Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Rickon the badass

Rickon Stark.........

Recommended Posts

Rickon Stark, being the heir to the kingdom of the North and a part of a dynasty that has ruled unbroken for 8000 years in the North is very important in who will win the North. Now this post will be about who will rule the North, Which I think will be Rickon Stark.

 

Rickon is going to be important. If he weren't, I suspect they would have completely written him out of the show on HBO, but they make a point to have him show up a couple times. They have written out other characters who have done a lot more than Rickon. 

Rickon is interesting at the moment he's only around six, so it doesn't look like he will have much of an impact except as a pawn. 

 However, this winter should be one of the longest winters ever  if defeating the Others doesn't end it early. That means that it could last for nearly 10 years, giving him plenty of time to mature before ADOS ends. 

 I also like to think that being raised by Osha may actually be a good thing. Osha seems like a decent person; after all, she's risking her life for a family she has no connection to, except for being their prisoner. And, in their own way, wildings have  a strong code of honor, something that Rickon can benefit from learning; especially as the North now has a large wilding population. 

 I'd also like to point out that Skagos could be completely different than thought.  After all, how often are rumors correct in ASOIAF? I think they will actually end up having a relatively proud and civilized culture. In my mind, Rickon will actually have a strong, independent personality. He'll likely also have  a lot of respect and love for the small folk, as he was essentially raised as a peasant. He could be the perfect Lord of Winterfell or not....

 

Rickon, though, has had his entire family taken from him, his home burnt to the ground. maybe he will be without compassion.

As with all of the other Stark Children, Rickon is a warg. It is unknown how powerful a warg Rickon really is. He does have a strong bond with Shaggydog as shown by their similar traits such as wild and generally angry.

 

People don’t usually mention this, but the are very traditional First Men and keep a lot of the savage old ways. It’s mentioned more than once in ADWD that the First Men gave human sacrifices to the Weirwoods Skagosi as a part of the Pact. Bran will soon be able to speak whole messages through the ravens as used to be done. Imagine what the Skagosi will think once they learn that Rickon’s brother is a god-like greenseer of the old gods they worship. He’s basically their god-king.

 Rickon himself is a warg, has a savage direwolf, and is maybe wild enough to charm them in a “YOUR MEAT IS BLOODY TOUGH” sort of way.


One of the main reasons that the Mountain Clans decide to fight and go rescue “Arya” from Ramsay is that they really have nothing to lose. Normally the young and the women would go to seek refuge in Winterfell’s winter town. That obviously isn’t option anymore. It’s either fight or freeze and starve to death in the mountains. Their numbers are comparatively small, probably 2500 men, maybe more with spearwives. 


The Skagosi are basically in the same position. They could (maybe rather forcefully if need be) hitch a ride with him and make a mess of the Stark’s enemies, rampaging their way south to wherever there is a refuge. They get a shot at survival, and the gratitude of a legendary house to boot.

This is kind of hinted at with Shaggydog's eye color. We learn in the books that the prophetically gifted among the Children of the Forest have either green or red eyes. Jojen Reed has green eyes when he develops his sight. The Ghost of High Heart has red eyes. Shaggydog's eyes are green. (And Ghost's eyes are red; Jon also has what could be called prophetic dreams in the books, but it's unclear if these are greendreams associated with him being a warg, or dragon dreams associated with him being a Targaryen, or both.)


Personality traits: What is known about Rickon is that like his dire wolf Shaggydog, he is described as wild, partly due to the majority of his family ‘abandoning’ him. while they didn't necessarily abandon him, to the eyes of a young kid it might seem likely.


 As with all of the other Stark Children, Rickon is a warg. As he hasn't shown any real signs of warging or had a PoV chapter in which he does, it is unknown how powerful a warg Rickon really is. He does have a strong bond with Shaggydog as shown by their similar traits such as wild and generally angry.

Direwolf Name: The name of Rickon’s dire wolf is Shaggydog and while this may just seem like a possible name a child would give a pet, there is most likely more to this name. For starters, it is a possible reference to a Shaggy Dog Story aka a story with a big build up but an anticlimactic ending. While this may mean that ultimately Rickon’s storyline will have an anticlimactic ending I prefer to think of it as the opposite.
It is unlikely that Rickon’s story will be a Shaggy Dog Story , at the current point in time he has had very little story devoted to him and many people forget about him, considering him to be useless. This is one of the main reason I think Shaggydog’s name means the opposite, that Rickon will have little build up but have a big role to play later on.
It is possible that all the direwolves names have an opposite meaning.

