The Red Wedding has a big plot hole

[ummester]

So, I'm watching GoTs again in preparation for season 6 and I noticed something amiss.

In S1E09 Cat informs Robb that Walder Frey will give him 'all of his men, save 400 that will remain to protect the crossing'.

In S3E05 Robb decides to take Casterly Rock and that he will need to enlist the Frey's to replace the Karstarks to enable this. But he already has all of Walder's men? Why does he need to go and beg Walder to get something he already has?

I can't remember the details in the book but perhaps someone can explain this? Otherwise, it seems like Robb having Walder's men was retconned just so the red wedding could happen.

[Dragon in the North]

8 hours ago, ummester said:

So, I'm watching GoTs again in preparation for season 6 and I noticed something amiss.

In S1E09 Cat informs Robb that Walder Frey will give him 'all of his men, save 400 that will remain to protect the crossing'.

In S3E05 Robb decides to take Casterly Rock and that he will need to enlist the Frey's to replace the Karstarks to enable this. But he already has all of Walder's men? Why does he need to go and beg Walder to get something he already has?

I can't remember the details in the book but perhaps someone can explain this? Otherwise, it seems like Robb having Walder's men was retconned just so the red wedding could happen.

When Robb broke his oath to Walder Frey, the Freys abandoned his host and returned to the Twins.

[ummester]

9 minutes ago, Dragon in the North said:

When Robb broke his oath to Walder Frey, the Freys abandoned his host and returned to the Twins.

So that is clarified in the books and just left out of the show?

[Dragon in the North]

Just now, ummester said:

So that is clarified in the books and just left out of the show?

It's implied in the show, but not stated outright.

[ummester]

1 hour ago, Dragon in the North said:

It's implied in the show, but not stated outright.

Implied how? By dropping a retcon bomb on us in season 3

Can anyone remember from the books if it explains the Frey's leaving Robb's army, or what details are given on this?

[JonSnow4President]

8 minutes ago, ummester said:

Implied how? By dropping a retcon bomb on us in season 3

Can anyone remember from the books if it explains the Frey's leaving Robb's army, or what details are given on this?

They make a big ruckus and stomp a Stark banner into the mud of Riverrun's courtyard while Catelyn watches from her house arrest, IIRC.

This, of course, is before Robb returns from his Western campaign, so Catelyn doesn't know the reason for it.  

 

 

Quote

 

Something else was wrong as well. On the day her brother returned, a few hours after their argument, she had heard angry voices from the yard below. When she climbed to the roof to see, there were knots of men gathered across the castle beside the main gate. Horses were being led from the stables, saddled and bridled, and there was shouting, though Catelyn was too far away to make out the words. One of Robb's white banners lay on the ground, and one of the knights turned his horse and trampled over the direwolf as he spurred toward the gate. Several others did the same. Those are men who fought with Edmure on the fords, she thought. What could have made them so angry? Has my brother slighted them somehow, given them some insult? She thought she recognized Ser Perwyn Frey, who had traveled with her to Bitterbridge and Storm's End and back, and his bastard half brother Martyn Rivers as well, but from this vantage it was hard to be certain. Close to forty men poured out through the castle gates, to what end she did not know.

They did not come back. Nor would Maester Vyman tell her who they had been, where they had gone, or what had made them so angry. "I am here to see to your father, and only that, my lady," he said. "Your brother will soon be Lord of Riverrun. What he wishes you to know, he must tell you."

 

 

Quote

 

"And you," she said softly, "have lost the Freys."

His wince told all. She understood the angry voices now, why Perwyn Frey and Martyn Rivers had left in such haste, trampling Robb's banner into the ground as they went.

"Dare I ask how many swords come with your bride, Robb?"

 

 

[Dragon in the North]

11 minutes ago, ummester said:

Implied how? By dropping a retcon bomb on us in season 3

Can anyone remember from the books if it explains the Frey's leaving Robb's army, or what details are given on this?

Catelyn made it clear that by marrying Talisa, Walder Frey would turn against them, which implied he would draw his support.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

All the important stuff happen off camera, so the writers can "shock" you.

[A Ghost of Someone]

Show Robb willingly and without any good reason screwed up his alliance with Walder Frey. The books it is a little more complicated.

[Carcer]

Show Robb willingly and without any good reason screwed up his alliance with Walder Frey. The books it is a little more complicated.

He was in love

I never realized that GoT didn't bother with that tiny detail, probably because I knew from the books that the Freys left Rob. But nothing was shown and nothing was said in the show about the Freys leaving? Sloppy.

[ummester]

JonSnow4President - thanks for that - yes, that provides exactly what I was looking for.

3 hours ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

All the important stuff happen off camera, so the writers can "shock" you.

I thought about that after asking the question - the twists in GoT are easy to see coming when you know what is omitted, not what is included.

The best way to cover this would have been when Karstark said to Robb (I think E302) that he started loosing the war when he married her - ie the nurse, as simple reference to the Frey's leaving should have been included. like 'The Frey's have left your ranks, you started loosing this war when you married her.'

