What do you think Sansa's role is going to be in the last few books?

[Sansa's lemon cakes]

On 4/2/2016 at 10:42 AM, Lord High Papal said:

I hope Sansa won't last that long.  My favorite role for Sansa?  Ground fertilizer after her death by Robert Strong.

What the heck is wrong with you? That is positively disgusting. 

[Sansa's lemon cakes]

On 4/3/2016 at 9:21 AM, Risto said:

Except that is not how things happened. First, Sansa didn't corroborate Joffrey's story, she just wanted to be neutral in confrontation between her current and future family. People somehow forget she was supposed to marry Joffrey and her testimony most certainly didn't lead to Lady's death as we do know Cersei already wanted direwolves dead. As for Ned, well, if he didn't go to Cersei, he would have never been in the position, not to say that Sansa didn't think she was siding with Cersei and against Ned. She disobeyed her father, but in her mind there wasn't malicious thought towards Ned and there is no argument that she would do what she did if she knew the consequences. Not only that, but she actually does her best when Varys, LF, Pycelle and Cersei corners her and talk about Ned's betrayal.

As for SR, I am not for a split of a second believe that she is actively poisoning him regardless of what certain corners of fandom may think. Given... (TWOW spoilers)

  Reveal hidden contents

She actually positively influences SR and the boy seems to be getting better under her. He is more stable and she did protect him when she made him organize his own personal guard. And furthermore, she expressed genuine concern for the boy.

That said, there is no logical conclusion according to which Sansa would actually be a willing participant in SR's murder. What LF has told her is basically something and even in that moment, we see how Sansa is not actually seeing SR dead. As for the sweetmilk, even Colemon obviously has no other options in treating the boy. 

So, when it comes to Sansa's so-called betrayals, they are always product of naivete, blindness or sometimes desire to accommodate to everyone. The problem is that she lives in the world where even the smallest mistake leads to catastrophic consequences, but that is the lesson she has learned.

There is just one flaw in the plan... LF's pet project and Varys' pet project getting together? Never gonna happen.

You want to say that there are no smart politicians, historians, philosophers, language experts, artists, plenty of whom would suck in a bit more complicated mathematics. Math is a good indicator of smartness, but not the only one.

Tyrion is tied to politics. Jon is tied to politics. Dany is tied to politics. This is the story about politics, among other things. She has a magical component as she is a skichanger. I am sorry, but I don't see how quote about Stannis is relevant in any way. 

If people think that politics won't matter in the two upcoming novels, then I assume they should prepare for a huge surprise. Politics and machinations will matter. They always do.

Thank you Risto for being the MVP! I love your defenses of Sansa. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 4/2/2016 at 10:49 AM, shadows and dust said:

I think the scene could be equally symbolic of other things that would point more toward her not returning to Winterfell - at least not in a finished state capacity - and staying long-term in the Vale. 

1) Winterfell was not about the height of the towers or the sum of the parts. Rebuilding Winterfell without her family there, leaves her cold. You might as well use snow for stone.

2) Home is where the heart is. If she's happy, if she's with people she cares for, she can build "Winterfell" anywhere.

If you have any conviction towards the final arc being a strong-Sansa leading a weaker husband and running a strong family (Queen of Thorns style) then that scenario only works outside of Winterfell. She will not be a matriarch in the North, she will be a sister of a Stark of Winterfell.

We mortals are but shadows and dust. Shadows and dust, Maximus! --Love it. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 4/2/2016 at 11:51 PM, lomiller said:

Sansa is antagonist not protagonist.  The story is essentially one of the "hero's" sweeping away the petty politics and political scheming of the southern lords to unite Westeros in a last stand against the Others.  GRRM has said of Stannis:

And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI.

 

Sansa, has thought the series, been tied to the politics not just by virtue of circumstance but personality and preference.  She will be sweep away like the rest when Dany, Jon, Arya, etc come and put an end to the games and politics and direct Westeros towards the real threat.  What her exact role will be remains to be seen, but it probably hasn't changed much from GRRM's leaked synopsis.  Her function in the story seems more about showing the reader what LF is up to as he appears to be the most likely candidate for being the third "lie" from tHotU. 