Lady: While Sansa was initially considered an innocent lady, her involvement in the Game of Thrones has turned her into a manipulative player of the game.

Nymeria: For those who don’t know, Nymeria was named after a queen. This could be seen as foreshadowing Arya losing who she is and becoming no-one, the opposite of a queen.

Summer: Summer’s name could possibly hint at Bran having a major role during the war with the White Walkers and Winter.

Ghost: Could  mean he will wander around as a body with no soul, a possible result of a failed attempt at recreating Beric Dondarrion or he becomes a White Walker. this would mean he will be a body with no soul instead of a soul with no body(ghost)

Grey Wind: Currently unsure 

Direwolf Colour: Shaggydog has black fur and green eyes which are opposite to Ghost who has white fur and red eyes. The other four direwolves are grey fur with yellow/gold eyes. These 4 can be seen as a middle ground of the two with grey being between Black and White and Gold/Yellow being between Green and Red.
The black could also be a reference to a Black Sheep of the pack as Rickon’s wild nature could be seen as an outlier to the rest of the usually calm Starks(besides maybe Arya.)
Catelyn’s uncle Brynden Tully is known as the Brynden the Blackfish because he was unlike the rest of t tullys meaning that Rickon could be Rickon the Blackwolf.

7 Starks, 7 Gods: According to this the seven Starks (poor Jon) have traits relating to each of the seven gods in the Faith of the Seven.

The Father - Ned

The Mother - Cat

The Warrior - Robb

The Maid - Sansa

The Stranger - Arya

The Crone - Bran

 The Smith - Rickon to fix everything in spring.

In this, Rickon is associated with The Smith mostly because all the other Starks line up well with their respective god.The Smith is associated with crafting and labour and in the Song of the Seven, “put the world of men to right.” While this might not sound like Rickon at the present time it could foretell his rise to power and his role in fixing Westeros and the North after the White Walkers are defeated. With these things in mind, Rickon Stark could steal the title of King of the North from Bran and then use his power, to fix Westeros.

Role Models: at the end of a Dance with Dragons Davos has set out to retrieve Rickon from Skagos, whose inhabitants are known for living by old laws and being cannibals and savages. This leaves Rickon with a few possible mentors.

 Osha: She has been with him since they departed Winterfell, as a wildling, Osha will have some unusual views on life and will mostly bring out a wild side of Rickon. She will be the closest to a mother figure he has right now (unless someone else on the island is) and will most likely influence Rickon to accept the Wildlings.

Davos: As stated, Davos is heading to pick up Rickon. Davos will most likely treat Rickon as a son as he has lost a lot of his natural sons during the series and so will take the role of Rickon’s father and possible Regent. Throughout the series, Davos has been studying and learning various skills such as reading and writing in order to be a better hand for Stannis, but what if this wasn't the main reason for this. Davos being the father figure for Rickon will help him learn about the various cultures and events that Davos has learnt about and Davos may be able to help Rickon develop his reading and writing skills. (it is stated that he cannot read during Tyrion III,Game of Thrones)
Skagosi: From the Skagosi, Rickon could learn some of the old customs of the First Men as well as embrace his wild side. By doing so he will be better prepared for the Long Winter because the Ancient Stark Kings had to be strong in order to survive.

 

Bran: If you are reading this you will know that Bran now has the ability to communicate via weir wood trees. Using this method, Bran will be able to communicate and mentor Rickon on various things. He will be able to assist Rickon in fully realising his warging ability which will be a great advantage during wars. He might be able to use the army of wolves Nymeria has assembled to its full potential.

 

So basically Rickon= Paul Atreises the northern Muad'Dib

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You clearly know Bran is alive and well in all of this, so why would the throne not go to the oldest surviving male Stark, Bran? You point out that he has god-like powers, Bran is shown to be sensible and level headed, and he even has limited experience ruling. There is literally nothing that says or implies that Bran will have to stay under a tree for the rest of his life. To go full crackpot, he's also named after Bran the Builder, who is also depicted as a cripple. Bran is the Stark to rebuild the wall, Winterfell, the Starks and the North. Also, the Starks are famous for their honour and doing the right thing. Rickon knows Bran is alive and would not steal his throne in the same way that Jon Snow would not, nor Bran to Rob when he was alive.

