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Another theory about the resurrection (SPOILERS for TWOW and DoD)


Orangeblood

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Based on rumors that Shireen is indeed going to get burnt, I was thinking two things (these may have already been put out there but I haven't seen them yet):

1) What if Shireen's sacrifice resurrects Jon?

2) What if that resurrection* was not the intended consequence? 

I'm a bit doubtful since it doesn't square with the show, but I like the idea of Mel trying to raise Stannis or transform him or whatever into Azor and instead Jon wakes up (Melly Mel might actually figure it out then too). 

Only death may pay for life and George loves unintended consequences. Anyway eager to know what you Watchers think (show, book, or both) :)

* (putting Jon's consciousness back in his body from Ghost)

 

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I also suspect that if someone burns Shireen it will be someone from Melisandre's camp, maybe even Selyse herself and it would be to resurrect Stannis. Of course magic doesn't follow the rules so anything can happen as a result, but Jon and Ghost belong to the old gods, so I don't think fire magic would suffice.

Another possibility is that she will be killed because of the greyscale either by wildlings or by someone else because she will became real danger for other people.

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2 hours ago, Orangeblood said:

What do you think about the idea of Jon's resurrection being accidental?

 

Well for one I don't believe he is actually dead in the books, so I don't think a resurrection is necessary. I also think the concept of resurrection in aSoIaF has been overused by this point. I tend to see the multiple incidents (on and off scene) of resurrection throughout as a misleading plot device. Not necessarily the traditional red herring, but a means to suggest that a specific incident can and will happen. I don't think those scenes were there to "trick" us, but they certainly function as means to make us feel cozy about Jon. The one constant in all of these moments, is the individual loses a portion of their former self. Robert Strong is the most recent dead man walking, and I am fairly certain that Martin is not going to have Zombie-Jon leading armies. I suppose one could argue, in context of Mel's assertion of her power at the Wall, that in an attempt to resurrect Jon something goes terribly wrong and he rises as the Great Other....There have been a few posters on here who believe Jon will lead the Others. Take from that what you will. 

 

Aside from that, the concept of resurrection has been shoved in our faces, and that alone makes me question the it as a viable option for Jon. If Jon is to be resurrected, it will be because of his importance to endgame (his parentage, etc AA, and that). It seems that for this to really stand out, it has to be different. Only Dany has walked into a pyre and stood with three baby dragons. That scene is powerful (whether you like her character or not) because it happened once. Raising Jon on a funeral pyre would be anti-climatic IMO, because it has already occurred (the idea of resurrection that is). In Dany's example, that scene would fail if it became a regular occurrence. For a moment consider this. Let' say Ned an co. find the direwolves dead (pups and mother), and they burn the bodies to prevent scavengers, or for some other reason. The fire dies down and the pups emerge alive, and then Dany and her dragons endure a similar process. IMO this would make Martin creatively lazy, and while it may take his books too long I don't think this is something we can attribute to him. I could be wrong, but...  For Jon, I think, if he needed to be resurrected, it won't have anything to do with fire or Mel, and Jon's arc has hit a major point of transformation and for it to stand out, it needs to stand alone. 

 

 

 

"I'm a bit doubtful since it doesn't square with the show"

 

I am certainly not one of the posters here who writes the show off as completely different, especially since Martin commented on his blog that S6 will spoil many parts in the books. In this case, however, I think Jon's arc will be entirely different in both mediums. The same with Jon's revelation. In both instances, I think D&D will try and make it possible for Martin to present an untouched version of these scenes....or mostly untouched. 

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13 hours ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

The one constant in all of these moments, is the individual loses a portion of their former self. Robert Strong is the most recent dead man walking, and I am fairly certain that Martin is not going to have Zombie-Jon leading armies.

Totally agree on this and tbh the whole concept of having to lose something in death (I know GRRM mentioned he thought Gandalf coming back better than ever in LOTR was less interesting) is one of the reasons why I'm inclined to agree with you that Jon isn't really dead. Then again, I'd also find it hard to believe that Jon's body at least hadn't been irreparably destroyed after his caesar cosplay. If he was somehow just in critical condition or whatever at this point, I'd be pretty...numb.. :|

 

13 hours ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

Let' say Ned an co. find the direwolves dead (pups and mother), and they burn the bodies to prevent scavengers, or for some other reason. The fire dies down and the pups emerge alive, and then Dany and her dragons endure a similar process.

Speaking of feeling numb...Ned and the direwolves...definitely agree that this would have been lazy/bad storytelling, but...this is the song of Ice and Fire. Dany had her rebirth in the flames but Jon has yet to have been born again. He's a mix of fire and ice so it would stand that his rebirth would mix the two elements (though I'm not suggesting they burn him - he could wake from being frozen).

Moreover my emphasis above was on the accidental/surprise nature of his resurrection (although he gave us clues, GRRM made Dany's ritual look like either vengeance or madness initially). We the readers think Jon is super important (northern conspiracies!), but what if neither Mel, Stannis, nor anyone else with power north of Winterfell cares that much? What if nobody explicitly tries to bring Jon back at all?

