Another Thread About Jeyne Westerling's Whereabouts

[katderoet3]

BEWARE SPOILERS FOR EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!

 

It's been done 1000 times, here's 1001!

Although I don't think that it would serve much overall narrative purpose for Jeyne to be pregnant considering where I think the story is headed, I think as far as the conspiracies that were a-brewing by the end if AFFC and ADWD, if Jeyne had escaped with the Blackfish, she could be a potent rallying point especially as the river land lords' loyalty is still deemed shaky at best. I don't understand why the Blackfish would hold out for the Starks for as long and as staunchly as he did if there wasn't a reason for it in the long term. (I'm not going to speculate about all that!!)

He was protecting Jeyne Westerling, but couldn't hope to last long. He wasn't a savage like the Bloody Mummers. If Riverrun fell, Jeyne would be worse off than if he yielded. He was a good strategist and commander and would be able to call up support from the North, the Vale and the the river lands to come to his aid. Yes, he was well-stocked fora siege but only for two years. As I said, I'm not necessarily a believer in this theory, but the Blackfish is up to something and it seems possible that the Westerlings might have pulled a switch.

The first description of Jeyne Westerling we are given is:  "She was pretty, undeniably with her chestnut curls and and heart shaped face and that shy smile. Slender, but with good hips, Catelyn noted." (Catelyn 2, ASOS).  

When Jeyne appears three months later after the seige of Riverrun, Jaime describes her as "willowy ... no more than 15 or 16 ...  awkward ... narrow hips ... [small breasts] ... a mop of curly hair ... Pretty enough for a child..."  Jaime 7, AFFC

The theory about Jeyne and her younger sister swapping places is based heavily on these differing descriptions and had thought it was cirrect until I had heard GRRM had claimed her just made a mistake and it slipped through the editing process.  I could easily imagine that with five EPIC and MIND-BOGGLINGLY COMPLEX novels, it was understandable that this would happen. (I believe Jaime's gender-changing horse is a well-known example of these goofs).

Still, it bothered me ...

These books are written by George R.R. Martin, the Doran Martell of writers. Jaime's gender-changing horse is a barely-mentioned "character" in a few chapters when a lot of other plots are building and GRRM has a lot of characters to focus on. (And it could easily be a clue for ... Something lol) 

Jeyne Westerling was Robb's queen. As a plot device, she was one of the main reasons Robb died (intentionally or unintentionally). She's important amd so is her appearance. How many times do we hear about big-boned Crakehalls, hairy Mormonts, dead-eyed Boltons, red-haired Tullys, weasel-faced Freys, fat Manderlys, the Florent ears and the "Stark look"?! (Not to mention the specific physical characteristics of lineages was a big part of Ned figuring out that the Lannisters were bastards!).

Considering this, it really seems like the descriptions we get from Jaime and Catelyn are of two different girls who share a close resemblance. Well, they're both said be slender with curly-brown hair. Jeyne sounds as though she's in a healthy weight range and fits the bill for the Westeros ideal bride; slender but with child-bearing hips.This probably means Jeyne would be more slim or lean at 12 or 13 and there is a good chance her sister would develop in a similar way. (My only experience with this'"fact" is being female and recalling what friends looked like in grade seven compared to grade 10.) As implausible as the theory about a switch and pregnancy probably is, here are several things that stick out for me:

 

Hips Do Lie?

For Catelyn, Jeyne is slender but with good hips, which I interpreted as about an Australian size 10 (6 in the US), meaning she would have been a healthy slim with well proportioned  bum/hips and boobs. (I don't think Catelyn mentions her breasts, but considering child-bearing/birthing has more to do with hips than breasts, I don't think she would have remarked on them unless they were extremely disproportionate.)

Three months later Jaime describes Jeyne as "willowy", which means she's means she's probably tall and thin or even a bit skinny like an esrly teen. I don't think that she could have lost weight from lack of food as we learn the Blackfish had enough food to last him for two years. I'm not denying that Jeyne was under a lot of stress, but I would havevexpected there have been some mention of gauntness or listlessness. Jaime described Lancel that way when he sees him at Darry in AFFC.

 

What's in a Word?

I searched for the word "willowy" (thank you e-books!) and it turns out that it only appeared four other times in the series. 

In ADWD Tyrion 1, when he delivers a monologue to one of Illyrio's slaves and later in Tyrion 10 when he Yezzan zo Qaggoz's hermaphorodite slave Sweets. It doesn't appear at all in AGOT or ACOK and is first used in ASOS Sansa 1 to describe Margaery's cousin Ellinor, who is younger than Margarery's 15. The most interesting use of the descriptive is by Catelyn herself  of Dacey Mormont in Catelyn 7, ASOS. 

 

Pretty?