So why not Bran?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Apple the Great said:

You clearly know Bran is alive and well in all of this, so why would the throne not go to the oldest surviving male Stark, Bran? You point out that he has god-like powers, Bran is shown to be sensible and level headed, and he even has limited experience ruling. There is literally nothing that says or implies that Bran will have to stay under a tree for the rest of his life. 

 

Surprisingly a lot of posters (at least there were) are certain that Bran is forever stuck in a tree....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

Surprisingly a lot of posters (at least there were) are certain that Bran is forever stuck in a tree....

I know, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/12/2016 at 5:40 PM, Apple the Great said:

I know, right?

That is because he is never leaving the tree. He will end up like the three eyed bloodraven. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Osha and Rickon's relationship will be important in solidifying what Jon started with House Thenn, trying to make a place for the Wildlings in the North. I don't see Rickon or Jon ruling Winterfell without Osha or Tormund in a position of power either. I'm very curious to see what the relations the North and Wildlings have post/Boltons. There's also the Mormont/Tormund theory. Do we know of any Houses other than Umber that are severely Anti-Wildling? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whether Bran leaves the tree or not is irrelavent 

from a dynastic point of view, Bran who will never father children is a dead end, 

Rikon and his heirs are the future of the leadership of the north, tho for now he's going to be used as the Mandalays have shown as a figurehead for the north to rally around and boot out the Boltons, only question is who will be pulling the strings, The Mandalays, Stannis, The Umbers, Lord Snow, Sansa, The Moremonts or another Northern House

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/13/2016 at 6:47 PM, Dorian Martell said:

That is because he is never leaving the tree. He will end up like the three eyed bloodraven. 

Where is the proof? Or do you mean he'll end up like BR in that he'll have a long and active life, travelling the world, effectively ruling the seven kingdoms, acting in the interests of the realm, before he retires to live under a tree?

On 4/15/2016 at 9:27 AM, SynthFG said:

Whether Bran leaves the tree or not is irrelavent 

from a dynastic point of view, Bran who will never father children is a dead end, 

Rikon and his heirs are the future of the leadership of the north, tho for now he's going to be used as the Mandalays have shown as a figurehead for the north to rally around and boot out the Boltons, only question is who will be pulling the strings, The Mandalays, Stannis, The Umbers, Lord Snow, Sansa, The Moremonts or another Northern House

I take your point, though I should say that men paralysed from the waist down can still get erections and can still father children, it's just a lot more difficult. It's unlikely at best that Bran will father children. But that does not mean he will or would be cut out of the line of succession. Especially in the North, especially for House Stark - I mean come on! Ned is the most honourable person in Westeros! - people would not just cut someone out of the succession illegally. Ned would not do it to Stannis, and I don't think many of his bannermen would, for honour's sake. Not only that but Manderly also remembers exactly what the Starks have done for them, and as the popular northern saying goes, "the North remembers" - so do you really think they would sideline the rightful and legitimate heir of the North for expediency? If Rickon is seen to be alive, after people think he and Bran were both burned alive, do you not think that people will start asking whether Bran is also really dead still? Do you not think that if Ned Stark's oldest living male heir is still alive, he is whom the people will want as their leader? I grant you that Rickon and his heirs may well continue the line, but he and they will have to wait their turn. No one seems to discount Willas Tyrell on the grounds of him being a cripple, I imagine the fiercely loyal bannermen of the Starks will support Bran still.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Apple the Great said:

Where is the proof? Or do you mean he'll end up like BR in that he'll have a long and active life, travelling the world, effectively ruling the seven kingdoms, acting in the interests of the realm, before he retires to live under a tree?

the proof is in bloodraven, who although he lived a very active and big life ruling the seven kingdoms before he went in the tree, he is in the tree now and he isn't leaving. there is no reason for a boy without functioning legs who is bonding with a tree to ever "leave."   Get it? "Leave?" 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

the proof is in bloodraven, who although he lived a very active and big life ruling the seven kingdoms before he went in the tree, he is in the tree now and he isn't leaving. there is no reason for a boy without functioning legs who is bonding with a tree to ever "leave."   Get it? "Leave?" 

That's not proof, that's an opinion. Just like it's not proof to the contrary if I say there is no reason for Bran to stay under the tree because he hasn't seen much of the world.

