Tyrion's witnesses at the Purple Wedding trial - Myrish looking glasses!

[TheDemonicStark]

If the posion was meant for Tyrion, and Littlefinger was behind it, because he knew Tyrion would be able to uncover his scheming as Master of Coin, the fact it failed definitely shows us that, rather then a master chess master, Littlefinger is a gambler. He is dangerous, but he also is nowhere near as good a player at the game of thrones as Varys.

[aryagonnakill#2]

1 hour ago, TheDemonicStark said:

If the posion was meant for Tyrion, and Littlefinger was behind it, because he knew Tyrion would be able to uncover his scheming as Master of Coin, the fact it failed definitely shows us that, rather then a master chess master, Littlefinger is a gambler. He is dangerous, but he also is nowhere near as good a player at the game of thrones as Varys.

Don't let them trick you.  Anyone can frame an argument well, but GRRM doesn't lie, the poison was in the wine and meant for Joffrey.

[TheDemonicStark]

1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Don't let them trick you.  Anyone can frame an argument well, but GRRM doesn't lie, the poison was in the wine and meant for Joffrey.

Alright then.

But I am still right about Littlefinger.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

7 minutes ago, TheDemonicStark said:

Alright then.

But I am still right about Littlefinger.

I see your point. Littlefinger is a gambler; Doran and Varys are the true schemers. 

All the "scheming" LF did was on two fronts: Beggaring the realm and bedding Lysa Tully. All else is up to chance.

Will Ned bite his bait? Chance. Will Dontos not spill the beans? Chance. Will Sansa agree with all this f***ed up s**t? Chance. 

He gambles and, so far, he wins. When he loses, oh... let him beware.

[TheDemonicStark]

40 minutes ago, WilliamWesterosiWallace said:

I see your point. Littlefinger is a gambler; Doran and Varys are the true schemers. 

All the "scheming" LF did was on two fronts: Beggaring the realm and bedding Lysa Tully. All else is up to chance.

Will Ned bite his bait? Chance. Will Dontos not spill the beans? Chance. Will Sansa agree with all this f***ed up s**t? Chance. 

He gambles and, so far, he wins. When he loses, oh... let him beware.

He has actually set himself up to lose. By taking Sansa as his protégé, and planning on marrying her to the Lord of the Vale after Sweetrobin dies, she is all set to spill the beans and end him once she finds out about him betraying her father.

[Isobel Harper]

2 hours ago, TheDemonicStark said:

He has actually set himself up to lose. By taking Sansa as his protégé, and planning on marrying her to the Lord of the Vale after Sweetrobin dies, she is all set to spill the beans and end him once she finds out about him betraying her father.

As Jon and Arya say in AGoT, "don't tell Sansa!"  If only LF knew that his protégé was the family tattle-tale.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

5 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

As Jon and Arya say in AGoT, "don't tell Sansa!"  If only LF knew that his protégé was the family tattle-tale.

And she might've tattle-taled already to Myranda Royce on the descent from the Eyrie...

[CaliWolf]

Poison has antidotes. It's just as possible that the wine was poisoned, and Margaery was given an antidote beforehand by her grandmother/mother or whoever poisoned the wine. So the wine still very much could have been poisoned without any intention of killing Margaery. 

If the pie was poisoned its seems very clear that we can't know whether it it was only Tyrion's piece and intended solely for him that was poisoned. If it was the entire pie that was poisoned, other guest certainly would have gotten a slice and been poisoned as well. If it was the cream that had the poison, we'd be fools to believe that the server only poured the Lemon Cream on Tyrion's cake and no one elses. I think it's also a safe assumption to make that everyone else was eating the cake save Tyrion and Sansa.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

Just now, CaliWolf said:

Poison has antidotes. It's just as possible that the wine was poisoned, and Margaery was given an antidote beforehand by her grandmother/mother or whoever poisoned the wine. So the wine still very much could have been poisoned without any intention of killing Margaery.