[Rhodan]

It was full retcon. After all, in season two Robb said he is going to marry Frey girl "for the bridge". In season 3 he claims that "Walder Frey never contributed to the army yet."

[Primalsplit]

11 hours ago, Carcer said:

He was in love

No, He was not in love. He was in looove.

As in Hollwood looove where they must marry and live happily ever after. Not like Robb could just keep her as a concubine or anything.

[Mandzipop]

I was unsullied until half way through season 3.

Unsullied wouldn't have picked that up as a plot hole because frankly, it was impossible to tell which character was which. The Freys? Who were they? Just lost faces in a cast of many. To those who had read the books, it appears that prior knowledge meant it was missed.

If that were now it would be picked to pieces with a fine toothed comb as the plot is currently slightly less complex and there are less faces that blend into one. We also are more familiar with some of the characters.

However, I'll put money on my other half getting confused if Walder Frey is shown after Balon Greyjoy's death. He'll say wasn't he pushed off the bridge by that pirate?

[Rubicante]

This was something that I wondered too, but being a book reader I knew why the Frey's had already abandoned Robb.  I kind of just assumed that the Frey's leaving Robb was addressed at some point in the show, but now that I think about it I don't think there ever was any mention whatsoever. 

[Rhodan]

1 hour ago, Rubicante said:

This was something that I wondered too, but being a book reader I knew why the Frey's had already abandoned Robb.  I kind of just assumed that the Frey's leaving Robb was addressed at some point in the show, but now that I think about it I don't think there ever was any mention whatsoever. 

See my post.

[Stag_legion]

On 3/14/2016 at 7:15 AM, ummester said:

So, I'm watching GoTs again in preparation for season 6 and I noticed something amiss.

In S1E09 Cat informs Robb that Walder Frey will give him 'all of his men, save 400 that will remain to protect the crossing'.

In S3E05 Robb decides to take Casterly Rock and that he will need to enlist the Frey's to replace the Karstarks to enable this. But he already has all of Walder's men? Why does he need to go and beg Walder to get something he already has?

I can't remember the details in the book but perhaps someone can explain this? Otherwise, it seems like Robb having Walder's men was retconned just so the red wedding could happen.

The bigger problem was how the show made it seem like Robb could actually take Casterly rock. The show either intentionally or unintentionally fails to point out how screwed Robb's campaign was after Stannis' defeat at blackwater. In the books we are told how bad it is, and Robb can only hope to go on the defensive and make the war costly enough for the lannister camp for them to agree to northern independence or to provide  more lenient terms for Robb to bend the knee. Red wedding happened because Robb was going to lose the war and opportunist freys and boltons were ready to switch sides and reap the reward. If stannis had won at blackwater and lannisters were losing the war there would be no red wedding. In fact there would probably be defections from the lannister camp, at the very least most of the crownlands would have switched to stannis and the vale might have finally entered the war against lannisters.

[Rhodan]

1 hour ago, Stag_legion said:

The bigger problem was how the show made it seem like Robb could actually take Casterly rock. The show either intentionally or unintentionally fails to point out how screwed Robb's campaign was after Stannis' defeat at blackwater. In the books we are told how bad it is, and Robb can only hope to go on the defensive and make the war costly enough for the lannister camp for them to agree to northern independence or to provide  more lenient terms for Robb to bend the knee. Red wedding happened because Robb was going to lose the war and opportunist freys and boltons were ready to switch sides and reap the reward. If stannis had won at blackwater and lannisters were losing the war there would be no red wedding. In fact there would probably be defections from the lannister camp, at the very least most of the crownlands would have switched to stannis and the vale might have finally entered the war against lannisters.

You see, in the series they made much bigger deal out of Karstarks´s forces abandoning him (supposedly half of his army), so he tried to rectify it and make even bigger strike with the support of Walder Frey, who "hasn´t conributed to the army yet".  

[Ibbison from Ibben]

The show glosses over almost all the military details. There seems to be an attitude that hardcore fantasy fans get into those parts of the storyline but non-fantasy viewers would be bored to tears by them. It's part of the general trend to avoid as many of the fantasy aspects as possible. The show is basically a combination of political drama crossed with an action/adventure flick, with some CGI dragons added.  They've tried to "de-fantasy" it as much as they can. Thus the absence of much of the backstory, the prophesies, etc.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 hour ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

The show glosses over almost all the military details. There seems to be an attitude that hardcore fantasy fans get into those parts of the storyline but non-fantasy viewers would be bored to tears by them. It's part of the general trend to avoid as many of the fantasy aspects as possible. The show is basically a combination of political drama crossed with an action/adventure flick, with some CGI dragons added.  They've tried to "de-fantasy" it as much as they can. Thus the absence of much of the backstory, the prophesies, etc.

Mostly its just very difficult to convey that level of detail and have the audience understand the ins and outs of a military campaign. Mostly the audience doesn't care about that level of detail, they just want to know what the story is, and what happens to the characters. Its really only a very select few on internet boards who will obsess about things like this, as if they are important.