Rickon Stark.........

[Blade of Sunlight]

I agree that Bran will end up in the tree, but I see no reason for him to go back South for most of his life after he defeats the Others.

Provided the Others are defeated, and Bran survives, if he feels more confortable being physically with the people he loves (Meera, Rickon, Arya, Sansa, provided they survive) I see no reason for him not to go back to Winterfell, he can "slip inside" the Wierwood in the Godswood to connect to the Weirnet, and then return to be enthroned when he's old.

If he made the journey North as a weaker greensrer, with the Others and during Winter I see no reason he could not journey south stronger, without wights and during summer.

[Ser Wyllber Thumb]

Hello everybody, all the years of waiting have finally driven me to start pestering this wonderful forum.

I really like the idea in OP of the direwolf names being "reverse tells".
Even though scheming and manipulating are not neccessarily detrimental to Sansa being a lady, but her now being bastard born Alayne is.
As to Robb, the opposite of Grey Wind would be Red ... Doldrums?

[Daemon I Blackfyre]

Regardless of the fact that Bran could leave Bloodraven behind by the end of the story, I've always thought that Rickon would sooner or later  rule the North, in his adulthood. He just strikes me like the Stark that the Starks will need after everything will be over.

He's seen his entire world collapse during his childhood. His father, mother and bigger brother were all killed, his household was burned and he was forced to live with a wildling in an harsh land inhabited by cannibals.  If direwolves are of any indication of what kind of Stark we're dealing with, Shaggydog is described as full of rage and fear.
A rageful and vengeful Stark is something we're not used to if you do not count Arya, who is currently far away and not herself anymore.

Rickon could grow into a very interesting Stark. The kind of Stark that remembers just like the North does. Hell, I don't see him killing off Freys that late, if Davos were to succeed and bring him home under Wyman Manderly.

It would be a natural transition. Eddard was peaceful, while Rickon would be full of hatred and fueled to strengthen the Starks.

I used to picture him as the sole surviving Stark by the end of the story.

[CrypticWeirwood]

Each of the Stark children’s wolves portends that child's respective future.

Like all of them, Rickon’s future is therefore that of his wolf’s name: it’s all a shaggy dog story full of sound and fur — and also fury, not to mention meaningless excursions, but in the end still signifying nothing.

It is known.

[The Lal]

Quote

Rickon is coming back at the end and he will bring Osha with him to be Old Nan mark II. She seemed that type with lots of stories and knowing how to look after everything, showing tact and responsibility already. The Skagosi could add numbers and surprise to a new northern army too. No more starks have to die haven't they suffered enough?? The Manderly's can guide him if needs be and by then his half brother may even be the king of the seven kingdoms. It just has to be at the end so its safe.

 

[The Lal]

Oh and by then he really can be a badass just like his siblings

[JonisHenryTudor]

On 4/13/2016 at 10:47 AM, Dorian Martell said:

That is because he is never leaving the tree. He will end up like the three eyed bloodraven. 

Don't buy it. Sorry. 

[Dorian Martell]

10 hours ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

Don't buy it. Sorry. 

no need to apologize. the book isn't written yet 

[JonisHenryTudor]

2 hours ago, Dorian Martell said:

no need to apologize. the book isn't written yet 

Haha. My comment did come off as a bit harsh/direct. It could happen, and I will not deny it. I just don't think Martin will resign his characters to that sort of ending. But he could. 

 

This may be a terrible assessment, but I think Martin wants his characters to move past the old ways of things...at least minimally. Bran may see the value in what BR does, but I think Bran (based on what Martin has told us about his personality) will not merely accept living in a tree and will want to integrate in some way with Westeros society. I think Bran--much like Arya--will learn from their respective teachers and then leave. I don't for one moment believe that Arya is simply going to be another FM. I think she will tell them to piss off in some way and return to her "pack". In the same way I see Bran learning all that he can, and then returning to help. I just don't see Bran as the type of character content with a tree house ;). Bran has the spirit of a knight, not a cloaked maester, and for that reason I don't see him hiding behind a bunch of tree roots (very simplified, I know..). 