Catelyn calls her undeniably pretty, which I think means she's probably quite beautiful. To me, the use of the word "undeniable" seems almost grudging. Jeyne is the woman who caused her son to breaks his vows and lose a significant force of his army. She isn't going to be very forgiving with her assessment and she is upset with Robb for breaking his oath.

Jaime's comment that Jeyne seems "pretty enough for a child" is interesting for two reasons. If we only have Carelyn's opinion to rely on about Jeyne's appearance, and G.R.R.M loves an unreliable narrator, I would bet that Jeyene is very attactive. Jaime's own assessment does't square with this (admitedly wild, circumstantial) logic. He certainly notices Hildy, the camp follower he walks in on with Jonos Bracken later, although she's older and naked. My point is that if Jeyne is actually easier on the eyes than Catelyn will admit, Jaime would notice. We don't get any other POV descriptions if I recall. Finally, although her heart-shaped faced is noticed by Catelyn, Jaime only mentions soft doe's eyes. We must remember beauty is a subjective quality.

Secondly,  Westerosi consider that at the age of fifteen or sixteen, a girl is a woman grown. Jeyne's sister, at twelve or thirteen, is definitely a child in Westeros culture. Sansa is referred to as a child by numerous characters in the books and Sansa is still only 13 by book 5. Cersei, Varys, lady Olenna, the Northmen, Tywin, Tyrion, Jaime, the Hound and Littlefinger all use he word to describe Sansa. Most importantly, when Brienne goes on her quest in AFFC looking for Sansa, she always asks for a "maid of three-and-ten." Later when 15-turning16-year-old Alys Karstark turns up at the Wall in Jon 8 ADWD, she says she is "no child, but a woman grown and flowered". To me there seems to be a cultural difference in the way Westerosi society perceives a thirteen-year-old compared to a sixteen-year-old . 

 

Hairstyles of the ....

"Chestnut curls" and "a mop of chestnut  curls" could easily be describing the sme girl. I'd like to point out quickly that a "mop of hair" seems more apt for describing a thirteen year old girl's hairstyle rather than a young woman of a fifteen or sixteen who is technically a widowed queen. Its equally possible the hairstyle of a young, grieving noblewoman.

 

Sybell Westerling

Con-artist and opportunist she certainly is. I think it's helpul to remember the whole  "the lady doth protest too much" idea that is usually associated with Lady Dustin's true intentions. It's quite possible that Tywin told the Freys that the Westerlings were turning traitor. The Westerlings were lannister bannerman ... Is it too much of a stretch to think that maybe Tywin wanted to teach another one of his "sharp lessons" and gave the orders for Rollam Westerling's death? Jaime is informed by Freys that Rollam had died at the Red Wedding. They can identify him as "the knight of the seashells". Though he might have been distinguished for trying to free Grey Wind, the specific details about his manner of dying, with him leaving blood prints as he walked to the wall and jumped into the water after being attacked, are suspiciously well detailed.

I believe the Westerlings knew Rollam was dead before the fall Riverrun, securing their enmity against the Lannisters. The death of Lady Westerling's son through Tywin and his allies treachery wouldhave been a strong motivation for revenge against the Freys. Lady Westerling and would clearly be an important part of the conspiracy if the  Westerling sisters were switched. She's been portrayed as ambitious, ruthless, politically astute and arrogant and would be very useful if she were to use these abilities as part of a cover up. If a switchnhas occurred and we flip some incidents on their heads, the story about hitting her daughter for not giving up the crown serves to demonstrate Sybelle's loyalty and that the girl is the widow Robb Stark (the tears were most likely for her brother although its quite possible Sybelle would have gone Method lol) and for why she doesn't spend much with Jaime. As with fArya, people believe what they want to see and Sybelle's actions convince Jaime that the girl is Jeyne.

I doubt Sybelle Westerling was unaware that Joy was Gerrion Lannister's bastards and what Tywin meant in his letter and might even consider using  her as a hostage in future. Don't forget, we only have her word that she gave Jeyne the moon tea. If Jeyne has gone with the Blackfish and has a son, the North, river lands and probably the Reach will rally around him. What if the Lannisters suffered the same fate as the Reynes and Tarbecks? House Westerling could be installed as the new Wardens of the west. When we last heard of the Westerlings, theybwerevheaded to Casterly Rock with Edmure Tully, where they will be in honorable captivity. I bet Sybelle pictures herself as the Lady of Casterly Rock in the future ...

 

Ser Forley

The morning Edmure and the Westerlings are escorted to Casterly Rock by Ser Forely Prester, a Lannister bannerman, he and Jaime have this conversation:

"Best keep some Archer's on Lady Westerling as well."

Ser Forely seemed taken aback. "Gawen's girl? She's - "

"The Young Wolf's Widow," Jaime finished. "And twice as dangerous as Edmure if she were ever to escape us." 

"As you say, my lord. She will be watched."