Excellent point.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎7‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 0:55 PM, TheDemonicStark said:

If the posion was meant for Tyrion, and Littlefinger was behind it, because he knew Tyrion would be able to uncover his scheming as Master of Coin, the fact it failed definitely shows us that, rather then a master chess master, Littlefinger is a gambler. He is dangerous, but he also is nowhere near as good a player at the game of thrones as Varys.

Even the best of the best can make a mistake, and Joffrey getting into Tyrion's pie first is a random event that no one could have predicted.

What it does show about Littlefinger, however, is how well he pivots when confronted with changing circumstances. It's a huge setback for him, but he still has clean hands and he can still use it to his advantage.

Varys isn't all that great either. He failed to stop the Wot5K when Illyrio wanted him to. He failed in getting Ned to the Night's Watch. He was forced to release Tyrion and then failed to prevent him from killing Tywin (or did he actually want that to happen?).

It's a complicated game with no rules. No one can be right 100 percent of the time. 

 

On ‎7‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 2:18 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Don't let them trick you.  Anyone can frame an argument well, but GRRM doesn't lie, the poison was in the wine and meant for Joffrey.

There is absolutely no comment from GRRM, when referring to the book, where he says the poison was in the wine and Joffrey was the target. Sorry.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎7‎/‎31‎/‎2016 at 11:09 PM, CaliWolf said:

Poison has antidotes. It's just as possible that the wine was poisoned, and Margaery was given an antidote beforehand by her grandmother/mother or whoever poisoned the wine. So the wine still very much could have been poisoned without any intention of killing Margaery. 

If the pie was poisoned its seems very clear that we can't know whether it it was only Tyrion's piece and intended solely for him that was poisoned. If it was the entire pie that was poisoned, other guest certainly would have gotten a slice and been poisoned as well. If it was the cream that had the poison, we'd be fools to believe that the server only poured the Lemon Cream on Tyrion's cake and no one elses. I think it's also a safe assumption to make that everyone else was eating the cake save Tyrion and Sansa.

If there is an antidote to the Strangler, it is never mentioned. As a contact poison, it would be very difficult to prevent it from penetrating the porous tissue in the throat or to stifle its action once absorbed. Besides, if Margy takes her drink and then hands the chalice to Joff who then drinks and dies, how is she supposed to claim she is innocent of his murder?

Lady Olenna was standing in the immediate area just before the cutting ceremony began. Tyrion's pie was served immediately after the pigeons were released -- literally seconds later -- so it had to be right there as well. All Lady O needs to do is make sure one person, the server, is looking up at the pigeons for the split second it takes to pinch the crystal into the filling. Lady O does not need any accomplices to do the pie, and this is far easier than making sure that the hundreds of people who have direct view of the chalice don't see the lengthy arm reach over the rim. All it takes is one witness and virtually the entire Tyrell line is headless: Lady O, Margy, Loras, Mace, Allerie, Garlen, probably Leonette too.

The cream is an unlikely vehicle because it would start to discolor as the poison was absorbed, unlike the pie filling which is already dark.

[CaliWolf]

31 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

If there is an antidote to the Strangler, it is never mentioned. As a contact poison, it would be very difficult to prevent it from penetrating the porous tissue in the throat or to stifle its action once absorbed. Besides, if Margy takes her drink and then hands the chalice to Joff who then drinks and dies, how is she supposed to claim she is innocent of his murder?

Lady Olenna was standing in the immediate area just before the cutting ceremony began. Tyrion's pie was served immediately after the pigeons were released -- literally seconds later -- so it had to be right there as well. All Lady O needs to do is make sure one person, the server, is looking up at the pigeons for the split second it takes to pinch the crystal into the filling. Lady O does not need any accomplices to do the pie, and this is far easier than making sure that the hundreds of people who have direct view of the chalice don't see the lengthy arm reach over the rim. All it takes is one witness and virtually the entire Tyrell line is headless: Lady O, Margy, Loras, Mace, Allerie, Garlen, probably Leonette too.

