What do you think Sansa's role is going to be in the last few books?

[UnViserion]

I'm hoping her ultimate purpose is to serve as a brood mare to Lord Walder Frey. 

Lord knows we can never have enough Freys. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

@Le Cygne I'll ignore all the nonsense and just address your Enquires as to why I think it will be a Merlin. Cos giving oxygen to baseless "theory" really doesn't enhance the reading experience impov.  so you will recall that in KL Sansa went hawking with the Tyrells. Which I'll add she greatly enjoyed, but which happened off page. On this occasion we are told she chose a Merlin. Now the sheer fact that grrm gives page time to recounting the Hawking expedition and what bird she uses, I think is a bit of a tip off. People like to say he fills the books with pointless details but in reality most all of these have meaning or significance (like I need to tell you that  ) so what is a Merlin? Why it is Europes smallest bird of prey! So it's a little bird (relatively) Now Sansa finds herself in the Vale, a place hugely associated with Hawking as a pass time.  We know Sansa is a Warg, we know she was beginning to bond Lady prior to her death but it seems from inside her POV that she had not realised this. And last time she interacted with a Hawk we didn't get to be present, so who knows what she felt? There is that possibility she jumped an eagle up in the Eyrie too. Though I'll admit it was new to me when I first read that theory. So if she goes Hawking in the Vale, a perfectly plausible activity. And she goes once again for the Merlin, my guess is we'll begin getting a few further hints. We know Skinchanging at first in the early stages requires a bond. You don't just walk up to a creature and posess it. So working with a bird repeatedly seems a possible outlet for her talent to fully emerge. We know she's good because she wasn't around that old hound long at all and he was taken with her. And IF she slipped the eagle flying around near the Sky cells (and I admit it's a big if) then these birds where ones she saw daily and so I think it has to be a bird she can be around a lot,handle, interact with, focus on and communicate with. Much like you do when training dogs or direwolves, for that matter. 

[Springwatch]

On 6/28/2016 at 4:52 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'll ignore all the nonsense and just address your Enquires as to why I think it will be a Merlin. Cos giving oxygen to baseless "theory" really doesn't enhance the reading experience impov.  so you will recall that in KL Sansa went hawking with the Tyrells. Which I'll add she greatly enjoyed, but which happened off page. On this occasion we are told she chose a Merlin. Now the sheer fact that grrm gives page time to recounting the Hawking expedition and what bird she uses, I think is a bit of a tip off. People like to say he fills the books with pointless details but in reality most all of these have meaning or significance (like I need to tell you that  ) so what is a Merlin? Why it is Europes smallest bird of prey! So it's a little bird (relatively) Now Sansa finds herself in the Vale...

The merlin absolutely must have some significance, because grrm has had to stretch reality to include it.

The problem is that a merlin is a very small bird of prey, and usually hunts small birds (such as starlings). In this story, it kills three ducks, an amazing, if not impossible achievement.

A symbolic solution would be that the 'Merlin' represents Sansa's wizard brother, Bran.

A more literal solution would be that the merlin was inspired, or driven, by a warg handler (actually I doubt this).

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

And why would you think it can't simply have been chosen to fit with her "little bird" persona?  I agree it's a stretch that he chose a Merlin and indeed three ducks is astounding. But to me the symbolism here is all about Sansa, no need to bring Bran or anyone else into it to get symbolism which would explain the stretch GRRM has done to make it a Merlin. 

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Bring Littlefinger down and be decisive in putting the Vale resources into good use.

As for her "ever after", I have no idea, but personally I mostly care about the characters' on-page contribution... but my feeling is that she'll get a happy(ish) ending, whatever that may be.

[The Sleeper]

Power broker, negotiator, diplomat.

[The Dew]

Sansa the Wolfless

[Springwatch]

 

7 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And why would you think it can't simply have been chosen to fit with her "little bird" persona?  I agree it's a stretch that he chose a Merlin and indeed three ducks is astounding. But to me the symbolism here is all about Sansa, no need to bring Bran or anyone else into it to get symbolism which would explain the stretch GRRM has done to make it a Merlin. 

I do like the suggestion that this little bird can also be a hunter, and punch well above her weight. (And incidentally, this link is not the first - when she rode through King's Landing with the royal party, her horse was a powerful hunter. Joffrey's horse was a palfrey, bred and trained for easy riding.)

At the moment though, she's stuck in the Alayne persona, stuck in Littlefinger's bubble, and stuck in the game of thrones that will shortly be made irrelevant by the coming of Winter. How will she get out? One answer is Bran. He's already made some contact with Jon. She's already experienced odd lapses of consciousness, so far unexplained. It could happen. And they would be infinitely stronger together.

And now I'll stake a personal crackpot to the forum before the next book comes out - I think ducks means dragons.

