Love or Hate Jon

[The Great Udder]

New to the forum.

Always been curious about the love/hate that Jon's character seem to inspire.

 

Can you guys cite specific scenes that made you hate/dislike Jon's character? To be fair, JS fans can defend provided it is in context of that scene or situation.

If you will cite his decision making/strategy/plans as LC, can you also state an apt alternative to solve his dilemma at that time? i.e. if I was Jon, I would have done this instead......

[Aedam Targaryen]

I don't really love or hate him. I'd say that I like him, but I don't like like him. Haha!

As far as his decisions as LC, I always understood his decisions, agreed with most of them, but I was always bothered by his poor communication skills. I know that explaining some of his choices to Marsh was like talking to a brick wall, but I think he could have tried a little more.

I think he knew he was making the right decisions and figured he'd just set the record straight later... I don't think it ever crossed his mind that being killed by his own men was an actual possibility. 

[dread wolf]

2 hours ago, The Great Udder said:

New to the forum.

Always been curious about the love/hate that Jon's character seem to inspire.

 

Can you guys cite specific scenes that made you hate/dislike Jon's character? To be fair, JS fans can defend provided it is in context of that scene or situation.

If you will cite his decision making/strategy/plans as LC, can you also state an apt alternative to solve his dilemma at that time? i.e. if I was Jon, I would have done this instead......

welcome to the forum greatudder,hope u have a great time here.

i know im not the right person for this thread (im not a book reader).nevertheless i just want to post it and have a discussion.You can correct me if im wrong.

i personally like jon snow due to actions like

his execution of slynt - jon is taking responsibility as a leader and growing up and i was glad to see that bastard slynt die.

his role in the battle of castle black

his dealing with the aly karstark situation- this shows that jon is more than a leader with a sword. 

some of his flaws are

his bitterness and resentment : people who dislike jon snow usually cite this reason that he was cold and bitter during the initial books.I dndt read the books so i can't give u my opinion there.

his dealing with pink letter situation- jon should've known that there will be resentment against him due the fragile NW-wildling alliance.

he should have slipped quietly to gift saying that he is going there for some inspection. he could have told his plans to grenn,pyp and edd gave one of them temporary command. appeal for the wildlings for help against the boltons. it is foolish to break his vows yes and the night's watch will catch on this sooner or later but he was doing this for arya. it is understandable. 

he is not an interesting character like tyrion,ned,theon but he is the hero of this series (he will pivotal in the end battle against the others)

he is also a "hero with a thousand faces archetype" i've read an article about jon pertaining to this archetype on the internet it was an interesting read. here's the link jon snow

[The Great Udder]

Thanks, dread wolf.

Been lurking here since reading “blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice” from CoK.

Agree on this one.

4 hours ago, dread wolf said:

his role in the battle of castle black

Agree on this one.

I found this battle exhausting for him as he wasn't fully healed from his arrow wound at that time. Despite it though, he showed stamina (or maybe it's just the adrenaline of war) and was able to showcase all the warfare tactics he learned from The Ned or Maester Luwin.

4 hours ago, dread wolf said:

some of his flaws are

his bitterness and resentment : people who dislike jon snow usually cite this reason that he was cold and bitter during the initial books.I dndt read the books so i can't give u my opinion there.

I don't necessarily think of it as a flaw. It was more like a passing emotion or mood at that time. I liken it to a time when you don't know which college course to take yet while everyone already has sent in their applications.

4 hours ago, dread wolf said:

his dealing with pink letter situation- jon should've known that there will be resentment against him due the fragile NW-wildling alliance.

he should have slipped quietly to gift saying that he is going there for some inspection. he could have told his plans to grenn,pyp and edd gave one of them temporary command. appeal for the wildlings for help against the boltons. it is foolish to break his vows yes and the night's watch will catch on this sooner or later but he was doing this for arya. it is understandable.

This part really confuses me because there's always been logic to his actions. Maybe the missing 2 hours of dialogue between him and Tormund could explain this.

