What do you think Sansa's role is going to be in the last few books?

[Dya of Oldstones]

4 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I think this little bird has one more song to sing. She has already been pivotal in many ways. As mentioned above: her engagement to Joff, tipping Ned off about the bastardry her role in Lysa's death and LF's General scheming.

But there is more. She plays a formative role in the early stages of the Hound's redemption arc and, perhaps most importantly, she has been our lens into the grit and nihilistic reality of this world. 

As readers, in a way, we all go through a Sansa-like transformation when reading ASOIAF. In the same way that Sansa has to realize the hollow nature of chivalry and court pageantry and the songs she loved so dearly and confront the harsh realities of the world around her, leaving her child like innocence behind and realizing her old thoughts were immature and foolish, we readers are leaving behind the old tropes of fantasy literature (like LOTR) and realizing that while we loved it it too was childish and foolish and is now being replaced with a harder reality.

As fantasy readers we are Sansa. We grew up loving the songs, but the moment they took off Ned Stark's head we entered a world where everything was different.

I like that take on it and I've seen a thread before on Sansa being connected with the telling of the story which I can't find now. I don't quite see her as becoming a silent sister, but she may have had enough of marriage schemes by the end of the series to stay single.

5 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

She's going to turn master player, the way of a Lannister, not the way of Starks. And Sandor is in the end going to choose Arya and Jon over her.

Thank the Old Gods and The Seven Woody Allen is not writing this series...Arya is still a CHILD! As much as I like the Arya and Gendry pairing, she's still too young even for that and may still be by series end.

I'm still not sure how much I ship SanSan in canon (at least at this point), but I do subscribe to it for much the same reasons put forth by @Karmani and @Le Cygne. And for all the talk of Sansa making a political match either with Tyrion or one of LF's schemes, it's not only Sansa being left out out of the discussion, but her entire family. While I think she is too highborn to ignore politics if she does end up marrying, her own choices and how her family could benefit from that need to be on the table too. So far, the only people in story making matches for her are those who want to see the Stark line become extinct.
 

[Maia]

On 15.6.2016 at 1:39 AM, Lady_of_the_black said:

Not sure if this will happen or not, but I really want sansa to learn how to warg. It doesn't seem very likely, since lady is dead. 

On the contrary, I think that Sansa already was in the initial stages of skin-changing with the decrepit old hound in Littlefinger's holdfast. Then she was removed from any contact with animals in the Eyrie, but I fully expect her to bond with one again, now that she is at the Gates of Moon. Not to mention that IIRC they have a weirwood there, so Bran might be able to "touch" her and help her abilities along, like he did with Jon in ACoK.

Re: all the talk of how her lack of werewolf indicates something or other, I do find it interesting how ADwD stressed that skin-changed animals can be passed along and how they don't necessary die with their human. And that Summer is finding it difficult to feed himself. If Bran remains in the cave, he might send Summer to help Sansa. If something happens to Rickon, she may well inherit Shaggy. Etc.

I think that Sansa's future is wide open, but that her immediate role will be to feed and shelter northern refugees once North gets overrun and to make sure that that the Valemen get into the fight with the Others in time to slow down their onslaught. To achieve that she'll need to get rid of Littlefinger and seize power in the Vale, somehow. Or help somebody who would listen seize it - Lord Royce, maybe? If they truly "remember", Royces could be a big asset. 

If Sansa does get to go back North and re-build Winterfell, it will happen after the Others are defeated and thrown back, IMHO.

[chrisdaw]

51 minutes ago, Dya of Oldstones said:

Thank the Old Gods and The Seven Woody Allen is not writing this series...Arya is still a CHILD! As much as I like the Arya and Gendry pairing, she's still too young even for that and may still be by series end.
 

Sandor isn't going to be Arya's lover, he's going to choose to serve her and her king rather than Sansa the master manipulator, the master liar.