But you say so yourself in the parts that I've made bold. BR was old when Maester Aemon joined the NW. He needs to be in the tree to prolong his life. Bran does not need to be in a tree to prolong his life. Bran is 10 years old. Bran, before his fall wanted to be the greatest knight in the Kingsguard. Bran has a crush on Meera. If you think that Bran is just going to want to sit under a tree for the next 200 years as he becomes part of a tree, maybe you need to think about what you were like at 10 years old. This is not proof, this is opinion, but in the absence of any proof that Bran has to stay under the tree, I don't believe he has to or that he will want to.

Also, nice pun. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the topic of Bran staying in the tree...  Bloodraven merged with the tree to prolong his lifetime, so that he would live to teach bran the ways of the Old Gods. 

This means that bran can do whatever he likes. The adventurous Bran we know would never stay in one hole his whole life knowing he could go wherever he wanted. I think he will go back to winterfell after "the long night" to claim his birthright. He is the eldest surviving son of Lord Eddard Stark and King Robb Starks heir. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Apple the Great said:

That's not proof, that's an opinion. Just like it's not proof to the contrary if I say there is no reason for Bran to stay under the tree because he hasn't seen much of the world.

It is backed up with text in the book. We have an example in the books. The last Greenseer is at the end of his life, locked in a tree. His replacement who cannot walk is being taught where? in a tree.  You can say whatever you want, but Bran is never leaving the tree. 

11 minutes ago, Apple the Great said:

But you say so yourself in the parts that I've made bold. BR was old when Maester Aemon joined the NW. He needs to be in the tree to prolong his life. Bran does not need to be in a tree to prolong his life. Bran is 10 years old. Bran, before his fall wanted to be the greatest knight in the Kingsguard. Bran has a crush on Meera. If you think that Bran is just going to want to sit under a tree for the next 200 years as he becomes part of a tree, maybe you need to think about what you were like at 10 years old. This is not proof, this is opinion, but in the absence of any proof that Bran has to stay under the tree, I don't believe he has to or that he will want to. 

Bloodraven wasn't old when he went to the wall, he was just older than Aemon.  While the life extending aspect of the tree is important, it is only a part of the story. The point of being joined to the tree is to extend your power. Bran may be 10 and in good health aside from his legs, but he is still a n00b greenseer. The Trees are the literal connection to the knowledge of everything/everyone that came before him.  Yes he can skinchange without the tree, but the weirwoods let him look into the past, look out to the world around him and see things he would never be able to see, even with his third eye. They are far more important than just extending mortal life 
Yes, Bran has a crush on Meera, but Bran does not function below his waist, and he is 10. By the time he hits puberty, he will be several years in the tree, making it that much more unlikely he will leave, whether he wants to or not. This was foreshadowed in AGOT. Bran realized he will never be the Knight he dreamed of. Knights are the symbol and epitome of manhood in the books.  

14 hours ago, Apple the Great said:

Also, nice pun. 

Thank you 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

It is backed up with text in the book. We have an example in the books. The last Greenseer is at the end of his life, locked in a tree. His replacement who cannot walk is being taught where? in a tree.  You can say whatever you want, but Bran is never leaving the tree. 

It does not say anywhere in the book that he has to stay under the tree. BR is under the tree and he is being taught under a tree, yes. You can infer from that whatever you want, but there is no solid proof that Bran has to or will stay under a tree.
 

7 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

Bloodraven wasn't old when he went to the wall, he was just older than Aemon.  While the life extending aspect of the tree is important, it is only a part of the story. The point of being joined to the tree is to extend your power. Bran may be 10 and in good health aside from his legs, but he is still a n00b greenseer. The Trees are the literal connection to the knowledge of everything/everyone that came before him.  Yes he can skinchange without the tree, but the weirwoods let him look into the past, look out to the world around him and see things he would never be able to see, even with his third eye. They are far more important than just extending mortal life 

You admit it yourself, that BR is there to extend his lifespan. When Brynden joined the NW he was 57-58. Not very old by modern standards, but old by Westerosi standard, it's quite old. I don't think there's a way of knowing, but certainly Bran does not need the tree to access visions (ADwD, ch. 34), seeing far into the past, so perhaps Bran is stronger than Brynden. I think Bran will stay under the tree while learning from BR, but after that he will emerge, and he will be able to use his third eye whenever he wants.

 

7 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

Yes, Bran has a crush on Meera, but Bran does not function below his waist, and he is 10. By the time he hits puberty, he will be several years in the tree, making it that much more unlikely he will leave, whether he wants to or not. This was foreshadowed in AGOT. Bran realized he will never be the Knight he dreamed of. Knights are the symbol and epitome of manhood in the books. 