[ymaface]

I'd quite like to see a Sansa/Tyrion alliance at the end. A sort of political marriage that leads to being best buds 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

On 04/07/2016 at 5:33 PM, Springwatch said:

 

I do like the suggestion that this little bird can also be a hunter, and punch well above her weight. (And incidentally, this link is not the first - when she rode through King's Landing with the royal party, her horse was a powerful hunter. Joffrey's horse was a palfrey, bred and trained for easy riding.)

At the moment though, she's stuck in the Alayne persona, stuck in Littlefinger's bubble, and stuck in the game of thrones that will shortly be made irrelevant by the coming of Winter. How will she get out? One answer is Bran. He's already made some contact with Jon. She's already experienced odd lapses of consciousness, so far unexplained. It could happen. And they would be infinitely stronger together.

And now I'll stake a personal crackpot to the forum before the next book comes out - I think ducks means dragons.

Nice thoughts on the horses, I have my own theories regarding Alayne and the Vale. Firstly I don't thin she is as stuck in the bubble as she at first seems. She plays LF in that sample chapter, and she doesn't follow hs advice fully, she has her own thoughts and ideas and though she is going along with the main thrust of his plan, she is doing so as it suits herown agenda ie: regaining Winterfell. I agree she definitly is unaware of just how duplicitous LF truly is yet. But she's on her way to realising and when she does.... Oh boy!

I think she and Bran will communicate too, I think Bran is attempting to contact both his sisters in fact. From Mercy we see hints at him trying to reach Arya. And I think in teh Vale, it likely Alayne will end up visiting the Gods wood. Now that she is on teh vale floor, she has the oportunity, and we know she has become quite devout, she lamments the lack of heart tree in teh Eyrie and if she does go to the gods wood. Bran I think will attempt to speak to her as he did Theon in Winterfell. He could of course also come to her through her dreams, but I think she needs a "familiar" for that. I'm not certain, it feels he uses the wolves connection, when he contacts Jon, and when Ghost see's Shaggy Dog on Skaagos. When in Mercy I think he (Bran) is reaching out to Arya I think it is via Nymeria. So perhaps that way is lost to him, as Lady is gone, But perhaps if Sansa gains that Merlin? Or maybe he can hone his skills enough to do as BR does and enter dreams without that aditional connection? Anyway yes I absolutely think Bran will seek to speak to Sansa and that this action will instigate her eventual journey northwards. 

 

Ducks? Dragons? what now.  Please do tell. 

[Springwatch]

On 06/07/2016 at 7:12 PM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Ducks? Dragons? what now.

There was a thread way back trying to get some message out of Margaery's hawking trip. I think that started the idea that the merlin represents Bran.

How is Bran going to combat winter? He will need the forces of fire - it is highly likely he will try to hijack the three dragons out of the game of thrones and into the north. This seems enough to justify the imagery of a little merlin bringing down three big ducks.

I like this theory because it's simple and probable, but I had another idea to explain the merlin-duck paradox at the time of the old thread.

It could have been a bit of word-play on the phrase 'out for a duck', meaning, in sport, a batsman is dismissed from the field without scoring any points. If true, Sansa could have three betrothed husbands who 'fail to score'. (She probably will, too.) I wish this one was true, but I don't suppose GRRM is much of a cricket fan.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

No, I don't imagine he'll be up with Cricket terminology either. An American Football term yes, I can see him sticking one of them in and it having meaning. But yeah Cricket not so much. 

 

I don't think it is at all obvious that Bran will try to Hijack the dragons, I know this is often assumed as obvious but I don't see it. I'm not even sure the Dragons will make it that far north. I haven't seen any in text quotes which imply they will, or Bran will acquire them.  I hear a lot of people saying Jon will get this dragon or that dragon. But I don't see anything which points to this. Other than him being Rhaegars son. Which I admit is a bigger hint than just assuming Bran will somehow gain one/them.  Tyrion has ties to Viserion, and fAegon taking Rhaegal  chimes with the first dance being between the greens & the blacks. Jon's wolf ties with Viserion's colouring too. But Bran has as far as I am aware nothing to tie him to any of the dragons. 

Is the theory simply based on the readers assumption that the Dragons have to somehow end up being used against the Others? I ask as I'm not familiar with the Duck theory and have always felt people are assuming a lot thinking they will end up being employed against the Others.  Or indeed that they are wargable in any way? 

 

ETA: Full disclosure, I have to admit that I personally really dislike the idea of taking the Merlin away from Sansa. All too often people scrabble to take away any symbolism or evidence of her having any strengths or prowess in any shape or form. And as someone who see's huge strength in her, and who believes she is one of the most interesting and significant characters; I get a bit sick of it.  So by making the symbolism of the Merlin about Bran it feels to me like yet more attempts to write her out of the story as in anyway significant or having any active role in the outcome.  And obviously as I have my own theory regarding the Merlin, which does fit with her, and works thematically with her story arc and character development I am somewhat invested in it. I am a fan of keeping the things about Sansa as being about Sansa rather than trying to off them onto other, popularly seen as more important characters. 