[LordImp]

I belive Sansa to become a player and a manipulator , basically a new Cersei but much better of course. 

[zandru]

Le Cygne writes "[Sandor] seems to intuitively pick up Sansa is a warg. "

Where, exactly, are you finding this? I've never seen any evidence that Sandor knows anything about wargs, much less Sansa. Never seen anything in either Sansa's nor Alayne's chapters that suggest she was even aware of having a warging contact with Lady, or any other animal. Or that Sansa was aware there was such a thing as wargs. Note also that she's significantly older than Arya, who is just recently starting to recognize and use her ability to see through the eyes of other animals and should be realizing that her "wolf dreams" are Nymeria's reality. The older the child, the harder it was to bond with the direwolf, Jon Snow excepted. And not only was Sansa old, she had relatively brief contact with Lady. So I submit that Sansa is no warg, and may never be.

[Le Cygne]

GRRM has said that all the Stark children are wargs:

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I will now tell the story of what GRRM said when asked about the Stark children and their ability as wargs. He was asked if the trait of being a warg ran in the Stark family.

"I don't know if I want to get into genetics - this is fantasy, not scifi" He replied. "I don't think this is necessarily a 'Stark' ability, though all the children have it to one extent or another. They also realize it to one extent or another. Arya doesn't realize she has it, she keeps thinking she has these weird dreams, and of course Bran is much further along". Thats all I have in of an exact quote in my notes. I believe he went on to say something about how Bran was seeking the crow and then took the next question.

I did not say there was anything explicit about warging in the narrative. I am referring to the many references to Lady where Sandor appears either in person or in Sansa's thoughts, and Sandor is the one who calls her little bird and refers to her flying. "Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it" at the time of Lady's death is interesting, too.

Here are some of the Hound and Lady juxtapositions in the narrative (I posted this on another thread):

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The Hound and Lady "compete" to protect Sansa:

Strong hands grasped her by the shoulders, and for a moment Sansa thought it was her father, but when she turned, it was the burned face of Sandor Clegane looking down at her. Lady moved between them, rumbling a warning.

He does the between move to protect Sansa later:

Sandor Clegane knelt before her, between her and Joffrey. With a delicacy surprising in such a big man, he dabbed at the blood welling from her broken lip.

She thinks about the Hound protecting her, then Lady:

"You mean the Hound," she said... "Is it safe to leave him behind?" She found herself thinking of Lady, wishing the direwolf was with her.

Robert to Ned, just before Lady dies:

"A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son. Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it."

And when Sansa thinks about Lady:

Sansa found herself thinking of Lady again. She could smell out falsehood, she could...

She runs right into Sandor and he says:

"A dog can smell a lie, you know."

Again, she thinks Lady and Sandor is there:

Sansa backed away from the window... "Lady," she whimpered softly, wondering if she would meet her wolf again when she was dead... Then something stirred behind her, and a hand reached out of the dark and grabbed her wrist.

She wishes Lady was there when she dreams of him, too:

Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you," he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. "I wish that you were Lady," she said.

I found nearly 2 dozen times Sandor calls Sansa "little bird" and yet more times "pretty bird" or some variation, and won't list them all here, but here are some flight references:

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"And what’s Joff's little bird doing flying down the serpentine in the black of night?"...

"The little bird thinks she has wings, does she?" ...

"Now fly away, little bird."...

He catches her before she can fall, over and over, she's not ready to fly yet...

"The little bird flew away, did she?"

This is also interesting:

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I asked about the previous day's panel, when George had mentioned intentional mistakes. Was Sansa's memory of the Hound kissing her when he actually had not an intentional mistake? Why would she think that? He said it was in fact intentional, but he would not tell us why. I said he was mean, and he laughed at me.

I also asked if Sandor would be in the upcoming book. He pleaded the fifth. I said he was mean, and he laughed at me.

