The meaning of Jon's "frozen fingers" Arya quote.

[Joan Jett]

On March 31, 2016 at 2:07 PM, evita mgfs said:

 

Her “frozen fingers” with Needle also suggests that she will battle an Other.  Needle’s forging at Winterfell endows it with the magic to accomplish this feat, a fact Martin reveals in SSM.

 

Link!

[Lost Melnibonean]

I think the easiest way round is to have Jeyne Poole (poor Jeyne) burried in snow. 

[The Dames do Moan]

I guess I'm in the minority but I do think she'll end up dying at the end (after doing some cool stuff) w/ needle. 

Once she dies though, she'll end up having her second life in Nymeria, thus finding the "pack" she's been searching for and slowly building with Nym.

[Rusty Winchester]

On ‎3‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 7:55 AM, Seams said:

Arya "joining" the House of Black and White shares many parallels with Jon joining the Night's Watch. I think this quote applies equally to both Jon and Arya.

 

Probably a long shot, considering that personally I suspect the watch won't be around much longer.  But if Arya did end up meeting back up with Jon, say back at the wall, she could very easily end up joining the watch herself.  She's already had experience living as a boy, and that was before she started to learn magic face changing powers.  Plus we had the wildling girl, who pretended to be a boy to try and join up. Foreshadowing perhaps?

[evita mgfs]

On 4/15/2016 at 6:37 PM, Joan Jett said:

Link!

SSM, 93

I do not have time to read through to find the email/discussion

[Meera of Tarth]

On 30/3/2016 at 9:27 AM, chrisdaw said:

I want to discuss this quote that is often used to suggest Arya will die. I don't agree with that interpretation. The quote is foreshadowing Arya's arc, it is the central conflict that she will face. Thankfully it's a pretty simple conflict, No-one or Arya Stark.

Stop hiding, go back to your room.

Stop being no-one, stop being the faceless man, go back to your room, your place, your home, the (only) place that belongs to Arya Stark. The longer you hide, the harder it will be, the harder you will become, the colder you will become. Stop running from the duties, expectations and obligations of Arya Stark, stop being hidden, stop being alone.

or don't, and you'll be needling all through winter and they'll find you alone and dead.

Stay in hiding and you'll keep on needling, murdering. Stay no-one and you can keep doing as you please, free of restraint, free of obligation and duty, you can keep feeding the vengeance, but that way leads to loneliness, that way leads to death.

 

Eventually she's going to have to make this choice that Jon lays out for her. In the foreshadowing, she goes back to her room, to Arya Stark's room.

I like the warning interpretation

[evita mgfs]

On 4/15/2016 at 6:37 PM, Joan Jett said:

Link!

 

Hello again.  I needed to address the post I made about the information I read on the forum a few months ago.  Since I carefully document sources, I had the SSM 93 correct, but I had negligently not verified the source.

Since I too questioned the information, I sought out a forum member schooled in the SSM feed.  kissdbyfire clarified for me that the fallacy around Arya’s Needle is just that:  fallacy.

Apparently, the information is from Martin’s precise written to pitch his I&F series to his editor in 1991.  KBF asserts that some scholars on the forum use this summary plot-outline as Martin canon, and it is not.

Martin has never attributed special magic powers to Needle in the published texts thus far, and the published texts are the tried and true source for analysis.

I wish to apologize for sharing misinformation about something as important as Arya’s Needle.  I want to be a responsible and credible contributor, so I felt I needed to address this matter as soon as possible.

[Joan Jett]

45 minutes ago, evita mgfs said:

 

 

Hello again.  I needed to address the post I made about the information I read on the forum a few months ago.  Since I carefully document sources, I had the SSM 93 correct, but I had negligently not verified the source.

 

Since I too questioned the information, I sought out a forum member schooled in the SSM feed.  kissdbyfire clarified for me that the fallacy around Arya’s Needle is just that:  fallacy.

 

Apparently, the information is from Martin’s precise written to pitch his I&F series to his editor in 1991.  KBF asserts that some scholars on the forum use this summary plot-outline as Martin canon, and it is not.

 

Martin has never attributed special magic powers to Needle in the published texts thus far, and the published texts are the tried and true source for analysis.

 

I wish to apologize for sharing misinformation about something as important as Arya’s Needle.  I want to be a responsible and credible contributor, so I felt I needed to address this matter as soon as possible.

 

Yeah I was wondering about that lol. I've been though all of the 90s SSMs and I never found one about Needle. 

Thanks for clarifying!

[evita mgfs]

Just now, Joan Jett said:

Yeah I was wondering about that lol. I've been though all of the 90s SSMs and I never found one about Needle. 

Thanks for clarifying!

I am so sorry I did not check myself before I contributed the post.  I have learned a valuable lesson about taking for granted that others know what they are writing about without supplying a link or better attribution.

KBF says Martin's precise even says that Arya and Jon will hook up, and forum posters will cite SSM as evidence to this.  I am working my way through SSM so that I have a better understanding of the texts as a whole.

Once again, I apologize.

[Joan Jett]

34 minutes ago, evita mgfs said:

I am so sorry I did not check myself before I contributed the post.  I have learned a valuable lesson about taking for granted that others know what they are writing about without supplying a link or better attribution.

KBF says Martin's precise even says that Arya and Jon will hook up, and forum posters will cite SSM as evidence to this.  I am working my way through SSM so that I have a better understanding of the texts as a whole.

Once again, I apologize.

The outline you mean? Yeah I've read it. I actually think there's plenty of evidence in the published books to support Jon and Arya hooking up, lol. 

[Lady Arya's Song]

This thread is awesome.  Such wonderful insights and essays from so many outstanding people .  All the word play on sewing, needle, just excellent.

I have little to add but I have wondered if Needle along with being Arya's literal sword is also a metaphor for Jon himself. ?

