him.  Sad, but that's what I fear is going to happen.

Do you mean as in Mel'll kill Ghost to revive Jon?

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

Of course it's Jon, sorry! 

I obviously agree here. :P 

Serioulsy now, yeah, I think Mel 'making the word a song' is a big clue. The whole scene has a pretty eerie atmosphere, I love it. 

Definitely. It also brings to mind Mirri Maz Duur singing to work her blood magic spells. 

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Just now, kissdbyfire said:

Do you mean as in Mel'll kill Ghost to revive Jon?

Yes, in line with the cost of forging a power like 'lightbringer,' no savior without sacrifice, Ghost as Jon's Nissa. Remember, Varamyr's prologue in ADWD:

Quote

A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change."

 

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1 minute ago, ravenous reader said:

Yes, in line with the cost of forging a power like 'lightbringer,' no savior without sacrifice, Ghost as Jon's Nissa. Remember, Varamyr's prologue in ADWD:

 

So you think Jon will have to sacrifice Ghost before he can bond or ride a dragon? 

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2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Yes, in line with the cost of forging a power like 'lightbringer,' no savior without sacrifice, Ghost as Jon's Nissa. Remember, Varamyr's prologue in ADWD:

 

I know it's a theory many believe, but I'm not one of them. 

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1 minute ago, RobOsevens said:

So you think Jon will have to sacrifice Ghost before he can bond or ride a dragon? 

Somehow, I can't see Jon killing Ghost himself, so I guess the parallels with the Nissa myth are not completely symmetrical.  However, I can imagine a scenario where Jon gets trapped in Ghost's body/mind, and has to be jolted out, and back into his own body again by Melisandre-- but the cost of that resurrection is Ghost.  I don't necessarily think Ghost's death is a condition for riding a dragon, but it would certainly make it easier for GRRM if there weren't two competing 'pets' in the picture!

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2 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Somehow, I can't see Jon killing Ghost himself, so I guess the parallels with the Nissa myth are not completely symmetrical.  However, I can imagine a scenario where Jon gets trapped in Ghost's body/mind, and has to be jolted out, and back into his own body again by Melisandre-- but the cost of that resurrection is Ghost.  I don't necessarily think Ghost's death is a condition for riding a dragon, but it would certainly make it easier for GRRM if there weren't two competing 'pets' in the picture!

Jon having to sacrifice Ghost would be intense though. Especially if Jon comes back somehow harder and more willing to make difficult decisions in his battle against the Others, sacrificing Ghost would be something he may baulk at... I hadn't considered this before your previous post but now I find it compelling.

Hopefully it doesnt happen though

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44 minutes ago, sarah.jenice said:

<snip>

As for Mel and Ghost, I lean toward thinking she uses some kind of spell or glamor with Ghost. When Mel said Ghost's name, she "made the word a song."

<snip>

I agree.

When looking at the Ghost, Mel & Jon reaction I need to look at the Mance, Jon & Mel reaction:

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck and spoke a word.

The sound echoed queerly from the corners of the room and twisted like a worm inside their ears. The wildling heard one word, the crow another. Neither was the word that left her lips. c.31

 

“Ghost.” Melisandre made the word a song. <snip> Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others.

When Mel tricked Ghost she also tricked Jon, he thought he saw Ygritte. c.28

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Sorry, haven't read beyond the OP.

The four things that spring to my mind...

1) We know from Varamyr's POV prologue that wolves mate for life, are the hardest creatures to skinchange. Jon and Ghost have a strong bond and it seems Jon has already unconsciously, "wolf dream" warged Ghost. It'd be very difficult for anybody else (like BR) to warg Ghost.

2) Melisandre definitely gets along with Ghost. Why? Melisandre sees Jon's/Ghost's importance in the fires, Ghost senses something? What? Maybe just that she is benevolent (for now) towards his human. That seems to be the level the direwolves operate on.

3) I do not think BR and Melisandre are in league. Mel sees him (the vision she saw in the fires) as an enemy, the Great Other. OK, we know that Mel's visions might be true but her interpretations are way off. So we're none the wiser.

4) What I find interesting is the obvious affinity Ghost and Val have. Jon's jealous of it. (Poor Jon, two women taking his wolf from him... Ygritte never did.)