We talked a bit about the children and their wolves. I mentioned Sansa just having a poor old crippled dog [the hound at the Fingers] because she lost her wolf. He got a queer smile about his lips when I said that and nodded. Make of that what you will.

 

[zandru]

@ Le Cygne: "Sandor is the one who calls her little bird and refers to her flying. "

Nothing to do with "warging" and everything to do with Sansa's parroting of courtesies and her captivity in a golden cage. "Flying" references refer to escape, not "warging" outta there.

The protectiveness Sandor shows towards Sansa is well established; nothing new here. It's got a strong basis in pity, aka "the death of desire."

[Le Cygne]

Well, I think I made a pretty good case.

As for the pity is the death to desire line, she said that about Tyrion.

This is what she's doing when it comes to Sandor (and a whole lot more):

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As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

Little bird quickly became a pet name, a term of endearment. The official app even says he is "infatuated" with her. But there's clearly a long, detailed Beauty and the Beast story for them, where he even gives the Hound the Beast's lines (I am no lord, and I don't love compliments.) He's basing the story on Jean Cocteau's La Belle et la Bete.

They care a lot about each other, that's very clear in the narrative. There are so many examples to illustrate this, the "I wish the Hound were here" passage is a nice illustration of that, but there's so much more. The details have details. But as I was saying here, I do think he's hinting at Sansa as a warg.

Whether she will skinchange or not, it's showing Sansa and Sandor have this bond. There's also the hound at the Fingers, which is very interesting. She makes "fast friends" with him, and he defends her, and sleeps with her when she dreams of the Hound in bed with her. That's worded similarly to when Ned petted Lady the last time, and also the Blackwater scene.

There are so many bird and flight and Lady references. And the juxtaposition is quite evident in the examples above. She thinks about Lady and runs or backs into him. And Sandor is not just referring to escape, he only does that once, when he's quite proud of her that she finally flew away. He also mentions the word lady in that scene, too ("a proper lady").

There are also lots of dog references in her story. At one point she misses "hounds to bark and growl" and she admires his ferocity, this is a draw for her. She says she will have a sweet dream and wake to dogs barking. Dogs are barking just before she has her dream of him in bed with her. Of course, get her a dog, she'll be happier for it. And much more.

It's a beautiful story. GRRM also said the kiss will feature in the next book, too. As for her role in the next books, so much emphasis has been placed on Sandor in her story (much of it placed there by Sansa herself), I think he's returning to the narrative for her. He's important to her and the role she plays in the story to come.

[zandru]

@Le Cygne: I still thing you're "warging" up the wrong tree, and that the bird metaphor is just that, not some kind of deep insight into Stark heredity/history. There are more references to the caged aspect of bird-hood than you may have caught, such as after he has rescued Sansa from the bread riots, he tells the men to "take the little bird back to her cage."

You missed my point on pity being the death of desire. Sansa is creeped out by a naked, scarred Tyrion. When she feels sorry for him, she tells herself that the very feeling of pity precludes "desire." Sandor has grown to feel sorry for a naive, clueless Sansa, who's at the mercy of Joffrey the psycho, yet all she's able to do for herself is enable Joffrey's violence. Sandor pities her as a helpless child - and thus, not an object of lust ("desire.")

Tyrion's a better "beast" for this particular "beauty." He has the added adventage of being highborn, from a major family, with vast holdings - AND they actually are married.

[Le Cygne]

Yes, he sympathizes with her, but the example you cited actually has romantic and sexual references, that he picks up later in the story, this is a very detailed story, and and very much tied to mutual desire. BatB is about Beauty making a choice, based on love and desire. The Beast awakens the beast (sexuality) within Beauty. That's where GRRM is going with this, a la Cocteau.

Joffrey takes the role of the prince ("my prince"), she's in his home. Sandor takes the role of the Beast she desires. Loras takes the role of the rose that "yields" to the Beast (the Hound). Tyrion takes the role of the wanna be rose, the Knight of Flowers in the dark, and he, too, yields to the Beast. And the Hound/Beast nearly dies of heartbreak ("remember where the heart is"). Meanwhile, Sansa/Beauty is longing for him (and his kiss).