 

 

Rickon...sorry for the derail. I think he will function as a figure head of House Stark. I cannot honestly say how Rickon's arc will progress, but I also don't buy that other theory floating around about Rickon and Shaggydog (mostly show forum I believe)... I think he will perhaps bring some friends from Skagos. It is really hard to tell, but I also think Martin had a purpose in shrouding Rickon's story. Only time will tell...

[Dorian Martell]

1 hour ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

Haha. My comment did come off as a bit harsh/direct. It could happen, and I will not deny it. I just don't think Martin will resign his characters to that sort of ending. But he could. 

Not harsh at all. Judging by reactions I seem to be the king of harsh here. Martin mentioned a bittersweet ending. Bran being able to watch all of his remaining family grow old and live happily, yet never speak to them directly would fit this in my humble opinion.

1 hour ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

This may be a terrible assessment, but I think Martin wants his characters to move past the old ways of things...at least minimally. Bran may see the value in what BR does, but I think Bran (based on what Martin has told us about his personality) will not merely accept living in a tree and will want to integrate in some way with Westeros society. I think Bran--much like Arya--will learn from their respective teachers and then leave. I don't for one moment believe that Arya is simply going to be another FM. I think she will tell them to piss off in some way and return to her "pack". In the same way I see Bran learning all that he can, and then returning to help. I just don't see Bran as the type of character content with a tree house ;). Bran has the spirit of a knight, not a cloaked maester, and for that reason I don't see him hiding behind a bunch of tree roots (very simplified, I know..). 

Paying a "price" is also a theme in the books. From the Lannisters always repaying their debts, to the gold or iron price, or only death can pay for life, I believe that the price for the full power of greensight is a life in a tree. I agree about characters changing and rejecting tradition, especially Arya though. And Jon and Sansa too 

1 hour ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

Rickon...sorry for the derail. I think he will function as a figure head of House Stark. I cannot honestly say how Rickon's arc will progress, but I also don't buy that other theory floating around about Rickon and Shaggydog (mostly show forum I believe)... I think he will perhaps bring some friends from Skagos. It is really hard to tell, but I also think Martin had a purpose in shrouding Rickon's story. Only time will tell...

There is the quote from Roose about child rulers, and then there is the lannisters on the throne that prove it. Ideally, there will be some form of Regency, like from the Manderlys. I agree that his shrouded story will carry weight later on. Warriors from Shagos that worship Rickon's skinchanging ability and see his direwolf as the magical creature it is.  

[JonisHenryTudor]

36 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

Not harsh at all. Judging by reactions I seem to be the king of harsh here. Martin mentioned a bittersweet ending. Bran being able to watch all of his remaining family grow old and live happily, yet never speak to them directly would fit this in my humble opinion.

Paying a "price" is also a theme in the books. From the Lannisters always repaying their debts, to the gold or iron price, or only death can pay for life, I believe that the price for the full power of greensight is a life in a tree. I agree about characters changing and rejecting tradition, especially Arya though. And Jon and Sansa too 

There is the quote from Roose about child rulers, and then there is the lannisters on the throne that prove it. Ideally, there will be some form of Regency, like from the Manderlys. I agree that his shrouded story will carry weight later on. Warriors from Shagos that worship Rickon's skinchanging ability and see his direwolf as the magical creature it is.  

As much as I don't think (want) Bran to be stuck, this I can agree with.... Just curious. Is BR stuck in the tree because he chose to be a greenseer, or did he become obsessed with power and as a consequence become ensnared within the tree? The only example I can think of would be the ring of power. I am not looking for an "out" for Bran. I am actually curious. 

 

 

As a side note...Why is the forum so buggy? Is it due to the recent revival/renewal of the show? 