Okay I'm going tinfoil-hat for three paragraphs to present a possible WoW scenario so you've been warned.

Nobody trying to bring Jon back makes for great storytelling tension because at least for a while we readers are challenged to accept that Jon is dead-dead and no one is going to do anything to help him (GRRM: "what you were expecting a resurrection?").

Imagine then that quite a few chapters later, the situation at the Wall has become dire. Mel decides that Shireen is Nissa Nissa. Mel convinces Stannis or Selsye to burn their greyscaled daughter and...nothing happens. The dire situation is instead resolved by Stannis et al. getting killed in/near Winterfell and it is definitively clear to any survivors left that Stannis the Mannis is not AA (this kind of explains - though does not excuse - the frankly appalling conclusion of his storyline in the show).

By the end of WoW we've long since moved on to worrying about the probably even more dire situations of all the other characters as their hopes of fighting the Walkers is rapidly reaching 0 degrees celsius. It may be a bit a cliche, but what if it is at that point - near the end of WoW - that we turn the page to see a chapter titled "Jon"? 

I know, I know; what did Jon lose in this whole extra life scenario? Good question and quite frankly I can't think of anything except for maybe Ghost and a fair amount of human civility thanks to his "second life" (if anyone can think of something I'd be impressed/flattered). Again, GRRM was not a fan of the Gandalf-returns-new-and-improved-and-saves-everyone so I agree that this mystery throws a major wrench in the above scenario. I also can't figure out what in the ninth circle of Hell Jon would be able to do if he awoke surrounded by the Others and their minions (perhaps his body is sent to Winterfell, Shireen is sacrificed there and it turns out that Winterfell's name describes it's secret ability as Attewell has theorized in his excellent blog?). 

Like I said, I wouldn't bet money on the above happening, but I do like speculating and talking about new theories and the accidental resurrection of Jon Snow explained above was a possibility I had yet to see discussed.

Responses? Angry responses even?

Ours is the Fury. Bring it on.

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As Ice Turtle said, I believe Jon and Ghost belong to the old gods. I believe Jon will die, and his body will be placed in an ice cell, as Bran saw in one of his visions. I believe Jon will warg into Ghost, as foreshadowed in his multiple wolf dreams, one where Bran is even talking to him from a weirwood tree, trying to get him to open his third eye. Then we have the Varamyr Six-Skins prologue in Dance where Varamyr comments that Jon was a powerful warg, if untested, and that Ghost would be a second life fit for a king, I mean come on. There's also a passage where he touches Ghost and all of his senses become magnified. As well as his last word's after being stabbed to death, being "Ghost". Also, although not related to Jon warging but definitely evidence of his resurrection, there is Jon's dream of him wielding a glowing sword while he is armored in "black-ice" (obsidian?), hacking at the dead who are climbing the wall. Mel's vision in the flames where Jon is a man, a wolf, and then a man again. There's other examples of foreshadowing I'm sure that I just can't think of off the top of my head, but I'm certain whatever mechanism brings Jon back to life, will be tied to old god magic and Bran somehow. 

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What if Mel is unable to resurrect Jon?It would mean either Bran or possibly Val would seem to be his only chance.But the wall is a magical construct-perhaps the walls magic would cause him to resurrect,encased in armor of black ice,The ice preserves-maybe with Bran`s newfound powers the old gods will bring him back.Probably just a nutty theory,but I really don`t want him owing Melisandre anything,and He belongs to the old gods.

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Just a thought: I also do believe Jon and Ghost belong to the old gods and that Bran will most likely play a role. 

I've been thinking: Bran, as a greenseer, can basically see everything that happens/happened/will happen in the world. He has the ability to "travel through time" thanks to his visions. We have also seen that Bran's presence, when training as a seer, can be felt by the people he's observing (Ned seems to be feeling something) and even that Bran can somehow maybe interact with the people he's observing (Theon hears the heart tree say his name). If Bran is part of "the old gods" system and is, therefore, a god who can travel through space-time, who has the power to warg into other human beings/animals, who can know virtually anything: why couldn't he try to interact with Jon to prevent the stabbing? Or maybe his new godlike powers will allow him to undo what has been done and to lead Jon's spirit back from Ghost to Jon's body? 

I was just thinking that Bran's power might prove to be more useful than merely allowing us to see visions of the past, who knows :-) 

I guess this has already been theorized but I haven't been back on the forum in a long while so... I'll look for a similar topic as it'd find super interesting to read other people's opinions :-) !!

