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The Fate of Shireen TWoW


Rubicante

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I believe that Stannis will himself be the one that goes into the fire.

Benioff and Weiskopf hinted that George had told them about "this" in reference to the Stannis burning Shireen scene. I can see the first part of that scene being set up, Melisandre persuading Stannis to tie Shireen to the pyre, and either him or her being ready with torch in hand...

BUT then a "No, I will not do this thing" to follow.

Certainly it will not, CANNOT happen as part of the battle against the Boltons - the Boltons are merely human enemies, Stannis would sacrifice his own daughter to beat them. In any case Shireen is not even with Stannis now, and he cannot ever meet her again unless he drives the Boltons from Winterfell: he cannot retreat back to the Wall the way he came, through the woods by way of the Mountain Clans and Deepwood Motte, and he cannot even reach the kingsroad (which is itself probably blocked, though maybe less badly than the snowbound woods) without capturing Winterfell, nor can Melisandre and Shireen come south.

But I do genuinely believe that GRRM intends for Shireen and Stannis to meet again - which means that it MUST be Stannis who beats the Boltons. Even if Ramsay (and possibly Roose) escape and head for the Dreadfort, or maybe Barrowton, to come back with reinforcements.

in any case, the result is that if Stannis is ever to meet Shireen again, the Boltons will have been driven from Winterfell by Stannis. They may retake it if Stannis dashes north to the Wall after hearing of Jon's murder and learning that there is effectively nobody guarding the Wall any more: or the Wall itself may fall, or Stannis's family be driven from it by either watch or wildlings, and come as refugees in either case to Winterfell, and meet him there. But once in Winterfell, the battle will be against the Others and the walking dead - a more fitting occasion for the question of whether or not to sacrifice one's own daughter.

And also a possible occasion in which Stannis might decide that the one to be sacrificed is not his daughter, but himself: according to the Northern custom, whereby it is the old who die (usually by "going out hunting" and not returning - or indeed, taking the black) in order that the young may survive to keep the family, the clan and the community going.

(The same sacrifice that, I believe, is currently being made by Hother Umber's faction of greybeards in House Umber - leaving their homeland, where they did not have enough men to gather in the last harvest and as a consequence there will be famine at Last Hearth, to allow the younger generation of House Umber to survive under a few old greybeards led by Mors, while Hothers men go away to die - and, in the process, turn it to their advantage by eating the Boltons' stores, contributing towards slowly starving the hated Boltons in Winterfell, weakening them so that they will be more easily driven out later.)

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I thought we couldn't talk about show spoilers in here?  In my opinion the most likely outcome is Melisandre burns Shireen after Stannis is defeated by the Boltons.  I hope that isn't considered a spoiler as it's purely book focused - I believe the pink letter is true.

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22 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

/\Yes/\ to above.

I agree with all of this. You must be in my head. Please do some straightening up while you are browsing.

A few housekeeping things that I wonder about is there will probably be chaos at CB in the moments after the mutiny stabbings. I am sure the wildlings, with Tormund at the lead?, will start lassoing up some mutineers to hang their entrails from a tree, so where does Jon's body go, and with whom??? I have my own ideas, but I like asking around for other perspectives.

Honestly, it never made sense to me that so many posters think Stannis will burn Shireen when he is a month (?) away in the middle of a blizzard deep enough to freeze a man's dragonstones, and Stannis wants Shireen on the throne in his stead in the event he doesn't make it. Stannis was never the religious fanatic, Selyse is, and Mel seems to be as well. And it is clear, as you pointed out, that Stannis really seems to be rethinking the Rahloo thingy.

So the Lace Serpant was claimed as being responsible for bringin' down the house (sadly, not in the party town way), and if Mel burns Shireen, then you can see the parallel to ending Stannis' line. George said Mel acts in her own interest first, sooo....

First, let me say that I love you just way you are (can't say that without singing it, can ya?). No tidying needed. 

Next, "dragonstones" :roflmao:

And, you need to change "bringin' down the house" to "burning down the house" (hold tight... wait until the party's over... hold tight...)

Now, as to the clusterf@$! at Castle Black, 

The allusions to Shakespear's Julius Caesar are too strong to ignore...

Just as Wick Whittlestick barely grazed Jon's neck with the first dagger, Casca was the first to cut Ceaser with a glancing cut to the neck. Just as Caesar caught Casca by the arm, Jon caught Wick's wrist. Just as Wick retreated and put his arms up, Casca was frighted and shouted for help. (That Jon understood this to mean that Wick was denying involvement was very curious. I'm not sure what to make of that other than he might have been mistaken.) That Bowen Marsh wept and claimed to be doing it for the Watch clearly alluded to Brutus. And Brutus expected his fellow Romans to be glad, going so far as to persuade his fellow conspirators to ignore Marcus Antonius.

Given the strong allusion to the assassination of Julius Caesar I'm assuming that Bowen will expect his brothers to be glad. I don't think he has a plan. And much like Brutus was forced to flee Rome in short order I think Bowen is in a very, very tight spot, because Tormund is set to play the role of Marcus Antonius. I would expect him to whip the wildings into a frenzy against Marsh and the other conspirators. 

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5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

First, let me say that I love you just way you are (can't say that without singing it, can ya?). No tidying needed. 