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6 minutes ago, talvikorppi said:

Sorry, haven't read beyond the OP.

The four things that spring to my mind...

1) We know from Varamyr's POV prologue that wolves mate for life, are the hardest creatures to skinchange. Jon and Ghost have a strong bond and it seems Jon has already unconsciously, "wolf dream" warged Ghost. It'd be very difficult for anybody else (like BR) to warg Ghost.

2) Melisandre definitely gets along with Ghost. Why? Melisandre sees Jon's/Ghost's importance in the fires, Ghost senses something? What? Maybe just that she is benevolent (for now) towards his human. That seems to be the level the direwolves operate on.

3) I do not think BR and Melisandre are in league. Mel sees him (the vision she saw in the fires) as an enemy, the Great Other. OK, we know that Mel's visions might be true but her interpretations are way off. So we're none the wiser.

4) What I find interesting is the obvious affinity Ghost and Val have. Jon's jealous of it. (Poor Jon, two women taking his wolf from him... Ygritte never did.)

No, wolves are not the hardest animals to warg/skinchange into.

ADwD, Prologue

Dogs were the easiest beasts to bond with; they lived so close to men that they were almost human. Slipping into a dog's skin was like putting on an old boot, its leather softened by wear. As a boot was shaped to accept a foot, a dog was shaped to accept a collar, even a collar no human eye could see. Wolves were harder. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf. "Wolves and women wed for life," Haggon often said. "You take one, that's a marriage. The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you're part of him. Both of you will change."

Other beasts were best left alone, the hunter had declared. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man became a coward. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels … Haggon did not hold with such. "Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won't like what you'd become." Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. "Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who've tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue."

Wolves are harder than dogs, but by no means the hardest of all. 

As to Mel seeing their importance in the flames, as so often is the case with Mel, she sees but still she doesn't get it right. 

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2 hours ago, RobOsevens said:

Jon having to sacrifice Ghost would be intense though. Especially if Jon comes back somehow harder and more willing to make difficult decisions in his battle against the Others, sacrificing Ghost would be something he may baulk at... I hadn't considered this before your previous post but now I find it compelling.

Hopefully it doesnt happen though

It would 'ruin' Jon's character for me if he could bring himself to kill Ghost.  As Dany (and we) learned from the lesson of Miri Maz Dur, the preservation of life should not come at the cost of the emptying-out of meaning.  So, I don't want to see Jon transformed into an avenging 'ice-zombie'-- or into a bloodthirsty marauding Targaryen, burning down the weirwoods, who has cut all ties to his northern heritage, which murdering Ghost would entail. The reason Dany put Drogo out of his misery, which was actually a state involving the absence of misery, indeed the absence of any identifiable human emotion, was that the mere fact of vegetative existence without the capacity for human attachments, human memory, rendered his existence, his very identity, his 'Drogoness,' if you will, null and void. 

Finally, the gods have been quite clear on how they view mistreatment of the direwolves (Sansa, privileging Joffrey's authority, and leaving Lady behind at the Trident; Ned, privileging Robert's authority, killing Lady; Rob, privileging the Westerling's and Spicer's authority, and turning on and sidelining Grey Wind):

Quote

And the gods help you if you neglect them, or brutalize them, or train them badly.

So, while I don't think it makes sense for Jon to do it, I still think Ghost is going to die-- perhaps just because I hate the idea so much...GRRM tends to go for the jugular when it comes to sentimentality!  And his name is 'Ghost,' after all...He was not meant long for this world.

2 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

I agree.

When looking at the Ghost, Mel & Jon reaction I need to look at the Mance, Jon & Mel reaction:

Melisandre touched the ruby at her neck and spoke a word.

The sound echoed queerly from the corners of the room and twisted like a worm inside their ears. The wildling heard one word, the crow another. Neither was the word that left her lips. c.31

 

“Ghost.” Melisandre made the word a song. <snip> Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others.

When Mel tricked Ghost she also tricked Jon, he thought he saw Ygritte. c.28

Yes, it would appear that Ghost has been glamored.  What makes it disturbing, is that thus far the direwolves have always been the first to identify deception.  It's threatening to find out that Mel's magic is stronger than that of the direwolves.

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