Bran realises that he will never be a knight, and thinks that a life of fame, glory and honour has been taken away from him. He now has this remarkable power to achieve fame, glory and honour - influence beyond anything he'd imagined growing up as a younger son of the Warden of the North. Bran is an intelligent boy, and like all Starks has a sense of honour and duty. He will know that there needs to be a Stark in Winterfell and it is his duty. He will also realise that with his powers, he could very well be the key to the North's survival and power. This will all serve to bring him out from under the tree.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Apple the Great said:

It does not say anywhere in the book that he has to stay under the tree. BR is under the tree and he is being taught under a tree, yes. You can infer from that whatever you want, but there is no solid proof that Bran has to or will stay under a tree.

And there is no "solid" evidence that he will leave the cave, and since we have circumstantial evidence that leads to him staying and zero that leads to him leaving, we can safely go with him never leaving the tree.

4 hours ago, Apple the Great said:

You admit it yourself, that BR is there to extend his lifespan. When Brynden joined the NW he was 57-58. Not very old by modern standards, but old by Westerosi standard, it's quite old. I don't think there's a way of knowing, but certainly Bran does not need the tree to access visions (ADwD, ch. 34), seeing far into the past, so perhaps Bran is stronger than Brynden. I think Bran will stay under the tree while learning from BR, but after that he will emerge, and he will be able to use his third eye whenever he wants.

We do not know how old BR was when he joined the watch. He could be as young as 40. His nephew was a child, his other nephew had recently gained his chain. You seem to ignore the part where life extension is one small aspect of the weirwood tree. Weirnet, weirstorage and weirplayer are all major aspects of greensight, in addition to weirlife extensions.
Bran does need the tree to access his visions. when he talks to Jon north of the wall, jon is in ghost and ghost is next to a weirwood tree. and bran is in close proximity to the heart tree. 
Most of his time visions happen after he eats the weirwood paste, and the purpose of the paste is to bond him to the tree. Again, you can think whatever you want, but one greenseer is stuck in a tree, it is more than reasonable to assume that the other greenseer will never leave.  GRRM speaks of a bittersweet ending. His love for Meera could be a part of that 

4 hours ago, Apple the Great said:

Bran realises that he will never be a knight, and thinks that a life of fame, glory and honour has been taken away from him. He now has this remarkable power to achieve fame, glory and honour - influence beyond anything he'd imagined growing up as a younger son of the Warden of the North. Bran is an intelligent boy, and like all Starks has a sense of honour and duty. He will know that there needs to be a Stark in Winterfell and it is his duty. He will also realise that with his powers, he could very well be the key to the North's survival and power. This will all serve to bring him out from under the tree.

How will he achieve glory and honour? He is a cripple who is going to spend the foreseeable future in a rootball. He will have tremendous influence on westeros. His stark in winterfell days are done. He went north, and aside from sam, literally everyone thinks he is dead. His duty is to help fight the others, even though the hour is late, and he will do that, from a tree. His father eknew he will never be a lord. He will never father children and thus he will never rule. The key to the north's survival is with Stannis and a gravely wounded Jon, and possibly Rickon is davos can keep him alive and get him to Winterfell. Bran will be able to see all of this, from his comfortable perch in a weirwood rootball  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2016 at 11:56 AM, King Rodrik the Wrestler said:

On the topic of Bran staying in the tree...  Bloodraven merged with the tree to prolong his lifetime, so that he would live to teach bran the ways of the Old Gods. 

This means that bran can do whatever he likes. The adventurous Bran we know would never stay in one hole his whole life knowing he could go wherever he wanted. I think he will go back to winterfell after "the long night" to claim his birthright. He is the eldest surviving son of Lord Eddard Stark and King Robb Starks heir. 

I absolutely agree with this. Bloodraven only merged with the tree to prolong his already long life, so that he could stay alive to train the next Greenseer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/20/2016 at 5:08 AM, Dorian Martell said:

And there is no "solid" evidence that he will leave the cave, and since we have circumstantial evidence that leads to him staying and zero that leads to him leaving, we can safely go with him never leaving the tree.

Agreed there is no "solid" evidence either way, I suspect that is as much as we can agree on about this. You can call your speculation circumstantial evidence, if you like, but I will still consider my appraisal of Bran's personality with greater weight than the circumstantial evidence you have given, i.e. he's there now so why do anything else, which I do not find very compelling.

