MisterOJ Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Time for a new thread. I liked this week's episode a lot. I know there's a lot of reaction about how the Saviors (thus far) have looked like a bunch of chumps (and they have) but I think it can be somewhat explained away if you consider it's probably been months since they ran into anyone like Rick's groups. If they ever did at all. What we know about them so far is that they are bullies and act like bullies. We've seen that in the roadside meeting with Daryl/Sasha/Abe and from the tales of the people from Hilltop. The Saviors come in like badasses, kill some folks, take what they want and leave the other people cowed. Granted, it still defies belief that the scoreboard is something like 35-0 in favor of our group. They sure should have taken *some* losses in the last couple weeks. But, it's not that hard to imagine them bossing the Saviors when they had the element of surprise on their side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kairparavel Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 Obviously this was a satelite base of theirs. The question is, how many other bases do they have? No matter how badass you are, there is an issue of scale that cannot be ignored. If Rick's group has 20 proper fighters, and Negan has 500, well, it is game over for our heroes. Since we know it won't be game over for our heroes we have to assume that Negan more or less has manpower roughly equivalent to that of the Governer. Or maybe twice that many, else Alexandria surviving behind its flimsy walls just becomes silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red snow Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 33 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said: Obviously this was a satelite base of theirs. The question is, how many other bases do they have? No matter how badass you are, there is an issue of scale that cannot be ignored. If Rick's group has 20 proper fighters, and Negan has 500, well, it is game over for our heroes. Since we know it won't be game over for our heroes we have to assume that Negan more or less has manpower roughly equivalent to that of the Governer. Or maybe twice that many, else Alexandria surviving behind its flimsy walls just becomes silly. At 35-0 they may well need more than 500 fighters but your sentiment makes sense. The non-fighting alexandrians may still be useful for farming so thay might well save alexandria but it's hard to think why Negan would spare any of Rick's group. Unless, of course, he asks them to join him? Dude could be "survival of the fittest" and wishing he'd seen the new x-men film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 No, I'm not considering any "spare them' scenario. Either Negan is powerful enough to wipe Rick out, or he is not. And if he is powerful enough, then one would hope that Rick is savvy enough to retreat and start some type of guerrilla warfare against the superior force, until he whittles Negan down enough to defeat him. But that would mean abandoning Alexandria, so I can only assume too much has been invested in it by the Show to have it abandoned. Hence, the only remaining option would be a kind of stalemate, where neither force is powerful enough to defeat the other for a while. Of course, that assumes Negan is the big bad that he has been built up to be, which I think he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isis Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 This current plotline takes me back to (the original) The Others in Lost, how they seemed all powerful and would just appear out of nowhere, take/do whatever they want and then disappear. It seemed like they must have much greater numbers for this to be possible but actually it was just because they'd been around far longer and just had way more knowledge of the lie of the land. But they certainly appeared invincible at first. I kind of hope we see something with that sort of impact here. Especially because Rick and Co. seem to be doing so well and handling it all with relative ease and relatively little loss at this point. So I would guess that they'll get their comeuppance by the end of the season and it will appear that they are totally fucked. Then we get a time jump in the next season where we'll see they've been under the yoke for a while? I want to be astounded at how this season finishes up. I accept I will probably be disappointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I enjoyed the episode even though the plot did not advance much. Thus far it appears that our group are not all that different from The Saviours. However, when Negan eventually does show up, I expect that the show will attempt to draw a clear line between the two groups where The Saviours = 'bad' and Our Group = 'good'. The "we are Negan" thing was a bit silly though. I don't think that The Saviours have been portrayed as a bunch of chumps. Yes, the body count in favour of our group is a little ridiculous but when you think about how these deaths came about, it isn't all that far-fetched - the bikers could not have foreseen that their targets would have a rocket launcher and then the outpost was attacked when most of the defenders were asleep by a group of well armed, hardened survivors with little qualms about killing. What is ridiculous is that our group have repeatedly come through these encounters with little more than scratches. If, say, Sasha or Abe were killed