[Dorian Martell]

9 hours ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

As much as I don't think (want) Bran to be stuck, this I can agree with.... Just curious. Is BR stuck in the tree because he chose to be a greenseer, or did he become obsessed with power and as a consequence become ensnared within the tree? The only example I can think of would be the ring of power. I am not looking for an "out" for Bran. I am actually curious. 

Hmmm, according to bloodraven, one in a thousand is born a skinchanger and one in one thousand skinchangers has the greensight. This would make bloodraven pretty rare. I would wager there was a greenseer that called to him the same way he called to Bran.  I think he is there because that is what is required to be a greenseer. 

Spoiler

According to the most recent episode of the show, leaf makes it clear to Meera that Bran will leave the cave, so, maybe he stays in the books and the show is different like dead barristan, Varys in Mereen and Jaime jealous of a hella gay Loras, or maybe he leaves in the book  and that part is the same, like Dany riding drogon to the Dothraki sea and encountering a Khalasar

 

9 hours ago, JonisHenryTudor said:

As a side note...Why is the forum so buggy? Is it due to the recent revival/renewal of the show? 

They don't pay for enough bandwidth 

[420faceless]

We'll have more objective answers when we see how Rikon is treated in the TV series this season...

[SuperMario]

5 hours ago, 420faceless said:

We'll have more objective answers when we see how Rikon is treated in the TV series this season...

I don't think we can take much objectively from the show for Rickon and compare it to the books. Considering where he is in the books and where he is in the show and all the surrounding elements and people, it will be far different. Whether he dies in the books or becomes a new king of the north, I don't think there will be many similar lead up elements compared to the show.

[aryagonnakill#2]

11 minutes ago, SuperMario said:

I don't think we can take much objectively from the show for Rickon and compare it to the books. Considering where he is in the books and where he is in the show and all the surrounding elements and people, it will be far different. Whether he dies in the books or becomes a new king of the north, I don't think there will be many similar lead up elements compared to the show.

Ya, I think there are certain things we can look at and say ok that will ultimately end up the same, and other things where it has just gone in a different direction.  For example, Stannis loosing just points to him ultimately loosing, not at the hands of the Boltons, but Rickon being given to Ramsay by the Boltons, who in the books are not only pro Stark but don't have Rickon, is not relatable to the text.

[Scorpion92]

Well, I think what they are doing in the show and the books are very different of course, but broad strokes of what they want to accomplish is the same: Rickon will return to Winterfell in the books as well. But it will be in more complicated fashion than just simply be delivered to Ramsay Bolton.

I believe Davos' POV will show us Skagos from the view of outsider and how Rickon and Shaggydog became so wild in this environment and around this people who do not appear to be the monsters like they are described by northerners. However, I believe we shall see "Hardhome" kind of nightmare and slaughter on Skagos when "dead things in the water" come out and kill majority of Skagosi population, including Osha. Davos, Rickon and Shaggydog and MAYBE some Skagosi survivors will get aboard his ship and sail to the nearest northern mainland. In my opinion, it will be Karhold. The reason for sending Davos and Rickon to Karhold is to show newly established House Thenn and how wildlings are assimilating into the North.

From there, thanks to wonderful essays of Cantuse, I believe Ser Davos, Rickon and Thenns will hear about Roose Bolton marching on Dreadfort to retake his castle from Stannis loyalists (Val and her wildlings, Mors Umber and his green boys, Theon, Richard Horpe and ironborn that were captured in Deepwood Motte, Arthor Karstark's sons, etc.) while Stannis himself retook Winterfell and uses Robert's method of forced marches to catch up to Roose and smash him from behind. I believe Thenns, thankful to Jon, and maybe Skagosi survivors will agree to march with Davos and Rickon to Dreadfort, and they will arrive at the sight of the battle between Stannis and Roose. Of course, Leech Lord is destined to be doomed, and maybe Shaggydog will be responsible for his death.