On 4/20/2016 at 5:08 AM, Dorian Martell said:

We do not know how old BR was when he joined the watch. He could be as young as 40. His nephew was a child, his other nephew had recently gained his chain. You seem to ignore the part where life extension is one small aspect of the weirwood tree. Weirnet, weirstorage and weirplayer are all major aspects of greensight, in addition to weirlife extensions.

He was 57/58, we know this because we know the circumstances of him taking the black, as a result of having a Blackfre pretender executed after Maekar I's death in 233. BR was born in 175. I'm not sure what the weirstorage and weirplayer aspects are (do you mean the memories of the trees and the 'playback' of said memories? If that is the case, then it's not that I have ignored these aspects, but given that Bran does not have roots growing through him, then I don't agree that it is necessary for anyone to be 'plugged in' to the weirwood to access these, just having the ability and the weirwood paste to unlock that, and the training to use it, is my impression of how it works. Since there is not enough information given in the books as to how it works, I've not addressed it because I don't know enough about it. Also, it might even be the case that Bran is a lot more powerful than BR, so maybe it is necessary for BR to be 'plugged in' but we've seen with Bran he does not need to be. Since there is not enough information on this, I don't want to weigh in with a firm opinion, and I can only repeat my impression that it is not necessary for Bran to be 'plugged in' based on the visions he saw. Given that BR was known as having 'a thousand eyes and one' well before he joined the NW let alone found himself under a tree, I think it possible that BR was able to use his abilities as well as more conventional means (informants), to give the impression of knowing everything. It's known that House Blackwood worships the Old Gods and have one of the only weirwood trees south of the Neck.

On 4/20/2016 at 5:08 AM, Dorian Martell said:

Again, you can think whatever you want, but one greenseer is stuck in a tree, it is more than reasonable to assume that the other greenseer will never leave.

Agreed, taken by itself, if one Greenseer is stuck in a tree, it would be reasonable to assume that it is necessary and that the other Greenseer will not leave. Except it's possible (I think implied) that BR was able to use his powers before and had a long, healthy and active life before joining the NW and becoming one with the tree. In which case, is it really necessary to be under the tree? A further question for you: is it necessary to be under that specific tree? I think not.

On 4/20/2016 at 5:08 AM, Dorian Martell said:

How will he achieve glory and honour? He is a cripple who is going to spend the foreseeable future in a rootball. He will have tremendous influence on westeros. His stark in winterfell days are done. He went north, and aside from sam, literally everyone thinks he is dead. His duty is to help fight the others, even though the hour is late, and he will do that, from a tree. His father eknew he will never be a lord. He will never father children and thus he will never rule. The key to the north's survival is with Stannis and a gravely wounded Jon, and possibly Rickon is davos can keep him alive and get him to Winterfell. Bran will be able to see all of this, from his comfortable perch in a weirwood rootball 

Just because you say he will become a rootball does not mean he will become a rootball. If Bran does leave the cave, for example with Summer, Hodor, Meera and maybe Jojen, he could earn fame, glory and honour by warging the dragons, playing an instrumental role in defeating the others, restoring order and peace to the North. He could rebuild Winterfell. He could be famous for being just and good. Just because he is a cripple it does not mean he can't do anything. Granted it is unlikely he will never father children but people are not cut from succession due to an inability to father children. Most people don't know he is alive, but Theon, Rickon, Ramsey, Davos and Osha all do. If Rickon is found on Skagos and is shown to be alive, do you really think people will not ask after Bran? Do you think Rickon would lie about his brother? Do you think Davos, a man of principle, would either lie about Bran or fail to inform Stannis the Mannis, who will do the right thing even if it's not the best thing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Apple the Great said:

Agreed, taken by itself, if one Greenseer is stuck in a tree, it would be reasonable to assume that it is necessary and that the other Greenseer will not leave. Except it's possible (I think implied) that BR was able to use his powers before and had a long, healthy and active life before joining the NW and becoming one with the tree. In which case, is it really necessary to be under the tree? A further question for you: is it necessary to be under that specific tree? I think not.

This is the key for me. It is just an opinion but I believe the ONLY reason he merged with the tree was life preservation. Bran is very young and does not need to do this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Apple the Great said:

Agreed there is no "solid" evidence either way, I suspect that is as much as we can agree on about this. You can call your speculation circumstantial evidence, if you like, but I will still consider my appraisal of Bran's personality with greater weight than the circumstantial evidence you have given, i.e. he's there now so why do anything else, which I do not find very compelling.