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amid a cheering crowd. From a stone tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire...mother of dragons...slayer of lies...

The first two are clearly Stannis and Aegon, LF would be the most likely candidate for the third, since the first 2 are the remaining pretenders to the Iron Throne, which seams to be LF's ultimate goal as well.  Additionally his home seat is a stone tower on the fingers and "shadow fire" could well refer to his methods of deception and seeding chaos while remaining hidden behind the scenes.

 

What exactly she does will probably doesn't matter much.  She will likely support LF as per the synopsis, possibly by challenging Rickon's claim to the North but will end up losing and possibly gets pregnant someplace along the way.

That's really interesting. I don't ever recall reading a decent argument for Littlefinger being the great stone beast. Of course, his family's sigil is the stone head of the titan of bravos, and the dude is a beast. I need a little more on how breathing shadow fire relates to him though... 

Rather than derail this thread, I'd like to continue the discussion, if you are so inclined, here. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 4/3/2016 at 4:52 AM, chrisdaw said:

Her role isn't to give insight into LF. LF and all his plans only exist because Sansa exists, because her arc demanded someone directly teach her the game of thrones. LF is not the end game, LF is nothing more than a rung on her ladder, that is his base purpose. GRRM is just extremely good at plotting and incorporates characters well into the story (besides Penny) so that they don't appear simple plot points on our main POV arcs. Marge and Cersei are indirect teachers, on a what do and what not to do basis, and LF is the direct teacher and the emboldener. The end game is Queen Sansa showing us first hand how to play the game of thrones more gloriously than any other, all the way to the top and indirectly ruling Westeros (for a time, until Jon).

I could not disagree more. The way I am reading the trilogy, Petyr is THE primary antagonist, the big bad, in the first act of A Song of Ice and Fire, The War of the Five Kings. Essentially, the antagonist is a plot device, used to embroil the protagonist in some conflict which establishes the drama. Petyr is the primary agent behind the downfall of House Stark in the first three books, which comprise the War of the Five Kings. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 4/3/2016 at 1:57 PM, lomiller said:

Fairly well laid out and entirely consistent with what GRRM has said his reasons for creating the character were in the first place.  He wanted a foil, someone who was at odds with the reset of the family, and from the beginning he depicted her as more southerner than Stark.  We also know from his leaked synopsis that his plan for the character was to have her betray her family.  I guess the claim is that part is all done now and GRRM has given her some grand new plot-line to redeem herself, but there isn't any evidence in the test to support this and as you point out the pattern of siding against family is still continuing. 

 

The show isn't exactly cannon but we know there are spoilers there from time to time,

Spoiler

I don't think it's coincidence that the story in the Vale was written out completely and Sansa was plunked into Jeyne Pool's storyline.  GRRM's original plot-line called for Sansa to be pregnant with a child of her families enemies and the events of the show pretty look like an expedient way to get there.  I would not be surprised if she ends up pregnant in both show and book, which would be consistent with the idea that GRRM's original plot ideas for her we delayed not replaced. 

She's still the traitor siding with her families enemies

You should put show content is spoilers. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 4/3/2016 at 2:27 PM, LongRider said:

You do know Robert died the same morning Sansa went to Cersei?  Readers aren't told exactly when he died, but Ned was told an hour after he went to his solar after telling Sansa and Arya they were shipping out that afternoon.  Sansa ran to Cersei after learning about the plan to leave.  She had nothing to do with King Rob and he may have been dead already when she spoke to the  queen for all we know. 

 

Or perhaps Cersei put the pillow down over Robert's head after Sansa ran to her. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 4/3/2016 at 6:03 PM, Risto said:

Joffrey is a crowned prince, any attack on him is illegal regardless of morality. There is a reason why Ned was so scared for Arya and hoping to find her before Lannister men. He knew in what danger Arya was. Simply, according to the law, Arya couldn't and shouldn't have attacked Joffrey. Arya was hot-headed as usual and the situation got out of control. At the end of the day, no one can deny that direwolves are dangerous. Stories have been told about what Grey wind did. And Nymeria, when we talk about her.