With Stannis defeating Boltons and Davos fulfilling his promise to return Rickon, the Mannis will give Lord Manderly and northern nobility their liege lord and name Rickon as his Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North with Manderly as the boy's Lord Regent. In reality, the North will be ruled by Wyman Manderly in Rickon's name. In return, northern lords will provide Stannis with an army and Lord Manderly will give him the fleet that he promised to Davos so rightful king can go and take the Iron Throne second time. Since Stannis' family is at the Wall, he will dispatch Ser Davos to go and fetch them. He cannot go himself because he does not have time: the weather gets worse with each passing day, and situation in the South (fAegon, Faith, Euron attacking Oldtown, etc.) presents him a perfect opportunity to strike. I think Asha Greyjoy will make an alliance with him and captain the ships that Manderly gave since it is stated in the books they do not have experienced sailors. When Stannis will reach Dragonstone with his new army, he will be met by Dany and her invading troops, and a lie of "blue eyed king with burning sword who cast no shadow" will be slain. Ser Davos, meanwhile, will be involved with the situation at the Wall: Shireen's burning, Jon's resurrection, etc. I think Davos' storyline in the books will be similar to the show - he will march with Jon and wildlings to take Winterfell.

From overall picture, the events in the books that I expect are much better and richer, but the general outline is the same as in the show - Rickon will be returned to Winterfell and be controlled by third party (Ramsay in the show, Manderly in the books), while Jon and wildlings march to Winterfell to take control of Rickon and Winterfell. In both situations, I think the boy is doomed to die, as sad as it might seem.

[Lady Lyanna Mormont]

I don't take that a character dying in the show means they'll die in the books, only that in the overall, they might not be as of importance as other ones. These are my predictions:

1. I don't see Jon ruling WInterfell neither sitting on the Iron Throne, if the R+L theory is correct. To me, he's most likely outcome is as Lord Commander.

2. Either Bran will come back and be the heir of Winterfell, may even eventually marry Meera. In this scenario, either Rickon really dies or he might be important to bring Skagos closer to the North lords, either ruling them or just being able to form an alliance since he spent sometime there.

3. Bran stays where he is and Rickon rules Winterfell.

4. I see Arya following a somewhat lonely path, either she'll stay with the FM or she'll be back to Westeros becoming some sort of knight (kinda like Brianne)... I just don't see her getting married.

5. Sansa is the only one I have no idea. It seems that on the show she's going to play a part on the battle of the bastards and on the books, by the last Alayne's chapter, she's on the Vale, being prepped by LF to marry whats-his-face. Unless he's as abusive as Ramsay, I can't conect boths stories.

[Slaysman]

It is my understanding that the books will be different from the show. It is due to time and budgetary reasons that characters who are not essential to the end game are being killed off. So Rickon may become Rickon "The Mad Wolf" (or the Black Wolf, for those who prefer that) Stark Lord of Skagos.

[YouKnowNothingJonSnow]

Put me firmly in the following camps:

1) I don't believe that dying on the show means dying in the books. Too many examples to the contrary. Too many radical plot-line deviations. Of which the whole Stannis/Winterfell, Davos, fake Arya/Jenyne, Bolton's, Littlefinger/Sansa, Theon/Asha, Rickon/Osha plotline is one of the most deviant. Plus I think George will want to make the books different than the show in some ways. He's already talked openly of wanting a twist they can't do in the show because a character has been killed.

2) I see no reason why Bran can't leave the cave. Now, it may turn out he stays there, but there seems to be no evidence he MUST do so. I think Doran Martell's logic on this point is fairly twisted, borderline non-existent. If there is no hard evidence either way, then both possibilities must remain open. However, that doesn't mean the opinion that Bran will stay in the cave is wrong. 

As a side note, I think the evidence is pretty strong that Bran is a stronger green-seer than Bloodraven. Both directly and anecdotally. He can have visions without touching the tree. He's a warg. And we know magic has grown stronger with the return of the dragons. He may be a noob in terms of using his powers, but his powers are stronger than BRs. Most probably, FAR stronger.