In any case, he was aware (and I agree) that he was oath breaking when he announced that he would go after Ramsay. There are a lot of theories on the reason for his stabbing but if it was simple minded me this would likely be my motivation.

As for Grenn and Co, they were not there during this time. Gren and Pyp were dispatched to Eastwatch upon the request of Ser Denys/Cotter Pyke. Edd was dispatched to Long Barrow with Iron Emmett to command the spearwives garrisoned there. Sam wasn't there as well.

It seems like he was setting himself up for the ides of march scenario.

[dread wolf]

5 hours ago, The Great Udder said:

Thanks, dread wolf.

Been lurking here since reading “blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice” from CoK.

Agree on this one.

Agree on this one.

I found this battle exhausting for him as he wasn't fully healed from his arrow wound at that time. Despite it though, he showed stamina (or maybe it's just the adrenaline of war) and was able to showcase all the warfare tactics he learned from The Ned or Maester Luwin.

I don't necessarily think of it as a flaw. It was more like a passing emotion or mood at that time. I liken it to a time when you don't know which college course to take yet while everyone already has sent in their applications.

This part really confuses me because there's always been logic to his actions. Maybe the missing 2 hours of dialogue between him and Tormund could explain this.

In any case, he was aware (and I agree) that he was oath breaking when he announced that he would go after Ramsay. There are a lot of theories on the reason for his stabbing but if it was simple minded me this would likely be my motivation.

As for Grenn and Co, they were not there during this time. Gren and Pyp were dispatched to Eastwatch upon the request of Ser Denys/Cotter Pyke. Edd was dispatched to Long Barrow with Iron Emmett to command the spearwives garrisoned there. Sam wasn't there as well.

It seems like he was setting himself up for the ides of march scenario.

thanx for the information about grenn and pyp,guess i should really read the books but i was never a fan of the POV narration style.

[Tzalaran]

i've always liked Jon, he's by far the character i identified with most from the get go:  outcast, dark and moody, introspective (introverted), competent, driven, able to face hard truths.

Bran seemed to look up to Jon as much if not more than Robb, plus he's the first to call Theon an "ass", and that settled it for me.

[evita mgfs]

Welcome to all those newbies posting here.

I love Jon Snow for his selfless acts early in the series:  sacrificing not having a direwolf pup so that his brothers and sisters all have one.

His love for Bran which compels him to confront Catelyn who guards his sickbed.  He kisses Bran on the lips in farewell.

His gifting his little sister Arya Needle.

His friendship with Samwell.

His love and affection for Ghost.

Oh, there are lots more things I love about him.  I'll add more later.

[Bran the Shipper]

I'm not the biggest fan of Jon, or to be more accurate he is my least favorite of the primary PoV Characters who've made it to ADwD.

I think my primary reason for disliking him is that he is arrogant.  We see it first when he complains to Tyrion about the brothers of the night's watch and while he tones down somewhat afterwards it never really leaves him.  It really becomes apparent when he is made Lord Commander, and decides that makes him a tyrant.  He thus does whatever he wants completely ignoring the feelings of his subordinates because he doesn't like them.  He thinks he knows best even though he is only a sixteen year old and has lived a relatively sheltered life. 

His belief that he cannot have friends while being the leader is ridiculous and runs completely counter to how Ned ran things.  He explains it that he would have trouble executing his friends should they desert, but if he was actually a decent commander and their friend, they would have less reason to desert.  He purposefully gets rid of all of his friends based on this, leaving him surrounded with people he doesn't like and who don't like him.  Apparently he completely misinterpreted Aemon's "kill the boy" speech, to mean become a completely unlikeable cold-hearted tyrant, though he is too kind for that to really work.  And not realizing that Aemon seemed to be primarily warning him that as leader he will need to be able to do things he won't like because it is his duty.

I find it ironic how Jon uses Ygritte's "You know nothing" comment against his fellow Night's Watch brothers, even though he really doesn't know much more about the wildlings than they do, he just thinks he does. 