Jesus, she sounds worse than Boltons, Freys and Tywin combined 

 

Yet the gods (with a little help from Baelor Breakspear) acquitted Dunk. Joffrey exhibited malicious intent toward an innocent human being, a commoner yes, but are commoners completely without rights? Did not the gods (with a little help from Baelor Breakspear) show that such actions are wrong, and recognize the virtue of those who protect the weak in such situations? 

[Mladen]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yet the gods (with a little help from Baelor Breakspear) acquitted Dunk. Joffrey exhibited malicious intent toward an innocent human being, a commoner yes, but are commoners completely without rights? Did not the gods (with a little help from Baelor Breakspear) show that such actions are wrong, and recognize the virtue of those who protect the weak in such situations? 

Well, first, that is quite the leap of faith. Second, I am not talking that Arya wasn't right to attack Joffrey. But morality of her actions and legality are two completely different things. Arya herself knew that she did something wrong which is why she went into hiding after the incident. Of course she was right to smack Joffrey. But, alas, in the universe of ASOIAF (not that our world is any different), when you attack someone with the power Joffrey had, there are bound to be consequences.

 

4 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Or perhaps Cersei put the pillow down over Robert's head after Sansa ran to her. 

I am not quite sure that timeline of the events allow such thing. Robert's death and Sansa's indiscretion pretty much happened at the same time, which is why Cersei acted. Even in her thoughts, Cersei never goes "if Sansa didn't come to me, I wouldn't have killed Robert". It is more that she got to strike first. That said, organizing everything took some time, and we have to suppose that Pycelle first informed Cersei and then Ned about Robert's death. I do admit that timeline is a little blurry here, but with or without Sansa, Robert was a dead man.

 

5 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I could not disagree more. The way I am reading the trilogy, Petyr is THE primary antagonist, the big bad, in the first act of A Song of Ice and Fire, The War of the Five Kings. Essentially, the antagonist is a plot device, used to embroil the protagonist in some conflict which establishes the drama. Petyr is the primary agent behind the downfall of House Stark in the first three books, which comprise the War of the Five Kings. 

Yeah, I would agree. But that also cements Sansa's status as one of the protagonists of the story. And given GRRM's opinion regarding ASOIAF being "cross-generational" saga and the amount of focus and detailed work around Sansa becoming wittier, smarter, learning the lessons from the past, it does put her in the shoes of one of the main protagonists of the story.

[Marco van Panter]

The same as always: Suspense ...

[Sabhayata]

well I think she going to be instrumental in restoring Starks back to power in the North.

[House Cambodia]

Trace her whole character arc - immature annoying precious princess > horribly abused weak victim > strong young woman.

 

She's going to continue to become stronger and more powerful and ultimately be one of the very few survivors of the series.

[Essan]

Yes, I think she's a survivor - or if she dies, it's in a heroic manner.   I think she'll be instrumental in bringing the Knight of the Vale north to Winterfell, just in the nick of time.

[House Cambodia]

8 minutes ago, Essan said:

Yes, I think she's a survivor - or if she dies, it's in a heroic manner.   I think she'll be instrumental in bringing the Knight of the Vale north to Winterfell, just in the nick of time.

Well that'll happen in this TV season - the scale of the books is far greater and I think there will be a heck of a lot of action to follow the supposed 'big battle'.

[Springwatch]

1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

Trace her whole character arc - immature annoying precious princess > horribly abused weak victim > strong young woman.

She's going to continue to become stronger and more powerful and ultimately be one of the very few survivors of the series.

I like this quote from Sansa's thoughts:

Quote

My skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory, to steel.

• Precious princess = porcelain = like a porcelain doll, perhaps.
• Weak victim = ivory = in the books, ivory always appears right alongside helpless victims.
• Strong woman = steel = the smith at the Wall used metals to describe character. True steel was the best thing to be.