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On ‎4‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 0:03 PM, JonisHenryTudor said:

Well for one I don't believe he is actually dead in the books, so I don't think a resurrection is necessary. I also think the concept of resurrection in aSoIaF has been overused by this point. I tend to see the multiple incidents (on and off scene) of resurrection throughout as a misleading plot device. Not necessarily the traditional red herring, but a means to suggest that a specific incident can and will happen. I don't think those scenes were there to "trick" us, but they certainly function as means to make us feel cozy about Jon. The one constant in all of these moments, is the individual loses a portion of their former self. Robert Strong is the most recent dead man walking, and I am fairly certain that Martin is not going to have Zombie-Jon leading armies. I suppose one could argue, in context of Mel's assertion of her power at the Wall, that in an attempt to resurrect Jon something goes terribly wrong and he rises as the Great Other....There have been a few posters on here who believe Jon will lead the Others. Take from that what you will. 

 

Aside from that, the concept of resurrection has been shoved in our faces, and that alone makes me question the it as a viable option for Jon. If Jon is to be resurrected, it will be because of his importance to endgame (his parentage, etc AA, and that). It seems that for this to really stand out, it has to be different. Only Dany has walked into a pyre and stood with three baby dragons. That scene is powerful (whether you like her character or not) because it happened once. Raising Jon on a funeral pyre would be anti-climatic IMO, because it has already occurred (the idea of resurrection that is). In Dany's example, that scene would fail if it became a regular occurrence. For a moment consider this. Let' say Ned an co. find the direwolves dead (pups and mother), and they burn the bodies to prevent scavengers, or for some other reason. The fire dies down and the pups emerge alive, and then Dany and her dragons endure a similar process. IMO this would make Martin creatively lazy, and while it may take his books too long I don't think this is something we can attribute to him. I could be wrong, but...  For Jon, I think, if he needed to be resurrected, it won't have anything to do with fire or Mel, and Jon's arc has hit a major point of transformation and for it to stand out, it needs to stand

I agree that Jon is not dead in the books. I think that he is critically wounded. However, I truly think that Val will play a huge role in his recovery. Otherwise, what is the point of giving her such a prominent role through out the series?

 

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On April 5, 2016 at 2:48 AM, Orangeblood said:

Imagine then that quite a few chapters later, the situation at the Wall has become dire. Mel decides that Shireen is Nissa Nissa. Mel convinces Stannis or Selsye to burn their greyscaled daughter and...nothing happens. The dire situation is instead resolved by Stannis et al. getting killed in/near Winterfell and it is definitively clear to any survivors left that Stannis the Mannis is not AA (this kind of explains - though does not excuse - the frankly appalling conclusion of his storyline in the show).

By the end of WoW we've long since moved on to worrying about the probably even more dire situations of all the other characters as their hopes of fighting the Walkers is rapidly reaching 0 degrees celsius. It may be a bit a cliche, but what if it is at that point - near the end of WoW - that we turn the page to see a chapter titled "Jon"? 

I like this idea. I've always thought it would be interesting (but probably not my first choice) to get rid of Jon POV chapters. We spend the first half of WOW getting used to the fact that Jon is truly dead, then we start getting rumors about a mysterious figure doing amazing things, either near the wall or Winterfell, and eventually learn of Jon's survival/resurrection, sort of the way GRRM let us think Davos was dead for a whole book. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Critically wounded or dead I'm sure we can all agree that any way for him to survive will include magic, there is no maester at the wall and he was stabbed many times.

It's given that when he's dead/injured he will warg Ghost, it's been more than set up. This will probably protect his consciousness from side effects from resurrection (if he is resurrected), ie. he won't become mindless as Ungregor, lose himself slowly as Beric or become a vengeful shade as Cat.

Regarding the resurrection proper, 
1. Fire, i.e. Dondarrion and Stoneheart, this is a possibility as Mel is in close proximity. This is one of the most likely ones as it's been foreshadowed by Mel's visions and was proven to be possible. I agree that it would most likely be unintentional, she would try to raise AA (Stannis in her mind) and end up raising Snow. The sacrifice would have to be Shireen certainly, with Selsey being the main supporter (besides Mel), kingsblood, dragons from stone, it all adds up to a dead Shireen and a living Jon.

2. Ice/CotF, Coldhands, this is really interesting to me, Coldhands is clearly dead, yet he seems to be perfectly preserved, even more so than Berric, if Bloodraven (or an earlier Greenseer) had anything to do with making Coldhands then I suspect Bran could take the same steps with Jon. This would have the added bonus of being a Old God's solution to an Old God's believer, and a person who always aligned with them. Bonus points if the sacrifice of Shireen actually powers this spell and not Mel's (though this would create the question of who was killed to create Coldhands)

3. Ice, the wights, unless the WW resurrect him there is nobody else capable, it could be that it backfires on them by Jon helped by Bran warging his own corpse (maybe this was how Coldhands was made).

4. Dark magic, like Robert Strong, not really a possibility as there's no Qyburn at the wall.

3. Dark magic, Khal Drogo, not really a resurrection, but nearly so, it could work because Jon's intellect is preserved in Ghost, the drawback is that there's nobody at the wall who could do this, maybe Val, but it doesn't seem like her.

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