[Ashes Of Westeros]

No other person gets so much hate or love as Sansa. There is no middle ground. I used to dislike her at the beginning but she's one of the characters who changed a lot and we still don/t know where she is going. Many readers an viewers can't forgive her because of Ned. But she learned fast from her mistakes and was capable of decisive moves:

Spoiler

Sansa was about to kill Joffrey when he made her look at Ned's head, but the Hound stepped in and nothing happened.

I see Sansa contributing the downfall of LF and probably becoming a matriarch of the North. Because someone has to care about things when Jon is busy fighting the Others, Arya - with killing those who betrayed family, Bran being beyond the Wall and Rickon being a child.

[Springwatch]

@AshesOfWesteros  Welcome to the forum! I agree with you, mostly. The skills Sansa's learning - diplomacy, political savvy - would serve her well as a matriarch. The talents of her brothers and sister are developing in other directions, but I'm certain the pack will reunite to survive winter - and each will fight in their own way.

[Quyen Thuy Tran]

On June 21, 2016 at 7:28 AM, Sansa's lemon cakes said:

To be honest I do not care who she ends up with or where geographically, just as long as she isn't dead. Even if she ends up with say, Tyrion (my big NOTP) I'd just be relieved that she'd have made it through alive. 

I think Sansa will definitely live. She might become queen in the north or lady of Winterfell. She might be queen on the IT through marriage too. I don't see that she will die. Sansa is the kind of character that I can bet 99% that she will live. 

[Winter's Cold]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

@AshesOfWesteros  Welcome to the forum! I agree with you, mostly. The skills Sansa's learning - diplomacy, political savvy - would serve her well as a matriarch. The talents of her brothers and sister are developing in other directions, but I'm certain the pack will reunite to survive winter - and each will fight in their own way.

She would make a terrible matriarch but a good diplomat or advisor.

[BricksAndSparrows]

Her role... hmmm. Do you mean, what she is going to do? or what will happen to her?

I would say that she is an absolute catch for Littlefinger. She simultaneously fulfills the desires of the boy he was, (her appearance,) and the man she has become (he claim.)

So I think Petyr is grooming her. He's teaching her to connive and lie. But she's a tricky piece of work, because he will need to have her securely under his thumb. But she is growing beyond the timid girl from aCoK...

 

[Springwatch]

12 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I don't think it is at all obvious that Bran will try to Hijack the dragons, I know this is often assumed as obvious but I don't see it. I'm not even sure the Dragons will make it that far north. I haven't seen any in text quotes which imply they will, or Bran will acquire them.  I hear a lot of people saying Jon will get this dragon or that dragon. But I don't see anything which points to this. Other than him being Rhaegars son. Which I admit is a bigger hint than just assuming Bran will somehow gain one/them.  Tyrion has ties to Viserion, and fAegon taking Rhaegal  chimes with the first dance being between the greens & the blacks. Jon's wolf ties with Viserion's colouring too. But Bran has as far as I am aware nothing to tie him to any of the dragons.

Is the theory simply based on the readers assumption that the Dragons have to somehow end up being used against the Others? I ask as I'm not familiar with the Duck theory and have always felt people are assuming a lot thinking they will end up being employed against the Others.  Or indeed that they are wargable in any way? 

Dragons are fire made flesh, and fire magic was strengthened when dragons returned - so yes, I did assume they fly north to combat the supernatural cold at 'the heart of winter', where humans can't survive. Somehow I can't see any Stark riding a dragon or owning a dragon - as you say, there's not much in the text to support it, not like there is for Tyrion.

We do get references to a "winged wolf": Bran repeatedly (Jojen: "You are the winged wolf, Bran."), Sansa in the she-turned-into-a-wolf-with-bat-wings rumour, and Arya just wishing she could turn into a wolf with wings. It could mean birds, but why? - there was no foreshadowing for Arya's cat, or Bran with Hodor.

I'm not sure what it does mean - direct warging would be incredibly risky considering the way an animal's characteristics leak over into the mind of a skinchanger.

All I'm sure of is that Bran, Arya and Sansa will work as a team.

(There is no Duck Theory, alas, only a Duck-Merlin Anomaly, and any Duck Conjectures you care to come up with.)