Bran is 10. His personality changes daily. He is a very likable character, and I can understand why people want something great for him. The "reality" of his situation is that he has no working legs. He and his crew are very far north of the wall, where every dead body rises to become a killer. The ancient enemy has returned to bring the long night. There is no food between the CTOF cave and the wall, and the one beast of burden that took them part of the way has been pooped out of them quite some time ago. So in addition to bran, we have an undead ranger, a sullen teenage boy, a small teenage girl and a giant simpleton. Since they almost died enroute to the cave, what are the chances of them returning, sans food, with white walkers and wights following at their heels? When you combine this with the Greenseer in a tree, it makes far more sense to stay. The author rarely gives us the happy end we want for beloved characters. 

Here is a Quote from Dance:
“What will I know?” Bran asked the Reeds afterward, when they came with torches burning brightly in their hand, to carry him back to a small chamber off the big cavern where the singers had made beds for them to sleep. “What do the trees remember?”
“The secrets of the old gods,” said Jojen Reed. Food and fire and rest had helped restore him after the ordeals of their journey, but he seemed sadder now, sullen, with a weary, haunted look about the eyes. “Truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell … but not in the wet wild. We live closer to the green in our bogs and crannogs, and we remember. Earth and water, soil and stone, oaks and elms and willows, they were here before us all and will still remain when we are gone.”
“So will you,” said Meera. That made Bran sad. What if I don’t want to remain when you are gone? he almost asked, but he swallowed the words unspoken. He was almost a man grown, and he did not want Meera to think he was some weepy babe. “Maybe you could be greenseers too,” he said instead.
“No, Bran.” Now Meera sounded sad.
“It is given to a few to drink of that green fountain whilst still in mortal flesh, to hear the whisperings of the leaves and see as the trees see, as the gods see,” said Jojen. “Most are not so blessed. The gods gave me only greendreams. My task was to get you here. My part in this is done.”

Here is another:
“The singers made Bran a throne of his own, like the one Lord Brynden sat, white weirwood flecked with red, dead branches woven through living roots. They placed it in the great cavern by the abyss, where the black air echoed to the sound of running water far below. Of soft grey moss they made his seat. Once he had been lowered into place, they covered him with warm furs.”

And Another:
“ He even crossed the slender stone bridge that arched over the abyss and discovered more passages and chambers on the far side. One was full of singers, enthroned like Brynden in nests of weirwood roots that wove under and through and around their bodies. Most of them looked dead to him, but as he crossed in front of them their eyes would open and follow the light of his torch, and one of them opened and closed a wrinkled mouth as if he were trying to speak. “Hodor,” Bran said to him, and he felt the real Hodor stir down in his pit.”
The Tree throne is not unique to Brynden. It is in fact Bran's future

14 hours ago, Apple the Great said:

He was 57/58, we know this because we know the circumstances of him taking the black, as a result of having a Blackfre pretender executed after Maekar I's death in 233. BR was born in 175. I'm not sure what the weirstorage and weirplayer aspects are (do you mean the memories of the trees and the 'playback' of said memories? If that is the case, then it's not that I have ignored these aspects, but given that Bran does not have roots growing through him, then I don't agree that it is necessary for anyone to be 'plugged in' to the weirwood to access these, just having the ability and the weirwood paste to unlock that, and the training to use it, is my impression of how it works. Since there is not enough information given in the books as to how it works, I've not addressed it because I don't know enough about it. Also, it might even be the case that Bran is a lot more powerful than BR, so maybe it is necessary for BR to be 'plugged in' but we've seen with Bran he does not need to be. Since there is not enough information on this, I don't want to weigh in with a firm opinion, and I can only repeat my impression that it is not necessary for Bran to be 'plugged in' based on the visions he saw. Given that BR was known as having 'a thousand eyes and one' well before he joined the NW let alone found himself under a tree, I think it possible that BR was able to use his abilities as well as more conventional means (informants), to give the impression of knowing everything. It's known that House Blackwood worships the Old Gods and have one of the only weirwood trees south of the Neck.