I like the play on words with Arya and doing needlework at Acorn hall.  However, it is when Arya is throwing away all her literal items at the HOBAW.  In the end Needle is Jon Snow's smile! She has tears and she can't let Needle go.  Can't let Jon go in her heart.

"Needle was Jon Snow's smile."  Is it possible that Jon's warning to her is prophecy that in the end she needs to come home and stop being no one. 

I love Jon Snow as a character and I so hope George gives us at least this much of a happy ending.

  I love the idea that Arya would clutch ( the dragon who has teeth sharp as a needle) and Jon Snow's smile being Needle.  Sorry but I am so mushy when it comes to the love these two characters have for each other.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

56 minutes ago, evita mgfs said:

I am so sorry I did not check myself before I contributed the post.  I have learned a valuable lesson about taking for granted that others know what they are writing about without supplying a link or better attribution.

KBF says Martin's precise even says that Arya and Jon will hook up, and forum posters will cite SSM as evidence to this.  I am working my way through SSM so that I have a better understanding of the texts as a whole.

Once again, I apologize.

It is OK to cite to these sources, as long you note that such ideas were The George's initial intent, and why you think the initial intent might still hold. 

[evita mgfs]

29 minutes ago, Joan Jett said:

The outline you mean? Yeah I've read it. I actually think there's plenty of evidence in the published books to support Jon and Arya hooking up, lol. 

I am batting zero today:  I misspelled precis [precise], which is a concise summary.

10 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

It is OK to cite to these sources, as long you note that such ideas were The George's initial intent, and why you think the initial intent might still hold. 

Thanks for the heads up!  I still feel bad for not clarifying better.

[The Oily Black Stone]

On 3/30/2016 at 3:27 AM, chrisdaw said:

 

 

[The Oily Black Stone]

Oopsie... sorry, long-time lurker/first time commenter here. Please excuse the blank post above, I cant figure out how to delete it!

"You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers." 

My reading of this obviously foreshadowy  quote is quite simple, I think. I agree with the OP that the hiding refers to Arya's time with the Faceless Men. They quite literally encourage her to forget herself and become no one. The more she is doing the sort of acts that would require penance.

As for "sewing all through winter," I think this simply refers to her killing throughout the upcoming winter since her weapon is a needle. She "needs" to kill in order to survive, whether on a FM mission or on behalf of her family. The frozen fingers does call to mind the wights, and if she ends up back in the north I have no doubt she will have some hands-on experience  dealing with them. But yeah, foreshadowing her actual death would be uncharacteristically  literal. Arya is one of the few characters that we can really expect to see through to the end of the series.

I think the sewing/sowing/sewer synonyms are a little forced, though interesting.  I think there's plenty to work with in regards to the "needle" symbology as it is. Arya as a FM is hard to identify as a needle in a haystack. When she judges who she should kill she becomes the needle in a moral compass. Needling her way through society. The needle "cuts" through the fabric  of society. Etc?

 

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Like everyone here is how I see the quote: You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You’ll be killing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.”

The longer Arya hides, the worse it will be for her. She will be killing all through winter and end up found dead with the needle locked in her frozen fingers.

Then there is Ned's quote: "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."

 

Both quotes in combination foreshadow either Arya's death, or a likely fate she manages to just escape by choosing to stop being a loner who hides but join the pack.

If she doesn't manage to escape her lone assassin role, she will end up dead. 

[Ser Gareth]

On ‎30‎/‎03‎/‎2016 at 8:27 AM, chrisdaw said:

I want to discuss this quote that is often used to suggest Arya will die. I don't agree with that interpretation. The quote is foreshadowing Arya's arc, it is the central conflict that she will face. Thankfully it's a pretty simple conflict, No-one or Arya Stark.

Stop hiding, go back to your room.

Stop being no-one, stop being the faceless man, go back to your room, your place, your home, the (only) place that belongs to Arya Stark. The longer you hide, the harder it will be, the harder you will become, the colder you will become. Stop running from the duties, expectations and obligations of Arya Stark, stop being hidden, stop being alone.

or don't, and you'll be needling all through winter and they'll find you alone and dead.

Stay in hiding and you'll keep on needling, murdering. Stay no-one and you can keep doing as you please, free of restraint, free of obligation and duty, you can keep feeding the vengeance, but that way leads to loneliness, that way leads to death.

 

Eventually she's going to have to make this choice that Jon lays out for her. In the foreshadowing, she goes back to her room, to Arya Stark's room.

I personally think it isn't an indication that she'll die but that even after everything is over she'll still have a vengeful and hateful heart and she'll still be killing.

[The Oily Black Stone]

Once she joined the FM she has already "killed" her identity.

It also nicely mirrors Jon, the other Stark outsider, joining up with another brotherhood and reminding himself to "kill the boy"

Or by extension, Theon's arc where he becomes "Reek"

Wait, as im writing this, really all the starks assume new identities... Or change skins, as you will

Ned -> Hand

Catelyn -> LSH

Robb -> KITN

Sansa -> Alayne stone/Bolton in the show

Bran -> last greenseer

Rickon -> ?

Perhaps the ease with which they "become" other people hint toward their warging abilities? With the exception of Tully catelyn of course. Men marry fishes.

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

10 hours ago, Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren said:

Like everyone here is how I see the quote: You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You’ll be killing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.”

The longer Arya hides, the worse it will be for her. She will be killing all through winter and end up found dead with the needle locked in her frozen fingers.

Then there is Ned's quote: "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."

 

Both quotes in combination foreshadow either Arya's death, or a likely fate she manages to just escape by choosing to stop being a loner who hides but join the pack.

If she doesn't manage to escape her lone assassin role, she will end up dead. 

I like it. I like it a lot.