I did not like the way he treated Melisandre.  Here is a woman who is trying to help him and give him advice and warnings.  His response is to criticize her and dismiss everything she says, even though there is enough evidence to suggest that he should listen to her.  If he had done what she had told him and gone to her as soon as he saw the sign in the sky, maybe he wouldn't have found himself in an impromptu rendition of Julius Caesar with him cast in the titular role.

Ultimately I view him to be a similar character to Ned and Robb, in that he tries to lead but due to his personal flaws ends up failing miserably and thus think that if the story is to be consistent and if there are still consequences for mistakes Jon should remain dead.  For that is what happened to Ned and Robb and he isn't much different from them.

[norwaywolf123]

The thing i dislike the most is

- That he may become a king of westeros, It is just not his story and i hate the thought of it

- That R+L=J, becouse i believe it

 

[Richard Writhen]

I think Jon's a great character.

[Danelle]

I don't love Jon.

 

I adore him.

 

As for lines, well, I don't know, there are aso many. I think that the following was a defining moment for me

 

Quote

"Bran," he said, "I'm sorry I didn't come before. I was afraid." He could feel the tears rolling down his cheeks. Jon no longer cared. "Don't die, Bran. Please. We're all waiting for you to wake up. Me and Robb and the girls, everyone …"

I will not analyse it. It is the most Jon moment in the books. There is nothing more to say.

 

Regarding to his time as LC, yes, he was controversial but the fact remains that he became LC at the most crucial moment in westerosi history. No matter what choice he would make, someone would be displeased.

He tried to maintain a balance between the NW, Stannis, Selyse, the wildlings but still he did not earn everyone's respect.

I don't think that achieving that should be the purpose of any leader. In order to rule and maintain power, someone will be discontent. The alternative, trying to please everyone or as many people as possible, can be disastrous. Think of Tytos Lannister:

Quote

Lord Tytos Lannister had many virtues. Slow to anger and quick to forgive, he saw good in every man, great or small, and was too trusting by half. He was dubbed the Laughing Lion for his jovial manner, and for a time the west laughed with him...but soon enough, more were laughing at him instead.

 Jon had chosen to lead the NW and he had to prove to his brothers that they chose wisely.

At times he did seem to lose his patience, think of his exchange with Axell Florent:

Quote

"Easily ." Florent's smile was so false that it looked painful. "Where is she, Lord Snow? Have you moved her to one of your other castles? Greyguard or the Shadow Tower? Whore's Burrow, with t'other wenches?" He leaned close. "Some say you have her tucked away for your own pleasure. It makes no matter to me, so long as she is not with child. I'll get my own sons on her. If you've broken her to saddle, well … we are both men of the world, are we not?"

Jon had heard enough. "Ser Axell, if you are truly the Queen's Hand, I pity Her Grace."

Florent's face grew flushed with anger. "So it is true. You mean to keep her for yourself, I see it now. The bastard wants his father's seat."

Axell was talking about Val and he directly mocked the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch of having an affair with Val. As a southerner, Axell believed that Val was an actual princess, as politically important as Myrcella and Arianne. He directly claims that she should become his bride and insults Jon when he mocks him. He goes as far as to suggest that Jon is plotting to claim Winterfell for himself and continue his affair with Val.

I suppose that Jon could have restrained himself, I suppose that he could have smiled politely and walk away or stay and pretending to listen to Axell's ambitious and insulting plans.

 

But that would be a sign of weakness, Florent was directly offending Jon, forgetting that he was his guest and undermining his authority.

If anything, Jon responded to Florent's insults politely, considering what he said to him. 

 

 

[khal drogon]

No. he is the blandest character in the whole ASOIAF.

[The Great Udder]

Been out and about lately so wasn't able to check your replies.

Thanks for your enlightening thoughts guys.

@khal drogon and @W. Wrycthen - would be really grateful if you can elaborate on your statements.