3) I think bastards being legitimized will be more common as a lot of the noble houses are running out of heirs. Robb did it. Roose did it. Maya Stone, Gendry, and others are all candidates. The Houses will have to do so else go extinct. It will be a matter of self-preservation over propriety. If one looks at the state of the Houses (and Tower of the Hand has a good essay up on that topic), they'll have to.

3) For many of the same reasons, I think the patriarchy will come to an end in Westeros. House preservation over misogyny. Females will be able to inherit and rule. If not, many Houses will be extinct. Plus, it is already happened a bunch anyway. Dany is a queen. She rules openly both in book and show. Dornish tradition about women is already at odds with the rest of Westeros, and Arianne seems to be being groomed to rule. Then there is the show.  The female line rules the Reach in fact if not in law in both universes. Asha is making a bid to rule the Iron Islands in both universes, and no law stands in her way. Women have ruled as regents, both in King's Landing (Cersei) and the Vale (Lyssa).

In sum, you've had KL, Slaver's Bay, and the Vale ruled by women in the book and the series. Olenna has rules the reach from behind the scenes in both. Asha makes a play to rule the Iron Islands in both, and it is not prohibit ed by law. Dorne has laws more favorable to women. Female High Priestesses seem to be the norm for the Lord of Light. Really, the only Kingdoms where a female rules (in fact or law, show or book) hasn't be a reality or close to it are: the North, the Riverlands, the West, and the Stormlands. Dany seems certain to take the latter, and I feel some combination of Sansa, Arya, Asha, and Mya Stone will rule eventually. Maybe Shireen as well. The Mormonts rule on Bear Island with female heads of the House as well.

4) I think Jon Snow or Arya will rule the north. For a couple reasons. One, all the other Stark children are said to favor their mother and be Tully-like in coloring: Robb, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon. Now, Sansa is the only one on the TV show where this is apparent, but facts are facts. I just think that Winterfell will be ruled by a Stark looking Stark, not a Tully looking Stark. Next, Jon has been named Robb's heir, in fact. Next, as a consequence of women gaining parity with men, Arya would be eligible, as would Jon (even though he's technically a Targ, he's still a Stark through Lyanna). Either way, Jon is eligible.

5) There are so many younger generation women who seem better able to lead their Houses then their male coutnerparts: Dany (over Aegon); Asha (over Euron/Victarion); Margaery for the Reach; Shireen for the  Stromlands; Arianne in Dorne. Throw in a couple bastards (Mya Stone) or older ladies (Olenna, Widow of the Waterfront) and I think the females are on the rise. Of course, ladies have their problems as well (Cersei). 

Anyway, I don't  buy the binary choice of Rickon/Bran as the heir to House Stark. I think Jon, Sansa, and Arya are all in line ahead of them. I think some comination of those five will rule the North, the Riverlands, and the Vale by the end of the series. Wit the Stark like children (Jon, Arya) most likely staying in the North and the Tully like children (Sansa, Bran, Rickon) going south.

I guess we'll soon see. Hooefully.

 

 

[Aedam Targaryen]

On August 29, 2016 at 3:23 PM, YouKnowNothingJonSnow said:

Put me firmly in the following camps:

1) I don't believe that dying on the show means dying in the books. Too many examples to the contrary. Too many radical plot-line deviations. Of which the whole Stannis/Winterfell, Davos, fake Arya/Jenyne, Bolton's, Littlefinger/Sansa, Theon/Asha, Rickon/Osha plotline is one of the most deviant. Plus I think George will want to make the books different than the show in some ways. He's already talked openly of wanting a twist they can't do in the show because a character has been killed.

2) I see no reason why Bran can't leave the cave. Now, it may turn out he stays there, but there seems to be no evidence he MUST do so. I think Doran Martell's logic on this point is fairly twisted, borderline non-existent. If there is no hard evidence either way, then both possibilities must remain open. However, that doesn't mean the opinion that Bran will stay in the cave is wrong. 

As a side note, I think the evidence is pretty strong that Bran is a stronger green-seer than Bloodraven. Both directly and anecdotally. He can have visions without touching the tree. He's a warg. And we know magic has grown stronger with the return of the dragons. He may be a noob in terms of using his powers, but his powers are stronger than BRs. Most probably, FAR stronger.