Sansa called the forced marriage a "mockery of a marriage," she was so desperate to escape, she said "her torments would soon be ended, one way or the other." She replaces Tyrion with Sandor in the marriage bed. She describes her dream of marriage as to a tall strong man who gives her his cloak and kisses her. And she puts a tall strong man's cloak on herself and gives him the kiss (that is coming from her, again, her choosing).

The forced marriage to the enemy was a plot device. Originally she was intended to marry Joffrey, but this way the marriage is not consummated. There's nothing there on either side, Tyrion thinks of Tysha as often as Sansa thinks of Sandor. Other men are contrasts, she thinks of Sandor positively whenever she's troubled about them (this happens over and over). But the real conflict in the story to come is with Littlefinger.

He's building up to a resolution of that conflict. Littlefinger is Sansa's adversary, and has been since book 1. And Sandor is tied to this story since book 1, too. So I think that's an important consideration as far as her role in the books to come.

[Springwatch]

Neither Tyrion nor Sandor would be a good choice for Sansa as they are now - the question is, how will they change (and how will she?).

But I have a problem with Tyrion - I can't think of anything specifically about Sansa that he's attracted by; he longs for love, but I think any other beautiful young lady would have done just as well.

Whereas, with Sandor, it's all personal and specific. Sansa is the girl who trained a direwolf to perfection (he loves dogs), the girl who needs his help and listens to his advice, the girl who has to manage the Lannisters' temper every day (like he does), the girl who tried to assassinate Joffrey under the noses of the bodyguards, the girl who treats him with courtesy and kindness. Lots and lots of personal connection.

[Le Cygne]

I think we will find Sandor has already changed, when he returns to the story. He was changing gradually since the story began, slowly becoming Sandor again. What I see him doing in the narrative is making them two of a kind, she's becoming more like him, and he's becoming more like her. They are meeting in the middle. And meet they want to do, that's what's driving this. There's a special connection there, that means a lot to both of them. They compliment each other, they bring out the best in each other.

[zandru]

@Le Cygne: Seriously?? I thought Sandor was supposed to be Ivanhoe, destined to marry the lovely Rowena while always wishing for the Jewess Rachel, who had helped him so often, whose conversations were intelligent and made him think, and whose medical attentions had saved his life? Rachel, of course, being Arya...

But seriously - your big point which I've been consistently disputing in each reply - is where you asserted that Sandor called Sansa "little bird" BECAUSE he thought she "warged" her direwolf. Direwolf == Bird, right? I don't see any evidence for this, and you cited none.

And I make a lot less of their "special connection" than many do. When Sansa thinks of the Hound (not Sandor, "the Hound"), it's always in terms of what he can do for her, how she could use him in her current situtation. He would have been more forceful, he would have protected her, she might have let him take her away, yada yada. Sandor is "the help." Almost never does Sansa think of him as a man as opposed to a servant. After the Battle of the Blackwater, did she wonder if he was all right? Where he went? What he was doing now? Even what he meant when he said that he had "lost all"? No. She saw, and felt, that he was bleeding from a head wound, but never offered to help clean or bandage it; could tell that he was crying (crying! a man!) when he left, but all she was interested in doing was hiding under the covers until he was gone.

From Sandor's point of view, that last and final meeting showed him once and for all (as if the roof of Maegor's Holdfast wasn't enough) that Sansa was only a colorful parrot. What he had mistaken for affection was just her peeping back her polite words. When it came down to a matter of her life or her death, she would have nothing to do with him because she could not bear to look at him. And then, she twists the knife in his heart by singing a song designed to cause him the most pain.

Sure, he still wishes her well. But he no longer has any illusions that Sansa cares for him.