He must know the Westerlings well enough to call Lord Westerling by his first name and has probably met his children. He might suspect that this is not Jeyne. To me, his  "as you say" is " you're the boss" and promising she will be watched isn't promising he will shoot bows into her. More importsntly, the startled question "Gawen's girl?" seems ... off. I would assume Jaime should have called her Lady Stark or Westerling considering she was Robb Stark's wife. Imagine if Prester, a Lannister man, recognizes that the girl isn't Jeyne then hears Jaime call her "Lord Westerling's daughter". Since most people have a very low opinion of the Lannisters and Jaime, he might assume that a ruse is being carried and Jaime does knows the girl isn't Jeyne. Or he could be discomfited at the idea of having to order arrows shot at the daughter of an acquaintance/friend and fellow westerman. It's a bit of an odd exchange.

 

Was it a Mistake?

As I said in the beginning, I've read a few times that G.R.R.M. merely fucked up in the descriptions of Jeyne by Jaime and Cat. The only thing I've dug up about this being a mistake is one article http://www.vulture.com/2012/10/influential-fans-the-webmasters-of-westerosorg.html but it's only got Antonsson and Garcia quoted. I won't believe anything that isn't from G.R.R.M's mouth!!!!!! And I sincerely doubt that this difference wasn't intentional, whether to show the reader another case of the unreliable narrator or for some others reason.

 

So I guess we have to wait or TWOW or ADOS to know for sure  Whether the girl really is Jeyne or if its actually her sister, it's still a fun theory and there's a lot of things to ponder over. 

I'm falling asleep now, but I guess I just wanted to say thanks for reading this. It's probably completely wrong, but we don't know yet! If I've misinterpreted events etc or left stuff out, please let me know!     

Thanks!

 

Edit: I will continue this thread soon as I have a lot more to say about where I think Jeyne and the Blackfish are and the Westerling children.

 

* Speaking for girls that age, I can't help but think she behaves more like she's thirteen not sixteen. She barely speaks no and goes as soon as Jaime allows her. On my first read, I thought she seemed embarrassed (and not just by her mother's antics.) I feel like Robb Stark's widow would have had a bit more sass; her mother is pretty ballsy and Jeyne has spent a lot of time around the ultimate Tully rebel, Backfish. Yet it isn't until she leaves for Casterly Rock that her dress is ripped in the fashion for mourning which makes me wonder if she was coached. (Off topic: Jeyne has had Blackfish with her for several months. Given the way Cat discusses her childhood at Rivverrun and her relationship with the Blackfish, he was probably pretty experienced when it came to listening to and helping to "mentor" teenagers and he certainly would have put her relatives in hand). It could be argued that once Jaime meets Lady Westerly and Jeyne, her mother has been able to to terrorize her into submission, but it's only been a short time and if the story about wrestling over the crown is true, then she clearly isn't a hysterical mess - her mother specifically complains about her fighting back.

 

 

 

 

 

[RainGhost]

You've clearly put a lot of thought into this and have used quotations to back your theory. However, I don't think you're right. Aside from GRRM's admitted mistake, Catelyn's and Jaime's differing descriptions of Jeyne can be explained in other ways.

Catelyn is assessing Jeyne's suitability as a wife for her 16 year-old son. Jaime calls her a child but she's the same age as Robb, so this isn't an issue for Catelyn. Catelyn calls her pretty but, really, Jeyne's appearance is the least of her concerns. When assessing Jeyne's hips, she's looking to see if Jeyne will be able to carry and give birth to a child.

Jaime is assessing Jeyne based on whether she is "a girl to lose a kingdom for" (initially judging her solely on appearance). Essentially, he's comparing her to Cersei (who he lost a kingdom for). As a man twice Jeyne's age, it's natural that Jaime should see her as a child. He dismisses Jeyne as merely pretty because she's not as beautiful as Cersei. When assessing Jeyne's hips, Jaime is looking at her womanly figure. Again, Jeyne falls short compared to Cersei but this doesn't mean that she doesn't still have child-bearing hips.

Finally, Catelyn and Jaime see Jeyne at very different times. Catelyn sees a new bride, full of hope and in love with her husband. Jaime sees a widow who is grieving for her husband and worried for her brother (Raynald by the way). She could very easily have lost weight through grief, guilt and stress. She would also be feeling lost - she has lost a whole future and no longer has a place in the world. Is it really a surprise that we get two different descriptions? Besides, swtiching Jeyne with her sister would not have worked - I think Jaime would have realised he was a girl short.

Not to mention that if GRRM wants Jeyne free he can always have her escape in TWOW when the Blackfish comes to rescue her without needing a switch. I think he wanted us to see the real Jeyne so that we could see her reaction to Robb's death and see that she never betrayed him. Also, it allows Jaime to compare her to Cersei (and eventually see where Cersei falls short).