Heresy 183

[Black Crow]

Just by way of a further thought on this, Craster related how Mance Rayder had sent for him, summoning him to join the trek and how he had refused because he was right by the Gods. We know of course that the latter assertion is true, so in effect what Craster was saying was that he had no need to flee - and was deliberately distancing himself from whatever silly game Mance is really playing. 

[Neds Secret]

On 18 March 2016 at 2:52 AM, Black Crow said:

As usual things are a little slow at the outset of a new thread so I thought it might be worth taking a critical look at the original synopsis which was released last year. It goes without saying that things have changed, not just since it was written but in some respects re-written between the synopsis and the appearance of the first book.

 

For the sake of clarity GRRM’s text is italicized. 

 

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

 

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

 

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume, A Dance with Dragons.

 

This all seems straightforward enough. The infamous Meereenese Knot has obviously delayed the advent of Danaerys the Dragonlord but it appears to be an essential plot element and therefore only delayed rather than discarded.

 

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

 

Again this seems straightforward, but what I suggest is significant is the way in which Others and White Walkers are not synonymous at this point. The “inhuman others” are “half-forgotten demons out of legend” but while that description can easily be applied to the walkers it is also applicable to the equally inhuman Children of the Forest and this passage clearly states that they “raise” both the undead and the neverborn – and the latter or walkers as we know know are created by magic and are not a race but rather “a different kind of life”.

 

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

 

For reasons to be discussed below those thirteen chapters must have been revised or re-written prior to publication.

 

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

 

 OK, so all five are going to make it through to the end.

 

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

 

 I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

 

Minor alteration here and nothing significant. As written Catelyn visits King’s Landing and gets away before everything goes down, and Arya escapes – but not to Winterfell.

 

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

 

Sansa doesn’t marry and doesn’t bear Joffrey a son, but she does betray her father and bitterly rues it. Tyrion does try to befriend Sansa and does become more and more disenchanted with his family, but Arya doesn’t come into the picture.

 

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

 

Tyrion of course is nowhere in sight and the burning of Winterfell is accomplished instead by one Ramsay Snow/Bolton of this parish.Otherwise this one’s interesting and reveals a big change. Bran awakes from his Crow dream to find himself crippled and so turns to magic. In global terms we see this happening but in the synopsis its much earlier in time. We’re not told how he is able to turn to magic but I do feel that rather than give him a copy of the Boys Bumper Book of Spells GRRM has woven this into the other storyline and those half-forgotten demons out of legend – the half-forgotten Children of the Forest.

 

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch.

 

Minor point here, Jon succeeded Lord Mormont and arguably only did so because his Uncle Benjen conveniently wasn’t around. This might suggest this is the only real significance of Benjen’s disappearance.

 

When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

 

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

 

Right, completely different from anything that happens in the books. Only Bran makes it across or rather under the Wall and Craster’s boys are nowhere in sight. Once again Bran is deploying magic too early and I think that this is all of a piece with GRRM deciding that Bran will learn his magic from the three-fingered tree-huggers.

 

Jon and Arya? No sign of it in the books but once again its interesting that this is the only reference to “the secret of Jon’s parentage”.

 

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

 

Slightly different as written but on the whole recognizable.

 

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

 

Well they’re certainly not standing on the order of their going but apart from the Arya business this is broadly in line with the text.

 

[7 Lines Redacted]

 

But that's the second book...

 

So what’s missing? Clearly it’s something important but not yet revealed, however “as the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book”. It’s certainly not that.

 

 

 

And then continuing the story with what appears to have been the synopsis/publisher’s blurb for the third book in the proposed trilogy. This one’s controversial in that it lacks the stamp of authenticity of the first, but it is consistent with it and appears to follow on from a [deliberately?] lost synopsis for Dance with Dragons for it open with Dany and the Dothraki in sole charge:

 

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

 

Not a lot we can say about this one other than that Danaerys the Dragonlord has most certainly not bowed down before Jon Snow and that I have a strong suspicion that the desperate journey into the heart of Ice was Bran’s trek into the Heart of Darkness. Be that as it may the reference to a second journey and the heart of fire, suggests that the final climactic battle might not be something so simple as everyone lining up to fight the blue-eyed in the twilight's last gleaming.