And Sansa is enrolled in the Littlefinger University of Cersei-like manipulation and lying. She'll have "changed", all right...

[Le Cygne]

This is one of the most beautiful passages in the books, and it's very revealing of that special connection:

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I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she’d been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she’d kept it. The Hound had turned craven, she heard it said; at the height of the battle, he got so drunk the Imp had to take his men. But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. That night, the wildfire had set the river itself ablaze, and filled the very air with green flame. Even in the castle, Sansa had been afraid. Outside… she could scarcely imagine it.

And she goes from there to this:

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As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

With much fevered, wherefore art thou Hound in between. Yes, she wondered where he was: "She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane." And much more... She clearly cares a lot about him.

As for him, the song was beautiful to him, he said "she sang me a sweet little song" and went on and on about her to Arya, bringing up the pretty little bird a dozen times. He clearly cares a lot about her, too.

I said Sandor seems to intuitively sense she's a warg. By this, I mean, he keeps saying she is a bird and can fly. And she keeps thinking of him, or bumping into him, or running into him, when she thinks of Lady.

That I find very remarkable. And interesting! And I gave many examples. I think it will play into the story to come.

[zandru]

@Le Cygne:

"I said Sandor seems to intuitively sense she's a warg. By this, I mean, he keeps saying she is a bird and can fly. And she keeps thinking of him, or bumping into him, or running into him, when she thinks of Lady."

I'm sorry, but this still makes no sense to me. Calling her a parrot and drawing out the metaphor isn't the same as believing she's one of the semi-mythical people who can enter the bodies of ... birds? Wolves? No.

Now are you saying she's "warging" Sandor (because he calls himself the Hound) to her? So she's operating him? Please.

Yes, eventually Sansa thinks about the Hound again, as your quote indicates. But it's in terms of being able to make use of him, as I noted. And totally whitewashing her actual behavior. Her little fantasy makes it sound as if Swashbuckling Sandor dropped by her room for a quick kiss before dashing off into the night; that she welcomed and enjoyed his attentions; and in reward, she sang him a sweet song, as she knew he would have liked, and they parted as virtual lovers. In the ugly reality, she drew back from him, told him how much he scared her, closed her eyes and pulled away from him, making him think she was once again rejecting him for his burned face. And, of course, there was no kiss. The song, such as it was, was forced at knifepoint, and then she huddled in her bed, waiting for him to go away, knowing he was bleeding from a head wound, drunk, and in tears. No skin off her pretty little nose, eh?

Sansa seems to like the concept of the Hound, as opposed to the complicated, traumatized reality of Sandor Clegane. She values what the Hound has done for her (not that she'd think of thanking him; he's 'the help', after all.) And rather than accept the tormented, troubled Sandor, she has painted this oh-so-romantic picture, with herself as the beautiful strong heroine enjoying his attentions and bidding him farewell and gods' speed. Sansa is deluding herself, much like Cersei does (foreshadowing??).

Sansa shut that door to Sandor by the way she rejected him. He literally gave up everything he had - position with the Lannisters, nearly all his possessions, his home, his reputation as a fighter - for the chance of rescuing her and taking her back to her family. She in effect told him to pound sand.

In the immediate future, Sandor learns that there's even more he can and will give up before it's over - his shield, his sword, his very life. But that's Arya's story.

[Le Cygne]

Subtext... Birds/flying and Lady references...  A song and a kiss... a dagger... a wetness that was not blood... a torn bloody cloak... fear... and excitement. He's telling their story a la Cocteau's La Belle et la Bete... Undercurrents that gradually come to the surface as the story unfolds...