13 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

ETA: Full disclosure, I have to admit that I personally really dislike the idea of taking the Merlin away from Sansa. All too often people scrabble to take away any symbolism or evidence of her having any strengths or prowess in any shape or form. And as someone who see's huge strength in her, and who believes she is one of the most interesting and significant characters; I get a bit sick of it.  So by making the symbolism of the Merlin about Bran it feels to me like yet more attempts to write her out of the story as in anyway significant or having any active role in the outcome.  And obviously as I have my own theory regarding the Merlin, which does fit with her, and works thematically with her story arc and character development I am somewhat invested in it. I am a fan of keeping the things about Sansa as being about Sansa rather than trying to off them onto other, popularly seen as more important characters. 

A fair point. Sansa is a warg too, the magical name of Merlin fits her just as well.

[BeeStark]

MY prediction is that she'll die... because GRRM

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

10 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Dragons are fire made flesh, and fire magic was strengthened when dragons returned - so yes, I did assume they fly north to combat the supernatural cold at 'the heart of winter', where humans can't survive. Somehow I can't see any Stark riding a dragon or owning a dragon - as you say, there's not much in the text to support it, not like there is for Tyrion.

We do get references to a "winged wolf": Bran repeatedly (Jojen: "You are the winged wolf, Bran."), Sansa in the she-turned-into-a-wolf-with-bat-wings rumour, and Arya just wishing she could turn into a wolf with wings. It could mean birds, but why? - there was no foreshadowing for Arya's cat, or Bran with Hodor.

I'm not sure what it does mean - direct warging would be incredibly risky considering the way an animal's characteristics leak over into the mind of a skinchanger.

All I'm sure of is that Bran, Arya and Sansa will work as a team.

(There is no Duck Theory, alas, only a Duck-Merlin Anomaly, and any Duck Conjectures you care to come up with.)

A fair point. Sansa is a warg too, the magical name of Merlin fits her just as well.

I think it is debatable that Fire Magic grew in strength when dragons returned. I'm personally more inclined to think that Dragons were able to return because ALL Magic was growing in strength. I think the magic runs in Cycles and that they are entering a cycle in which magic is strong again, that this has enabled Dany to hatch the dragons and for the Others to gain enough strength to return. Now do you need one to fight the other? Maybe, maybe now. The Dragons were an after thought in the story, but of course have become a major element. 

How do we know Humans can't survive in the heart of Winter? by which I'm thinking you must be meaning the spot Bran saw in his vision, which is somewhere in the lands of always winter? yes. We know this is where the Others are living, but does that mean a human automatically can not exist there? What evidence? I think it may in fact be where Benjen is. And besides they (The Others) are coming south, maybe Humans don't need to travel there in order to destroy the Others. 

I'd like to look at those wing references you point out. 

Bran, as we know flies within the ravens. He flew when he had his dream in which he saw his mother, his sisters, Jon and the heart of winter, he has a reason to be named the Winged Wolf. The name indicates his Greenseer powers. 

Sansa, this one is fascinating. The smallfolk gave her this description, and it speaks of witchcraft, the idea she turned into an animal, a hybrid of a wolf, clearly her Stark heritage at the fore with this one. And  Bat? is it as some suspect down to her Whent grandmother? Seems a bit too specific for smallfolk, who do not get the education which Maesters give the nobles about heritages and house lineages. Is it a generic "darkness" reference? in our own world Bats are strongly associated with the Occult. And could GRRM simply be borrowing that association in order to imply the smallfolk thinking of Sansa as some sorceress? Is it to further drive home the wings connection with Sansa? I think not as in that case surely she'd have been a hybrid of a Wolf and a bird. Her winged association is most definitely bird not bat. 

I don't recall the passage where Arya wishes to be a wolf with wings, I apologise. I wish I could and so I could further discuss this interesting point with you. Sorry. 

Ah! But the Cat is foreshadowed. Arya becomes Cat of the Canals, a reference to her mother yes. Of course. But she does embody the characteristics of a feral cat in many ways whilst in this role. She slinks through the streets largely un-noted. She does a very Cat like thing in ingratiating herself into the brothel, seeking warmth and company in return she provides something they want too. Cat's have an amazing ability to slink into your home and establish themselves don't they. lol. 

In the Red Keep she chased Cats. Seeking to focus herself enough to become invisible enough to catch them. 

And in the House of Black & White she befriended the Cat whom she skinchanged, indeed she was imo only able to do this at all because she had befriended him. Whilst working in the kitchen as part of her duties she pets the cat, he slinks purring round her legs begging for scraps, which she gives him. 

Hodor? Hmm. Yeah not so much foreshadowed I agree. But symbolic of Brans strength as a warg, and of his naivety , he see's no wrong in slipping into his servant whenever he wishes. He uses him to experience the use of legs once more. I think he's too young to grasp what he is doing to Hodor. He knows he doesn't like it. But carries on anyway. 

 

I agree they will be a team, their pack will reunite as Winter descends and they will each bring their individual skill set to that team.