In Defense of Freys

[The Wolves]

11 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

The thing is, though, that there was no way to make it up to the Freys, and Robb Stark knew that, even as he betrayed them. It doesn't matter how hard he tried to make it up to them, what Walder Frey wanted was gone.

Imagine this: you buy, say, an apple. The best apple in the world. You've paid for it, and will continue paying for it. But, alas, before it's been given to you, the seller gives it to another. Then, after this, offers you other apples. Lesser apples. You like apples, it's true, but these apples simply do not compare. Not only are these apples sub-par, in comparison, but the seller also demands the same price. He cannot reimburse you for what you've already paid, either, as that money has already been spent. What do you do? Do you just sit there, and continue paying the exorbitant price? No. You don't. You stop giving that man your business, and go elsewhere.

That was Walder Frey's punishment to Robb Stark. Not the wedding, that was just how he dealt with him. The punishment was going over to the Lannisters. A fair punishment, too.

And truly, there isn't much of a difference between the actions of Robb Stark and Walder Frey. Both of them took advantage of the fact that their opponents weren't ready for a battle. When Robb Stark does it, it's praised as ingenuity. When Walder Frey does it, it's an evil act. It is exactly the same.

In some way, Robb Stark had give the Lannister army some sense of protection. They had no idea that he was there. They certainly didn't believe that he would attack and kill them, as they didn't know he was there at all. Sneak attacks are sneak attacks, whether they're at a wedding or not. Walder Frey had joined up with the Lannisters; therefore they were at war.

Catelyn Stark sealed her fate when she killed Aegon Frey.

Than again Walder should have spit in the face of Robb Stark closed Robb and his men off from going North and attacked them openly, he would have been more than justified in doing that. But at last he took the bitch way out. 

And stop trying to compare Robb and Walder's actions they can't be compared. 

This is more than just sneak attacks. Everybody knew Robb was fighting the Lannisters they knew, Westeros knew, we readers knew of course he was going to attack them if he had the chance that's what armies fucking do. And no Robb never gave the Lannister army any sense of protection he never said I won't attack you while you're sleeping or your back is turned. The Lannister army should know in war that enemies sneak up on you and attack you they should know this that's how they sacked Kings Landing and massacred the Reynes and Tarbecks. 

 

Nobody is denying the slight that was done to Walder and I also don't see many if anybody thinking that he didn't deserve his vengeance. But don't try to put him and Robb on the same page together. Walder is a petty man who used a tradition as old as time to sit a boy and his men down and slaughtered them because he couldn't do it on the battlefield, but what else would you expect from a Frey, Bolton, and Lannister? 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

3 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

 And no Robb never gave the Lannister army any sense of protection he never said I won't attack you while you're sleeping or your back is turned. The Lannister army should know in war that enemies sneak up on you and attack you they should know this that's how they sacked Kings Landing and massacred the Reynes and Tarbecks. 

Same goes for Robb.

[LordPathera]

3 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Same goes for Robb.

Except that the Freys lied to Robb about accepting his attempts for amends. As far as Robb knew, the Freys were about to rejoin him after he'd repented of slighting them.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

1 minute ago, LordPathera said:

Except that the Freys lied to Robb about accepting his attempts for amends. As far as Robb knew, the Freys were about to rejoin him after he'd repented of slighting them.

Yup. The Freys took him by surprise, which was Robb's favourite battlefield tactic. Robb, like the sleeping Westerland men, thought they were safe and suffered for it.

[JonisHenryTudor]

5 hours ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Also fair enough.

Personally I love the Freys, they are my favourite House but I have no problem with what Manderly or the Brotherhood have done to them as in Westeros you reap what you sow.

If the story had them all wiped  out (along with the Boltons and Cersei's brrod) my biggest problem would not so much be the innocents who died but that it kind of takes away from the realism that the series has tried to maintain (if you ignore the Dragons and Wights) by having the baddies get there just deserts.

Oh I agree, no Medieval lord would annihilate an enemies entire retinue unless necessary. Those men represent future allies and supporters. England, of course, was slightly different from the continent where feudal lords were constantly on guard, but the same idea applies. Placing a Stark at the Crossing or a Stark supporter would create future problems. It is better to punish the central plotters, but make allies of the others less involved. So Walder and his "immediate" sons.