 

I am just pleased because the original outline states that the others are indeed inhuman beings that actually do plan to invade the seven kingdoms with the goal of killing of all warm life because  5 books in and they have done little to actually suggest that they really plan to do this. So knowing that in theorising like outline the author actually states that they will do this is in strange way reassuring to me.

[Matthew.]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

In this case I don't believe for one moment that "the Wildlings" are the Others or are behind the white walkers, far less the wights. GRRM is pretty explicit in distinguishing between the Wildlings and the "half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others."

 

To me, the Others presently being "inhuman" does not discount a human origin. As an example, Bloodraven-as-greenseer, Melisandre, the Undying, and perhaps even shadowbinders might all be perceived as inhuman. As just one potential scenario that could have given rise to the Others, I would suggest that those desperate humans trying to survive the Long Night may have turned to sorcery for survival, and became similarly "inhuman" in the practice of their rituals.

As an alternate human origin, what we would label ice magic may have just been one of several magics practiced at the time, in addition to the magic of the crannogs, the (speculatively, I'll grant you) magic and rituals of the Iron Islands, the magic of the CotF, and so forth. Thus, you may have had certain far northern clans/groups - such as the early Starks - creating white walkers and raising wights to conquer their neighbors.

I don't believe that the wildlings fleeing to the south are acting as a Trojan horse - Varamyr's prologue, Hardhome, and Tormund show that quite a few of the wildlings truly don't seem to understand what's happening - but I think it's far from a given that humans (or something formerly human) aren't responsible for the rise of the white walkers, both in the past and the present.

[wolfmaid7]

Well now we are talking about two different things.I have long believed that the Greenseers are responsible for the wws and the wights.So by human origin what do you mean the wws starting off as humans and being turned or indirect origin in that it is humans behind them as Feather propose.

It is a given somebody is making them its the who the somebody is that there are differing opnions on.If its the greenseers like i propose these guys for all intsense and purposes cease being human a long time ago same as Mel.What they may have been (human)is no longer the case atleast in a physical sense.

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Well now we are talking about two different things.I have long believed that the Greenseers are responsible for the wws and the wights.So by human origin what do you mean the wws starting off as humans and being turned or indirect origin in that it is humans behind them as Feather propose.

In this case, I'm specifically talking about who raised WWs and wights during the Dawn Age. I'm not proposing a theory, or even an answer, just acknowledging the possibility; if we take it as "possible" that a sorcerer of the CotF (a greenseer) could create a white walker, then I see no reason why a human sorcerer couldn't do the same thing, or perhaps even be the first to do such a thing--either as a part of the magic of the Old Gods, or even independently of it, as we don't know the full scope of what FM magic and belief may have been before they worshipped the weirwood.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

In this case, I'm specifically talking about who raised WWs and wights during the Dawn Age. I'm not proposing a theory, or even an answer, just acknowledging the possibility; if we take it as "possible" that a sorcerer of the CotF (a greenseer) could create a white walker, then I see no reason why a human sorcerer couldn't do the same thing, or perhaps even be the first to do such a thing--either as a part of the magic of the Old Gods, or even independently of it, as we don't know the full scope of what FM magic and belief may have been before they worshipped the weirwood.

Oh i see what your saying and i agree its definitely possible that a human person with some magical know how could have done it.However,if its a matter of the Wildlings we are looking for someone higher up the ladder than the "run of the mill" Wildling someone more along the lines of a Val.

I never delved into the how the wws may have come to be only the who could be doing it,but I really like JNR's take on how shadowbinding may have been used to create the wws.That opens it up to anyone who knows how to bind and cast another's shadow.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

To me, the Others presently being "inhuman" does not discount a human origin. As an example, Bloodraven-as-greenseer, Melisandre, the Undying, and perhaps even shadowbinders might all be perceived as inhuman. As just one potential scenario that could have given rise to the Others, I would suggest that those desperate humans trying to survive the Long Night may have turned to sorcery for survival, and became similarly "inhuman" in the practice of their rituals.