[House Cambodia]

^ yes, spot on!

[Good Guy Garlan]

I want her to marry Aegon and be the Alicent to Dany's Rhaenyra

[Ser Creighton]

What's with some of the Sansa hate? I am not the biggest Sansa fan, I like the character but there are others I like better is all. But relative to importance, she is there for a reason. I don't place her at the Tyrion level, because you know Martin and Tyrion, but I think she is an important player for act no doubt. I think act 3 especially the conclusion is going to come down to a select 3 or 4 characters. The impact of the other characters may relate to that, but I think the final book will focus more on 3-4 characters.

First Sansa is a kid, and she is going to make mistakes, it would be stupid if she didn't, just like all the characters make mistakes, just like we make mistakes. Given her shit over that is just stupid, and her actions have always been kept well within the context of her story. Martin keeps all his characters within a certain context within their own stories, and goes for more logical outcomes within that story.

There are things I find interesting her symbolism, nature, and development. And some that are worrying, again not really all that different from other characters. I have no expectation of a happy ending for Sansa, or for any character, bittersweet is bittersweet, and these stories have never been happy ones. They have happy moments but it's like life. shit's not easy

So I like this porcelain line that gets mentioned a lot, though I guess I read it differently. It reminds me of the line about Stannis and Iron, it's hard but brittle. You can get into the moon symbolism, the bat, porcelain being pale and hard yet brittle, kind of like ice. Though I have no expectation of her being a Night's Queen or anything. But there is a reason for that symbolism, just like Martin has reasons for most of the symbolism.

 For the brittle and hard aspect you can kind of see this transformation occurring through the books.

The Ned, Arya, Lady and Joff seen. I read this as a scared kid making an omission when she was put on the spot. The impact becomes the death of Lady. I put most of the blame on Joff and Cersei, but she still made an omission. But I can understand it, and the repercussions are harsh to say the least.

But it starts with the death of Lady, and this will repeat through her story.

Sansa going to Cersei about Ned. Was not malicious, but it did not help either. Even Martin said she is partly responsible, but so are a lot of other people, like Ned and Cersei, and Robert, and Joff and Littlefinger etc...

Ned ends up dead, another devastating moment for Sansa.

This is going to Jade a anyone and it does, she gets harder, she gets stronger there is no question to that, but also more jaded.

We see this with Dantos. Dantos was a nut, and he got paid to help her, and had rather uncomfortable attraction to Sansa, and he was paid to help her. But still risked his life. Littlefinger kills, doesn't want to leave a trail. Sansa gets over this pretty quickly. She pretty  much looks the other way but their are reasons for this within the context of her story. Pretty happy to be free.

Lysa, another nut. Tried to kill Sansa, and Littlefinger kills her and Sansa is more than willing to look the other way.

Sweet Robin, Sansa does not really care for him, but now he is an ends to a mean for her and she is willing to manipulate him. Not out to kill him, but does not mind using him. Not a likable character but still a kid.

Sansa has gone from her fantasy about politics to the reality of Westeros politics and a long the way a lot her ideas, beliefs and ideals have died. Which is probably best exemplified by Joff and Dantos. Her Golden Prince and her hero.

Her direction, would seem to involve either Stannis or Aegon in the future, or both. My bet is on Stannis, but there could be a kidnapping similar to Lyanna, she seems connected to Harrenhal given her standing as a daughter of the Lord of Harrenhal among other things. I don't see a lot of magic with her, but rather a lot of politics, which has been the landscape she has been tied to since day one. In some ways she mirrors Lyanna and in some ways Dany. I do wonder if she will be connected to Euron at some point. Which may seem odd, but Harrenhal will always be connected to the Iron Born and he seems to be the major second act villain in Westeros. Maybe not but it would seem he will have a major impact on a great part of the second act, and she is in the political scene.