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Those familiar with the 1991 cartoon will recognize some of the elements of the story, but certainly not the tone. Cocteau uses haunting images and bold Freudian symbols to suggest that emotions are at a boil in the subconscious of his characters. Consider the extraordinary shot where Belle waits at the dining table in the castle for the Beast's first entrance. He appears behind her and approaches silently. She senses his presence, and begins to react in a way that some viewers have described as fright, although it is clearly orgasmic. Before she has even seen him, she is aroused to her very depths, and a few seconds later, as she tells him she cannot marry--a Beast!--she toys with a knife that is more than a knife.

http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/great-movie-beauty-and-the-beast-1946

(Also at the upper left, that's just like the calendar art he requested for Sansa and the Hound...)

And at the end, there's this (they are talking about sex here):

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Beast: We'll fly through the air. You won't be afraid, will you?

Beauty: I don't mind being afraid... with you.

 

[zandru]

@Le Cygne Well, you are a confirmed SanSan, and I'm not. I think there's enough in the text to be able to read things differently. Besides, if George RR is just repeating B&tB verbatim, what's the point in waiting for Winds of Winter, etc.?

I think Sansa's fantasy kiss is her way of glossing over, of whitewashing, her failure and breakdown during the battle when she found Sandor in her room. She's painting herself, in her own mind, as the brave heroic Woman who takes a kiss and gives a song, rather than admitting that she acted like a scared little girl and hid until the big scary man went away. She is straining to ignore just how distressed and hurt the Hound was that night and his state of mind when he left her, and how she did nothing to calm or help him. And Sansa is supposed to be this big empathetic, highly sensitve person who is so very attuned to other people! Epic fail.

By turning her fecklessness into heroism and romance, she can (and has) forgot what really happened and how terrified she was - and how she acted that night. "The unKiss" is all for Sansa. It doesn't reflect reality, it's not a measure of what went on in Sandor's mind (would that we could see that!), and it wasn't even what Sansa was thinking and feeling. She's rewritten history to make herself look good in her own eyes. Much like Cersei, but not yet as pathological. Self delusion, rather than "twuu wuv".

[Le Cygne]

This is a big moment right here, for both of them: "Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers."

Just using it for illustration of the film, but we can see where that story beat is, when she pats him... The same beat in the books.

It's a really nicely written story. It's just the framework for the romance. From there, they tie into the greater story.

[chrisdaw]

5 hours ago, Le Cygne said:

What I see him doing in the narrative is making them two of a kind, she's becoming more like him, and he's becoming more like her. They are meeting in the middle.

They're going straight past each other. Sansa is going from the worst liar to the very best, and that's what Sandor hates most. Sandor is headed to a place of honour, where oaths and vows are codes to live by rather than laugh at. Where one's duty is to the realm and king, and fucking or running off with another man's wife is unthinkable. When Sansa comes stalking into Sandor's room with the plan to run off together, this time she'll be undeserving of him and he will turn her down.

[OldGimletEye]

27 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

They're going straight past each other. Sansa is going from the worst liar to the very best, and that's what Sandor hates most. Sandor is headed to a place of honour, where oaths and vows are codes to live by rather than laugh at. Where one's duty is to the realm and king, and fucking or running off with another man's wife is unthinkable. When Sansa comes stalking into Sandor's room with the plan to run off together, this time she'll be undeserving of him and he will turn her down.

Once, Sandor leaves the QI I do expect him to be a changed man in some significant respects. That said, I don't see him becoming some kind of Lancel Lannister holier than thou type either. Even if Sansa were to become a bit grayer, Sandor kicking her to the curb has about as much of a chance as a kerosene cat in hell with gasoline drawers on. 

Post QI Sandor might reject Sansa if she became like Cersei level evil. And I don't see that happening.

Sandor was at his best when he lied to Joffrey to protect Sansa and when he lied again to Boros Blount about when Sansa had went to the godswood and finally when during the the Blackwater riot when he seemingly chose to protect Sansa over Joffrey to whom his feudal duties were owed.

Sandor isn't stupid. If Sansa has to lie and manipulate to survive and to bring down people like LF, I'm sure Sandor would understand the context.

I don't see post-QI Sandor having some rigid Kantian view about lying.