Next, "dragonstones" :roflmao:

And, you need to change "bringin' down the house" to "burning down the house" (hold tight... wait until the party's over... hold tight...)

Now, as to the clusterf@$! at Castle Black, 

The allusions to Shakespear's Julius Caesar are too strong to ignore...

Just as Wick Whittlestick barely grazed Jon's neck with the first dagger, Casca was the first to cut Ceaser with a glancing cut to the neck. Just as Caesar caught Casca by the arm, Jon caught Wick's wrist. Just as Wick retreated and put his arms up, Casca was frighted and shouted for help. (That Jon understood this to mean that Wick was denying involvement was very curious. I'm not sure what to make of that other than he might have been mistaken.) That Bowen Marsh wept and claimed to be doing it for the Watch clearly alluded to Brutus. And Brutus expected his fellow Romans to be glad, going so far as to persuade his fellow conspirators to ignore Marcus Antonius.

Given the strong allusion to the assassination of Julius Caesar I'm assuming that Bowen will expect his brothers to be glad. I don't think he has a plan. And much like Brutus was forced to flee Rome in short order I think Bowen is in a very, very tight spot, because Tormund is set to play the role of Marcus Antonius. I would expect him to whip the wildings into a frenzy against Marsh and the other conspirators. 

Yeah, there was some conspiring against Jon between Marsh, Yarwyck, Slynt and Thorne off and on throughout the last three books. However, I think Jon was stuck :leer: with the dopiest of the four, Marsh, and he went ahead with some half baked plan with out leaving the getaway car running. I think the mutineers are cornered because, as you mentioned, Marsh expects everyone there to be happy, but that won't be the case by far. Actually, at least by 5 to 1 as that is what Jon identifies as what could be "his side" in that last chapter.

I love the Ceaser reference. Damn, that plays out almost a one to one parallel.

I think one possible scenario is after the stabbing and dustup, the mutineers are hanged, the PL is plucked from the mud, the details are read to Mel and Selyse (Jon was on his way to tell Selyse), and Selyse who still thinks Stannis is the Mannis may want to  sacrifice Shireen to save her husband/savior. Selyse doesn't even like to touch her daughter, so it ain't no skin off her fanatical back. In the meantime. Mel is like, "sure, let's throw some Shireen coals on the BBQ," because Mel seems to be rethinking who AAR is and may want to rezz Jon back instead. (or try to). I do happen to think there are some other important people there who actually will help Jon in more important ways, but that is another thread. Oh, and Stannis will be super pissed. No more fancy Nightfort for Selyse level pissed.

Or not :dunno:

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  • 4 months later...

She's toast, and Stannis will do it for dragons that won't materialise. The whole point is to teach Jon not to trust in prophesy/magic for when the time comes that he faces the same situation. And it has to be Stannis because he's the role model figure, the king for KITN Jon to follow, and he'll have to decide to what degree he'll follow. And it's about responsibility as king and responsibility as a father, that choice between the two. It doesn't work if it's Mel because protecting the child and protecting the realm are neither her sacred responsibility.

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6 hours ago, Sergey Dukman said:

There is no any reason to trust showrunners. They just lead us away from plot of the book, that is all.

Why should they spoil the books?

I believe that Stannis will take the North and at some point will confront Dayenris.

 

Just wait until they spoil the whole ending and nobody knows whats from the books and whats not. 

 

I've said it many times on this forum that George let slip he hadn't even wrote Shireen's death yet so it is way into TWOW. Its completely up in the air what happens but all we know for certain is that he's got big things planned for Stannis. 

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2 hours ago, aFeastForDragons said:

 

Just wait until they spoil the whole ending and nobody knows whats from the books and whats not. 

 

I've said it many times on this forum that George let slip he hadn't even wrote Shireen's death yet so it is way into TWOW. Its completely up in the air what happens but all we know for certain is that he's got big things planned for Stannis. 

At least your last sentence is a very good news to me. Stannis is my favourite character in the books.

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I do think Shireen will be sacrificed , but not by Stannis itself. My guess is that Mel belives Stannis is dead so she sacrifices Shireen , but it leads to Jon being ressurected . And then Mel will switch her loyalty to Jon . 

I think Stannis will suceed against the Boltons , but he will die in the progress.  

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  • 1 month later...
Quote

"There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man" - Varys

It's pretty clear at this point that Stannis is going to sacrifice Shireen to the flames. Mel truly ( but incorrectly) believes Stannis is the key to destroying The Others and has convinced Stannis that he is Azor Ahai reborn. The text has made reference to the myth of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa over and over again. The myth leaves little wiggle room, Azor Ahai had to destroy the one thing in the world he loved to forge Lightbringer. Who is the only person in the world Stannis loves? Shireen. Now instead of Lightbringer I think Mel is attempting to raise a stone dragon after the wall falls and The Others and their wight army start streaming into the north.

On top of that the question has to be asked, would Stannis have burned Edric Storm to death for the greater good? Davos certainly thought so which is why he risked his position and his life to get Edric off of Dragonstone without Stannis's leave. Stannis's reasoning for killing Edric was what is the life of one child when compared to the lives of every last child of Westeros? Davos disagrees of course but put that aside for a moment and consider this: If Stannis thinks that sacrificing someone else's child for the greater good what would he think about himself if he shirked his duty because the child in question was his own? See the quote above for what I think the answer is.

 

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