by the bikers before Daryl blows them up and Gabriel and/or Rosita were killed when the outpost was attacked, it would have been a bit more realistic. Thus far our group has had the element of surprise but that is gone now. The Saviours are clearly a well organised, well armed group what with the scouts, safe house, outpost and radio protocols. I expect there will be a huge backlash and the body count will be evened out somewhat. I hope that the introduction of Negan isn't dragged out but I have a feeling that it will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Just now, Consigliere said: I don't think that The Saviours have been portrayed as a bunch of chumps. Yes, the body count in favour of our group is a little ridiculous but when you think about how these deaths came about, it isn't all that far-fetched - the bikers could not have foreseen that their targets would have a rocket launcher and then the outpost was attacked when most of the defenders were asleep by a group of well armed, hardened survivors with little qualms about killing. What is ridiculous is that our group have repeatedly come through these encounters with little more than scratches. Which is why they look like chumps. You can talk about how numerous they are, how many bases they have and how they're organized (with different communication systems and scouts) but none of it matters when the deck is consistently stacked to make them look like Stormtroopers. Darryl should never have gotten that rocket launcher without anyone knowing. They should never have escaped either base completely clean. Negan's group are supposed to be hardened survivors too yet they can't even make Maggie think they could interrogate her. It's like saying Stormtroopers don't suck cause they're so many of them and Obi-Wan told us they're precise. Quote I enjoyed the episode even though the plot did not advance much. Thus far it appears that our group are not all that different from The Saviours. However, when Negan eventually does show up, I expect that the show will attempt to draw a clear line between the two groups where The Saviours = 'bad' and Our Group = 'good'. The "we are Negan" thing was a bit silly though. The show has already been doing this. Like, since the half-season started. 14 minutes ago, Isis said: I want to be astounded at how this season finishes up. I accept I will probably be disappointed. I think there was an article about Melissa McBride being unable to speak after reading the finale so...hopefully there'll be some surprises. It definitely seems to be trending that way imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kindly Old Man Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 21 minutes ago, Consigliere said: I don't think that The Saviours have been portrayed as a bunch of chumps. Yes, the body count in favour of our group is a little ridiculous but when you think about how these deaths came about, it isn't all that far-fetched - the bikers could not have foreseen that their targets would have a rocket launcher Darryl silently dispatching the armed Savior and blowing those guys up with the rocket launcher without causing a single injury to his group is the definition of far-fetched. I enjoyed watching it, but come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 26 minutes ago, Castel said: Which is why they look like chumps. You can talk about how numerous they are, how many bases they have and how they're organized (with different communication systems and scouts) but none of it matters when the deck is consistently stacked to make them look like Stormtroopers. Darryl should never have gotten that rocket launcher without anyone knowing. They should never have escaped either base completely clean. Negan's group are supposed to be hardened survivors too yet they can't even make Maggie think they could interrogate her. It's like saying Stormtroopers don't suck cause they're so many of them and Obi-Wan told us they're precise. Well, to me, The Saviours have not come across as chumps. I tend to agree with MisterOJ: It could very well be a case where The Saviours have never had a run in with a group who can match them in terms of firepower and willingness to kill. Killing off a few of our group would have made things a bit more realistic but the body count would still be heavily in their favour. Our group has had the element of surprise thus far and have made full use of it. Quote The show has already been doing this. Like, since the half-season started. They've tried but the line is not all that clear thus far. If anything, our group has been portrayed as being a step or two away from becoming like The Saviours. However, like I said, when Negan is introduced I expect that line to become a whole lot clearer. 