Where GRRM is specific by his standards is in referring to them as the "half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others." so of we are to postulate a "once human" origin its something which goes back a very long way. There's no reason to doubt that Bloodraven, Meliisandre, Moqorro and Craster's boys are no longer human, but its when we ask who was responsible that we have to look not for desperate men turned bad but those "half-forgotten demons out of legend" particularly given that we are in fact presented with the half-forgotten Children who sponsor Bloodraven.

[Black Crow]

8 hours ago, Neds Secret said:

I am just pleased because the original outline states that the others are indeed inhuman beings that actually do plan to invade the seven kingdoms with the goal of killing of all warm life because  5 books in and they have done little to actually suggest that they really plan to do this. So knowing that in theorising like outline the author actually states that they will do this is in strange way reassuring to me.

GRRM certainly introduces them as a threat, but how well that threat is understood is not necessarily straightforward. As I outlined in the commentary we already know that Craster's boys are created by magic, which brings us to the question of who created them and if the walkers and the others as not so synonymous as Bran thinks then the real others [and the reason for referring to them as the others] are most likely the Children of the Forest; and if that's so then whilst they are creating icy warriors or white rangers perfectly adapted for winter warfare that is because they themselves need to shelter from the icy blast - not because its their natural element. Again, as I said, it actually gets ambiguous at the end as to exactly what the threat really is with an implication in the two journeys that its not so simplistic as rounding up everybody in sight and hiring in a couple of dragons and that Azor Ahai bloke, all to see off the icy hordes.

[Melifeather]

Yes, Wolfmaid, I am suggesting Val and Dalla before her as ice priestesses. Both working ice magic to create a few white walkers, which are white shadows and require a life source. Just asMelisandre drew life from Stannis to create shadow babies, somehow Val uses Crasters sons to make white shadows.

[Matthew.]

I see no reason to insist that the Others must literally be "half-forgotten demons out of legend," since that's a jacket blurb style explanation of what the story appears to be, and not irrefutable classification of the Others. Magic can be greatly misrepresented in the oral traditions, such as Old Nan's tales of "evil beastlings," when the truth of skinchangers is far more nuanced. I also see no reason to believe that, if men were using ice sorcery, they needed to be "given" such sorcery through some allegiance to the CotF, rather than discovering or using it for their own ends, independently of the CotF.

How best to interpret those "inhuman" and "demon" comparisons is far from certain, given that the letter describes an obsolete version of the story, and GRRM clearly used similar language to describe the WWs in jacket blurbs and early advance copies of aGoT:

http://www.abebooks.com/Game-Thrones-Martin-George-R.R-Bantam/8178747223/bd

Quote

Long ago, a mysterious event threw the seasons out of balance. The golden summers go on for years, only to be followed by cruel winters that can last a generation. As the kingdom of the north is assailed by rival houses from the south, a greater danger threatens--the un-earthly demons of legend--the Neverborn--rise up to wreak havoc.

http://www.betterreading.com.au/book/a-game-of-thrones-a-song-of-ice-and-fire-1/

 

Quote

Martin unfolds with astonishing skill a tale of truly epic dimensions, thronged with memorable characters, a story of treachery and ambition, love and magic. Set in a fabulous world scarred by battle and catastrophe over 8000 years of recorded history, it tells of the deeds of men and women locked in the deadliest of conflicts and the terrible legacy they will leave their children. In the game of thrones, you win or you die. And in the bitter-cold, unliving lands beyond the Wall, a terrible winter gathers and the others – the undead, the neverborn, wildlings to whom the threat of the sword is nothing – make ready to descend on the realms of men.

 

[e1kabong]

I've been kicking around the World book and had a thought. I don't recall it coming up before, but the heresy thread is a giant of a thing, so it's possible I missed it. Can the death and subsequent rebirth of the Targaryen dragons be linked to a blood oath between the Starks and Targaryens? Specifically, during The Dance of the Dragons, Cregan Stark and the "black" side of House Targaryen made the Pact of Ice and Fire, wherein the Targs promised a royal marriage in return for Stark support (the houses of the north typically staying out of southern affairs) during the civil war.