Varys is using Aegon for his own plans, and Littlefinger seems to be using Sansa the same way, I can't say how this will work out for Vary or Littlefinger, but it's probably not good. Euron seems like an interruption, a catalyst event for for the second act, much like Cersei. Though he may be Dany related only, but that seems off given his actions center around Westeros. I don't know I get the feeling the two will cross paths at some point, in some way. I don't know he seems more of a symbolic stand in till the real show starts. He'll probably run a parallel to the Night's King before Sansa hit's him with Lemon bringer or something. Maybe he kills Cersei, he is a  little brother after all. He is connected to the Tyrells at this point, and thus the Lannisters, and Aegon and Sansa and Euron and Stannis should act as disruptive catalysts in Winds, at least that's what I think. I feel like those 4 should have some connection, and big parts in Winds.     

 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

12 hours ago, Risto said:

Well, first, that is quite the leap of faith. Second, I am not talking that Arya wasn't right to attack Joffrey. But morality of her actions and legality are two completely different things. Arya herself knew that she did something wrong which is why she went into hiding after the incident. Of course she was right to smack Joffrey. But, alas, in the universe of ASOIAF (not that our world is any different), when you attack someone with the power Joffrey had, there are bound to be consequences.

 

I am not quite sure that timeline of the events allow such thing. Robert's death and Sansa's indiscretion pretty much happened at the same time, which is why Cersei acted. Even in her thoughts, Cersei never goes "if Sansa didn't come to me, I wouldn't have killed Robert". It is more that she got to strike first. That said, organizing everything took some time, and we have to suppose that Pycelle first informed Cersei and then Ned about Robert's death. I do admit that timeline is a little blurry here, but with or without Sansa, Robert was a dead man.

 

Yeah, I would agree. But that also cements Sansa's status as one of the protagonists of the story. And given GRRM's opinion regarding ASOIAF being "cross-generational" saga and the amount of focus and detailed work around Sansa becoming wittier, smarter, learning the lessons from the past, it does put her in the shoes of one of the main protagonists of the story.

Dunk knew he had violated the law too. He stood trial, and seven angry gods (catch the allusion? ) with a little help from Baelor Breakspear acquitted him, thereby establishing a precedent. Common law in the English speaking world evolved from such precedents beginning in Medieval England. 

"Robert's death and Sansa's indiscretion pretty much happened at the same time," Exactly. Can't you see Cersei thinking, "Shit, time to move now," then saying, "Dorcas, take this wine. Pycell, fetch me the big fluffy pillow." 

Always glad to find agreement. I believe Sansa serves an entirely different purpose than the one you see for her, and I see her lemony end full of bitterness and disappointment, but I acknowledge that you lemonheads and SanSanistas just might be right. 

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Dunk knew he had violated the law too. He stood trial, and seven angry gods (catch the allusion? ) with a little help from Baelor Breakspear acquitted him, thereby establishing a precedent. Common law in the English speaking world evolved from such precedents beginning in Medieval England. 

Yeah, I understand that but if the Baelor didn't react or Arya wasn't who she was, both would met untimely end. But, Gods are good

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

"Robert's death and Sansa's indiscretion pretty much happened at the same time," Exactly. Can't you see Cersei thinking, "Shit, time to move now," then saying, "Dorcas, take this wine. Pycell, fetch me the big fluffy pillow." 

When speaking about the share of guilt regarding Ned's fall, Martin never says that Sansa is the one who sets things into motion. He talks about the information she has provided to Cersei, all relevant in capturing Ned, but not about her being immediate cause of Robert's death.

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Always glad to find agreement. I believe Sansa serves an entirely different purpose than the one you see for her, and I see her lemony end full of bitterness and disappointment, but I acknowledge that you lemonheads and SanSanistas just might be right. 

I do think there will be a lot of disappointments for Sansa but I also believe she is one of the 6 protagonists of the story. I do think that the end for her is not about being Queen (I have seen many Sansa fans claiming this, but honestly, it has been a long time since I abandoned that stance). I do think that she is bound to become smarter and I do believe Martin sees her that way. I believe she will have her role in the events to come and it will be appropriate to who she really is. But, I do agree that there are many options.