14 minutes ago, Kindly Old Man said: Darryl silently dispatching the armed Savior and blowing those guys up with the rocket launcher without causing a single injury to his group is the definition of far-fetched. I enjoyed watching it, but come on. Not sure about it being the definition of far-fetched. Maybe I've just come to gloss over stuff like this since it happens quite often in the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Just now, Consigliere said: Well, to me, The Saviours have not come across as chumps. I tend to agree with MisterOJ: It could very well be a case where The Saviours have never had a run in with a group who can match them in terms of firepower and willingness to kill. Killing off a few of our group would have made things a bit more realistic but the body count would still be heavily in their favour. Our group has had the element of surprise thus far and have made full use of it. Right. I'm not definitively stating that the Saviors will never be scary antagonists. But they're not right now. They have informed powers at best. So, this can all be set-up for the Empire striking back, I'm not denying that. But, from what we've seen, they're just not that cool. Hence "they look like chumps (so far)" Quote They've tried but the line is not all that clear thus far. If anything, our group has been portrayed as being a step or two away from becoming like The Saviours. However, like I said, when Negan is introduced I expect that line to become a whole lot clearer. Why this entire situation came about seems to have been clearly articulated what with their trend of trying to dominate other groups.m See, this is what happens when the heroes are constantly winning. If that biker had killed Abraham or Sasha for asking a question, we wouldn't be discussing this. But now Rick looks like a bully for forgetting he had plot armor. It might not make the group that much better but it'd certainly end the discussion about why any of this happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Bauer 24 Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 6 hours ago, Castel said: Which is why they look like chumps. You can talk about how numerous they are, how many bases they have and how they're organized (with different communication systems and scouts) but none of it matters when the deck is consistently stacked to make them look like Stormtroopers. Darryl should never have gotten that rocket launcher without anyone knowing. They should never have escaped either base completely clean. Negan's group are supposed to be hardened survivors too yet they can't even make Maggie think they could interrogate her. It's like saying Stormtroopers don't suck cause they're so many of them and Obi-Wan told us they're precise. The show has already been doing this. Like, since the half-season started. I think there was an article about Melissa McBride being unable to speak after reading the finale so...hopefully there'll be some surprises. It definitely seems to be trending that way imo. There's somebody from the cast that says something like this every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 On 3/15/2016 at 7:26 AM, Free Northman Reborn said: Obviously this was a satelite base of theirs. The question is, how many other bases do they have? No matter how badass you are, there is an issue of scale that cannot be ignored. If Rick's group has 20 proper fighters, and Negan has 500, well, it is game over for our heroes. Since we know it won't be game over for our heroes we have to assume that Negan more or less has manpower roughly equivalent to that of the Governer. Or maybe twice that many, else Alexandria surviving behind its flimsy walls just becomes silly. It will also depend on how well armed they are. Given what we saw in the armory in the satellite location, you can probably assume they are well stocked with guns and ammo, but that could be another equalizer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterOJ Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 15 minutes ago, Swordfish said: It will also depend on how well armed they are. Given what we saw in the armory in the satellite location, you can probably assume they are well stocked with guns and ammo, but that could be another equalizer. You're probably right, but it would be interesting if that was the Saviors' main armory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Eh, nvm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Bauer 24 Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 58 minutes ago, Castel said: Eh, nvm Pretty sure Michael Cudlitz said the same thing last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castel Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Jack Bauer 24 said: Pretty sure Michael Cudlitz said the same thing last season. Nah, I had other indications of this season being big but I didn't want to pollute this thread with it. You have to tread carefully with what you pick up by osmosis. I will say that Carol dying at this point would be awesome except they have so many non-S1ers to kill off, and you know they prefer that. AND they just spent an episode on her Morganization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch-MaesterPhilip Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 4 hours ago, MisterOJ said: You're probably right, but it would be interesting if that was the Saviors' main armory. Did Rick and Co. clean out the armory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterOJ Posted March 17, 2016 Author Share Posted March 17, 2016 23 minutes ago, Arch-MaesterPhilip said: Did Rick and Co. clean out the armory? You have to assume they did, don't you? I guess there's a chance they didn't, but that would be unbelievably dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arch-MaesterPhilip Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 10 minutes ago, MisterOJ said: You have to assume they did, don't you? I guess there's a chance they didn't, but that would be unbelievably dumb. I would hope so but I don't remember them takin the guns from Terminus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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