Although the king that rose after the events of the Dance, Aegon III, showered the Starks with rewards, the marriage never did happen. It was directly after the Dance that the dragons withered and died. It's often said that Targs are "the blood of the dragon". If they broke a blood pact with the Starks, were their dragons forfeit? 

Following that line of logic, if we assume that Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark prior to their deaths, did that fulfillment of the pact pave the way for dragons to return only about a decade later? (I couldn't find any info on how long dragon eggs take to incubate/hatch, so timewise, it's speculation). Thus, perhaps the literary translation issues of the "Prince/Princess/Dragon Who Was Promised" that Rhaegar refers to is not actually a savior of the world figure (like Azor Ahai), but a living symbol of a fulfilled pact that may allow the Targaryens to regain their former power via dragons.

I should also note something interesting: Cregan's maester is noted to have written a book on burial sites of the north and curses: The Passages of the Dead. Although seemingly academic in nature and not containing any actual dark magic, it makes one think about where his interests lie.

[Melifeather]

@e1kabong IMO the Starks and the Daynes were once shields for the realm at their respective ends. The Starks in the north were the black knights with a fiery sword (the original Ice) and guarded the realm from ice magic, while the Daynes in the south are the white knights with an icy sword (Lightbringer) and guard the realm from fire magic.

When the Targaryens came and conquered Westeros they  usurped the Stark's role as shield in the North when Torrhen Stark knelt. The Starks furthered their alliance with the Targaryens when they were promised a marriage alliance when Cregan Stark signed the Pact of Ice and Fire, allying the north with the "blacks" which was a faction of Targaryens that supported Rhaenyra's claim to the throne after the death of King Viserys I.

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, e1kabong said:

I've been kicking around the World book and had a thought. I don't recall it coming up before, but the heresy thread is a giant of a thing, so it's possible I missed it. Can the death and subsequent rebirth of the Targaryen dragons be linked to a blood oath between the Starks and Targaryens? Specifically, during The Dance of the Dragons, Cregan Stark and the "black" side of House Targaryen made the Pact of Ice and Fire, wherein the Targs promised a royal marriage in return for Stark support (the houses of the north typically staying out of southern affairs) during the civil war.

Although the king that rose after the events of the Dance, Aegon III, showered the Starks with rewards, the marriage never did happen. It was directly after the Dance that the dragons withered and died. It's often said that Targs are "the blood of the dragon". If they broke a blood pact with the Starks, were their dragons forfeit? 

Following that line of logic, if we assume that Rhaegar married Lyanna Stark prior to their deaths, did that fulfillment of the pact pave the way for dragons to return only about a decade later? (I couldn't find any info on how long dragon eggs take to incubate/hatch, so timewise, it's speculation). Thus, perhaps the literary translation issues of the "Prince/Princess/Dragon Who Was Promised" that Rhaegar refers to is not actually a savior of the world figure (like Azor Ahai), but a living symbol of a fulfilled pact that may allow the Targaryens to regain their former power via dragons.

I should also note something interesting: Cregan's maester is noted to have written a book on burial sites of the north and curses: The Passages of the Dead. Although seemingly academic in nature and not containing any actual dark magic, it makes one think about where his interests lie.

Its certainly an interesting thought, but I'm wary of reading too much into the World Book. OK that sounds very much like being selective with my sources, but I think its one thing to expand upon something in the main text and to introduce something which isn't.

Nevertheless its interesting that an alliance be sought. To all intents and purposes the Targaryen conquest of Westeros halted at the Neck because it wasn't worth the effort of subjugating the North - just as the Romans never bothered conquering Scotland beyond the Forth, particularly since there doesn't appear to be a history of the Northmen coming south uninvited. Accepting the Starks as client kings is simply more cost effective, while for the Northmen nothing really changed. I'd be wary therefore of reading anything deeper than what we're given.

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Yes, Wolfmaid, I am suggesting Val and Dalla before her as ice priestesses. Both working ice magic to create a few white walkers, which are white shadows and require a life source. Just asMelisandre drew life from Stannis to create shadow babies, somehow Val uses Crasters sons to make white shadows.