 

 

But there are so many Freys that Bran or Rickon would probably get bored after awhile and sue for peace ;).   

[LordPathera]

7 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Yup. The Freys took him by surprise, which was Robb's favourite battlefield tactic. Robb, like the sleeping Westerland men, thought they were safe and suffered for it.

You're clearly missing the false equivalency.

The Starks and Lannisters were enemies in war and made no secret of it to each other.

The Freys acted like friends to the Starks and then stabbed them in the back. That's called betrayal my friend.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

4 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

You're clearly missing the false equivalency.

The Starks and Lannisters were enemies in war and made no secret of it to each other.

The Freys acted like friends to the Starks and then stabbed them in the back. That's called betrayal my friend.

Robb stabbed the Freys in the back after Stervon and hundreds of other Freys had died because he agreed to marry a Frey. That is also called betrayal.

[The Wolves]

11 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Same goes for Robb.

I don't know if I'm not coming across clearer but I keep saying the same thing and it's getting repetative and irritating so I hope I'm not coming across as rude. 

But Robb didn't know the Freys were his enemies he thought he was walking into a situation that had been mended. Robb also thought that he would have to be protection of guest rights. I doubt if Robb thought that the Freys and him were enemies he would have willingly walked into the Twins 

[Sullen]

2 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

I don't know if I'm not coming across clearer but I keep saying the same thing and it's getting repetative and irritating so I hope I'm not coming across as rude. 

But Robb didn't know the Freys were his enemies he thought he was walking into a situation that had been mended. Robb also thought that he would have to be protection of guest rights. I doubt if Robb thought that the Freys and him were enemies he would have willingly walked into the Twins 

Deception is an integral part of warfare, Robb should have known better.

[LordPathera]

6 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

Robb stabbed the Freys in the back after Stervon and hundreds of other Freys had died because he agreed to marry a Frey. That is also called betrayal.

Robb didn't kill thousands of people when he broke the marriage contract. He also tried to make amends for his breach in the pact as best as he could.

Walder Frey's betrayal is far worst because of the additional pettiness, ruthlessness, death and deception involved.

[LordPathera]

4 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Deception is an integral part of warfare, Robb should have known better.

So how's Robb supposed to know that he was at war with the Freys? Again, the Freys deceived Robb into thinking they'd accepted his attempts to make amends.

[Sullen]

5 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

So how's Robb supposed to know that he was at war with the Freys? Again, the Freys deceived Robb into thinking they'd accepted his attempts to make amends.

He's supposed to know that there is possible hostility between the two of them because he just stabbed them in the back, that he dropped his guard so readily shows just how inexperienced he was.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, The Wolves said:

I don't see how Robb deserved his fate. His crime(a broken marriage agreement)didn't fit his punishment. 

This. Robb broke the terms of their alliance, Lord Walder was entitled not to accept his apology and not renew the alliance or even ally with Robb's enemies - openly. What Walder did instead was plain treachery and sick to the boot. I sure don't recall Robb desecrating the bodies of dead Lannisters.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

19 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

Than again Walder should have spit in the face of Robb Stark closed Robb and his men off from going North and attacked them openly, he would have been more than justified in doing that. But at last he took the bitch way out. 

And stop trying to compare Robb and Walder's actions they can't be compared. 

This is more than just sneak attacks. Everybody knew Robb was fighting the Lannisters they knew, Westeros knew, we readers knew of course he was going to attack them if he had the chance that's what armies fucking do. And no Robb never gave the Lannister army any sense of protection he never said I won't attack you while you're sleeping or your back is turned. The Lannister army should know in war that enemies sneak up on you and attack you they should know this that's how they sacked Kings Landing and massacred the Reynes and Tarbecks. 

 

Nobody is denying the slight that was done to Walder and I also don't see many if anybody thinking that he didn't deserve his vengeance. But don't try to put him and Robb on the same page together. Walder is a petty man who used a tradition as old as time to sit a boy and his men down and slaughtered them because he couldn't do it on the battlefield, but what else would you expect from a Frey, Bolton, and Lannister? 