3) I think bastards being legitimized will be more common as a lot of the noble houses are running out of heirs. Robb did it. Roose did it. Maya Stone, Gendry, and others are all candidates. The Houses will have to do so else go extinct. It will be a matter of self-preservation over propriety. If one looks at the state of the Houses (and Tower of the Hand has a good essay up on that topic), they'll have to.

3) For many of the same reasons, I think the patriarchy will come to an end in Westeros. House preservation over misogyny. Females will be able to inherit and rule. If not, many Houses will be extinct. Plus, it is already happened a bunch anyway. Dany is a queen. She rules openly both in book and show. Dornish tradition about women is already at odds with the rest of Westeros, and Arianne seems to be being groomed to rule. Then there is the show.  The female line rules the Reach in fact if not in law in both universes. Asha is making a bid to rule the Iron Islands in both universes, and no law stands in her way. Women have ruled as regents, both in King's Landing (Cersei) and the Vale (Lyssa).

In sum, you've had KL, Slaver's Bay, and the Vale ruled by women in the book and the series. Olenna has rules the reach from behind the scenes in both. Asha makes a play to rule the Iron Islands in both, and it is not prohibit ed by law. Dorne has laws more favorable to women. Female High Priestesses seem to be the norm for the Lord of Light. Really, the only Kingdoms where a female rules (in fact or law, show or book) hasn't be a reality or close to it are: the North, the Riverlands, the West, and the Stormlands. Dany seems certain to take the latter, and I feel some combination of Sansa, Arya, Asha, and Mya Stone will rule eventually. Maybe Shireen as well. The Mormonts rule on Bear Island with female heads of the House as well.

4) I think Jon Snow or Arya will rule the north. For a couple reasons. One, all the other Stark children are said to favor their mother and be Tully-like in coloring: Robb, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon. Now, Sansa is the only one on the TV show where this is apparent, but facts are facts. I just think that Winterfell will be ruled by a Stark looking Stark, not a Tully looking Stark. Next, Jon has been named Robb's heir, in fact. Next, as a consequence of women gaining parity with men, Arya would be eligible, as would Jon (even though he's technically a Targ, he's still a Stark through Lyanna). Either way, Jon is eligible.

5) There are so many younger generation women who seem better able to lead their Houses then their male coutnerparts: Dany (over Aegon); Asha (over Euron/Victarion); Margaery for the Reach; Shireen for the  Stromlands; Arianne in Dorne. Throw in a couple bastards (Mya Stone) or older ladies (Olenna, Widow of the Waterfront) and I think the females are on the rise. Of course, ladies have their problems as well (Cersei). 

Anyway, I don't  buy the binary choice of Rickon/Bran as the heir to House Stark. I think Jon, Sansa, and Arya are all in line ahead of them. I think some comination of those five will rule the North, the Riverlands, and the Vale by the end of the series. Wit the Stark like children (Jon, Arya) most likely staying in the North and the Tully like children (Sansa, Bran, Rickon) going south.

I guess we'll soon see. Hooefully.

 

 

I'm not too sure about these bolded sections. Yes, bastards will need to be legitimized to prevent some houses extinction, but who's going to want to prevent it? Maybe I'm missing some potential candidates off the top of my head, but both of your examples were Baratheon bastards. I don't see Stannis being cool with legitimizing bastards (his dislike of bastards seemed above average to me), even if he ever gets anywhere near them again. And if Stannis dies, whoever sits on the iron throne won't care if the Baratheon line blows out. While we seem to agree that Mya Stone is awesome, I really can't picture anyone in Westeros wanting the Baratheon line to continue so badly that they would track her down and give her a castle. 

And while all these wars have been thinning out bloodlines, I can see some women ruling in the immediate aftermath of all of this carnage, but I really doubt it will change society for the long term. Once these Lady rulers pop out some sons, it will all be back to how it was.