Its possible, but I see it as adding an unnecessary layer of complexity. If the Old Powers are awakening, as Qhorin warned and GRRM wrote it is they who need to be dealt with by whatever means, not a few dabblers who may or may not owe them allegiance. 

Looking at things from a different angle, Mel may be meddling but she isn't behind the return of the dragons or any of the other returning magic.

[Matthew.]

Other characters use the phrase "old powers" to imply a broader context than just the CotF

aCoK, Tyrion X:
 

Quote

For a long moment Varys said nothing. The only sound was the stately clack of horseshoes on cobbles. Finally the eunuch cleared his throat. "My lord, do you believe in the old powers?"

"Magic, you mean?" Tyrion said impatiently. "Bloodspells, curses, shapeshifting, those sorts of things?" He snorted. "Do you mean to suggest that Ser Cortnay was magicked to his death?"

AFFC, Prologue:
 

Quote

"Dragons and darker things," said Leo. "The grey sheep have closed their eyes, but the mastiff sees the truth. Old powers waken. Shadows stir. An age of wonder and terror will soon be upon us, an age for gods and heroes." He stretched, smiling his lazy smile. "That's worth a round, I'd say."

There's nothing complicated about assuming that "the Others" are a faction unto themselves, and just one part of the overall picture of magic's return to the world.

[Lord Wraith]

On 3/20/2016 at 7:36 AM, Black Crow said:

Just by way of a further thought on this, Craster related how Mance Rayder had sent for him, summoning him to join the trek and how he had refused because he was right by the Gods. We know of course that the latter assertion is true, so in effect what Craster was saying was that he had no need to flee - and was deliberately distancing himself from whatever silly game Mance is really playing. 

Indeed. Craster shows us that cooperation with the Others or a faction of them at least is possible. Its a huge cost of course.

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Indeed. Craster shows us that cooperation with the Others or a faction of them at least is possible. Its a huge cost of course.

It is and the point is that he as an individual chooses to pay that price and that the other Wildlings distinguish him as bearing that heavy curse. Whether or not they actively regard him as a kind of sin-eater, keeping their sons safe by sacrificing his own is open to question, but it certainly isn't common practice and attributing the creation of white walkers yo "the Wildlings" really doesn't work. 

[Black Crow]

20 hours ago, Matthew. said:

There's nothing complicated about assuming that "the Others" are a faction unto themselves, and just one part of the overall picture of magic's return to the world.

True, but the Wildlings [whom Mel characterises as a doomed people] are running away from it faster than most.

[Black Crow]

Just spinning off this one a little, its interesting that Qhorin justifies taking the inexperienced Jon because the old gods are stirring - the Gods of the First Men,and of the Starks. We've discussed before whether there might be any significance to what appears intended as a subtle distinction, but in the immediate context it does seem to suggest that its Jon's bloodline as a son of Winterfell that's important and that the old allegiance is in the blood and bones. 

[Melifeather]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

It is and the point is that he as an individual chooses to pay that price and that the other Wildlings distinguish him as bearing that heavy curse. Whether or not they actively regard him as a kind of sin-eater, keeping their sons safe by sacrificing his own is open to question, but it certainly isn't common practice and attributing the creation of white walkers yo "the Wildlings" really doesn't work. 

There's a much bigger picture happening in the books than anyone has previously thought of. Through my work on the Wheel of Time project, along with the works of @weaselpie 's Bran the Timelord, @prettypig 's Marvel-ous essays, and a new project by @LynnS about the Hinges of the World, we have been able to make some connections that show Westeros is stuck in a type of Groundhog's Day situation where various characters are reliving lives, and we all think Bran has been manipulating the past in order to effect a different outcome for the future in order to defeat the Others. Whether you recognize that this is happening or not, some outcome needs to be changed, which hasn't been discovered by our little group on HoBaW, but we're making great progress and one of the things we're exploring is whether or  not Bran tried to change Jon's parents in order to position him "just so" and with the right tools at his disposal. Long story short, it may not make any difference who is behind the white walkers, just that there "is" somebody or group, and they need to be defeated.