You say that doing what he did is the "bitch way", but I say that doing what you say he should have done is the "stupid way". Walder Frey saw an advantage and he took it. Why would he throw it away? For his "honour"? I don't see why he should. It would be like Jaime Lannister telling Aerys that he plans to kill him, then giving him a chance to gather some people to defend him. Seems an odd thing to do, to me.

And, no, perhaps he couldn't defeat him on the battlefield. Why, then, should he openly declare that he opposes the Starks? He took the clever option, rather than the bold option. A good move.

9 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

I don't know if I'm not coming across clearer but I keep saying the same thing and it's getting repetative and irritating so I hope I'm not coming across as rude. 

But Robb didn't know the Freys were his enemies he thought he was walking into a situation that had been mended. Robb also thought that he would have to be protection of guest rights. I doubt if Robb thought that the Freys and him were enemies he would have willingly walked into the Twins 

I don't feel that you're coming off as rude, and I hope I'm not either. We just have opposing views, is all.

But, of course Robb wouldn't have gone into the Twins if he knew that they were enemies. There lies the advantage for Walder Frey, an advantage that he made great use of. For what Robb did at Oxcross, the camped army wouldn't have just sat there if they knew Robb was coming. There lies the advantage for Robb Stark, and advantage that he made great use of. I know you don't think so, and that's fine, but to me, they seem to be identical situations.

In war, you take the advantages that present themselves to you.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

7 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

Robb didn't kill thousands of people when he broke the marriage contract.

He was responsible for around 500-1,000 Frey deaths.

7 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

 

He also tried to make amends for his breach in the pact as best as he could.

lol No he didn't. He tried to make amends because he needed them.

We must win back the Freys," said Robb. "With them, we still have some chance of success, however small. Without them, I see no hope.

 

7 minutes ago, LordPathera said:

Walder Frey's betrayal is far worst because of the additional pettiness, ruthlessness, death and deception involved.

Sure it is worse, though not far worse. Robb betrayed the Freys, he costs hundreds of them to die and made them enemies of the Crown by making them (and no other Riverlord) go West to pay them back in kind.

He used the Freys and then betrayed them.

[The Wolves]

4 minutes ago, Sullen said:

Deception is an integral part of warfare, Robb should have known better.

Known better about what?  

Robb didn't think he was at war with the Freys. The Freys never told him that they were at war with him. Instead they made demands he complied, took responsibility for what he did(not a lot of characters can say they ever did this)and tried to make amends. It didn't work. 

I could see your point if the Freys were openly hostile to Robb and threatened his life and than they invited him to the Twins and the idiot gladly goes. Than yeah he should be aware to watch his back. 

[thelittledragonthatcould]

4 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

This. Robb broke the terms of their alliance, Lord Walder was entitled not to accept his apology and not renew the alliance or even ally with Robb's enemies - openly. What Walder did instead was plain treachery and sick to the boot. I sure don't recall Robb desecrating the bodies of dead Lannisters.

The Lannisters in their watchtowers got not so much a glimpse of them." Rivers lowered his voice. "There's some say that after the battle, the king cut out Stafford Lannister's heart and fed it to the wolf."

Seems like he may have.

[The Wolves]

4 minutes ago, thelittledragonthatcould said:

The Lannisters in their watchtowers got not so much a glimpse of them." Rivers lowered his voice. "There's some say that after the battle, the king cut out Stafford Lannister's heart and fed it to the wolf."

Seems like he may have.

No he didn't. 

Just like Robb supposedly fed Grey Wind Jaime's hand. 

Robb is a better person than that to do such cruelties to a body. 

[Ygrain]

8 minutes ago, cyberdirectorfreedom said:

In war, you take the advantages that present themselves to you.

War or not, there are always lines that shouldn't be crossed. Take JonCon - had he burnt Stoney Sept to the ground, he would have killed Robert, perhaps ended the Rebellion, and saved Rhaegar's life. He didn't, because it would have been butchery, an atrocity, far above the usual warfare.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Just now, The Wolves said:

No he didn't. 

Just like Robb supposedly fed Grey Wind Jaime's hand. 

Robb is a better person than that to do such cruelties to a body. 

We have reports that he did. Northmen raped and plundered from their own allies in Stoney Sept, Northmen killed sleeping children in their beds. I really don't see how this is any less likely than the other times Northmen have acted in a less than honourable manner.