 You are correct about The three eyed crew's age. The Weirstorage and weirplayback are the tree memories. Yes, Bran and Brynden both had magical abilities before entering the CTOF cave and becoming part of the tree, but if the tree plays no role other than being a heart and lung machine, why even have bran take the epic and dangerous journey north of the wall through killer,  demon and undead infested lands. Why not just teach bran through dreams in the winterfell crypts if he is so powerful and does not need a tree? Saying bran "might" be more powerful than brynden so he doesn't need the tree is at best wishful thinking on your part based on your love of the character 

14 hours ago, Apple the Great said:

Agreed, taken by itself, if one Greenseer is stuck in a tree, it would be reasonable to assume that it is necessary and that the other Greenseer will not leave. Except it's possible (I think implied) that BR was able to use his powers before and had a long, healthy and active life before joining the NW and becoming one with the tree. In which case, is it really necessary to be under the tree? A further question for you: is it necessary to be under that specific tree? I think not.

It isn't just one greenseer, it is the Singers of the children as well. See the quote above. Bloodraven and Bran used their powers before they went to the cave, but they were untrained and raw, like Arya and the cat.  As for a specific tree, seeing as how every weirwood is connected then no, but as stated above, the journey home is nigh impossible, so bran will be staying. 

14 hours ago, Apple the Great said:

Just because you say he will become a rootball does not mean he will become a rootball. If Bran does leave the cave, for example with Summer, Hodor, Meera and maybe Jojen, he could earn fame, glory and honour by warging the dragons, playing an instrumental role in defeating the others, restoring order and peace to the North. He could rebuild Winterfell. He could be famous for being just and good. Just because he is a cripple it does not mean he can't do anything. Granted it is unlikely he will never father children but people are not cut from succession due to an inability to father children. Most people don't know he is alive, but Theon, Rickon, Ramsey, Davos and Osha all do. If Rickon is found on Skagos and is shown to be alive, do you really think people will not ask after Bran? Do you think Rickon would lie about his brother? Do you think Davos, a man of principle, would either lie about Bran or fail to inform Stannis the Mannis, who will do the right thing even if it's not the best thing?

Once again, everything in the books points to him never leaving the cave. So what if Rickon and Osha and Davos all agree that Bran was alive when he separated from Osha and Rickon, he still went north of the wall, and it is all bad north of the wall, full of killers, undead killers and supernatural demon killers.  Yes it is a fantasy novel so everything is possible, but Bran would still have to make the journey, something he is ill equipped to do. So, the battle, and the dragons will have to come to him. So far, everything I have read in the novels so far points to the stark folk making huge personal sacrifices.  Sansa lost her wolf to protect Joff.  Arya lost herself to learn revenge. Rickon lost his family and possibly who he is. Robb lost his life for his kingdom, and Bran's sacrifice will be staying in the cave.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I 100% agree with Dorian Martell (not that it matters but... :P)! 

Everything hints at the fact Bran will never leave the cave imo. He is the new greenseer and it seems their presence in that cave beyond the Wall is essential (otherwise, why would BR have settled in the cave, watching Bran from the moment he was born, and why would they be impatiently waiting for the new greenseer to arrive and save the day). 

But beyond these considerations, there is also Bran's personal interest to consider: if he goes back to Winterfell, he could be the heir of House Stark but he knows for a fact that: he will likely never have any descendance and the House will therefore automatically pass to one of his surviving siblings at some point. He will never be the knight he aspired to be, as he is now a cripple. He will basically always have to rely on other people to be able to lead some sort of "normal" life and it is likely he won't be able to travel much. 

On the other hand, Bran staying in the cave in communion with the old gods basically means he is omniscient. He will be able to virtually live a thousand lives through the eyes of other creatures. He will also be able to travel through space-time to see his long lost family, but also to witness the future of House Stark and of the world in general. It seems to me that staying in the cave and eventually merging with a tree is the best option for Bran. Right now, I fail to see why, once his training is "completed" and once he realizes all of the things he can see and do while he is in that cave, Bran would want to go back to his old life as the "crippled prince". 

I think that Bran's storyline will end with him bringing "summer" to the world and reestablishing the balance between ice and fire. And with him choosing to stay in the cave to watch over the world and make sure the cycle of life continues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was really excited to read a Rickon post and then shortly realized it was all about Bran. Haha. That's ok Bran and Rickon are the two characters I'm looking forward to the most in the upcoming books. I also love the characters that surround both of them. Osha, the onion knight, jojen, and meera. I agree that I don't think he'll end in an anticlimactic arch. I think he will eventually be vital to the storyline and everything that will happen in the north in the upcoming wars. Fingers crossed anyways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×