The cream is an unlikely vehicle because it would start to discolor as the poison was absorbed, unlike the pie filling which is already dark.

Not so sure an antidote hasn't been mentioned. In fact we have an exact case where Melisandre drinks a large portion of the wine from a cup containing the same poison and isn't affected while the maester that gave it to her died after a small sip. Now she obviously saw that she was going to be poisoned before hand, as she said she always checks the fires to see if her person is in any harm first (probably in her chapter of aDwD). Now you can believe one of two things:

1. That her powers literally saved her from being poisoned  - OR -

2. Having known she was going to be poisoned, drank something to prevent it from harming her. 

I personally believe option 2 here. Now the only downside might be that why didn't the Maester use the same potion to save himself? Well there's two logical explanations for that. First, If he had succeeded in killing Melisandre, he would have been killed anyway, probably by fire, in which case, death by poison would surely be better. Secondly, not every maester knows everything about everything.

[Illyrio Mo'Parties]

6 hours ago, CaliWolf said:

Not so sure an antidote hasn't been mentioned. In fact we have an exact case where Melisandre drinks a large portion of the wine from a cup containing the same poison and isn't affected while the maester that gave it to her died after a small sip. Now she obviously saw that she was going to be poisoned before hand, as she said she always checks the fires to see if her person is in any harm first (probably in her chapter of aDwD). Now you can believe one of two things:

1. That her powers literally saved her from being poisoned  - OR -

2. Having known she was going to be poisoned, drank something to prevent it from harming her. 

I personally believe option 2 here. Now the only downside might be that why didn't the Maester use the same potion to save himself? Well there's two logical explanations for that. First, If he had succeeded in killing Melisandre, he would have been killed anyway, probably by fire, in which case, death by poison would surely be better. Secondly, not every maester knows everything about everything.

KABOOM! Bombshell!

[John Suburbs]

23 hours ago, CaliWolf said:

Not so sure an antidote hasn't been mentioned. In fact we have an exact case where Melisandre drinks a large portion of the wine from a cup containing the same poison and isn't affected while the maester that gave it to her died after a small sip. Now she obviously saw that she was going to be poisoned before hand, as she said she always checks the fires to see if her person is in any harm first (probably in her chapter of aDwD). Now you can believe one of two things:

1. That her powers literally saved her from being poisoned  - OR -

2. Having known she was going to be poisoned, drank something to prevent it from harming her. 

I personally believe option 2 here. Now the only downside might be that why didn't the Maester use the same potion to save himself? Well there's two logical explanations for that. First, If he had succeeded in killing Melisandre, he would have been killed anyway, probably by fire, in which case, death by poison would surely be better. Secondly, not every maester knows everything about everything.

- OR -

Melisandre is already dead, and therefore not vulnerable to poison.

And it still doesn't solve the problem of what Margy is supposed to say when she drinks from the cup and goes on her merry way while Joffrey is dead on the floor.

[CaliWolf]

14 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

- OR -

Melisandre is already dead, and therefore not vulnerable to poison.

And it still doesn't solve the problem of what Margy is supposed to say when she drinks from the cup and goes on her merry way while Joffrey is dead on the floor.

They already think he was poisoned via the wine though. Yet, no one seemed to point the finger at her in the first place. 

If they didn't think Joff was poisoned via the wine, it wouldn't have mattered if Tyrion poured the rest of the wine out. And Mace Tyrell wouldn't have been so angry that the two had been drinking of the same cup. So clearly he believes they were poisoned via the wine. Plus Taena Merryweather claimed at Tyrions trial that she saw Tyrion drop the poison in the wine. So everyone already believes the poisoning happened via the wine, yet not a single person suspects the Tyrells, because they had no reason to do it because they were about to become much more powerful. 

 

Also, why do you believe that she is dead? Do you think all the red priests are dead, or just her?

[John Suburbs]

18 minutes ago, CaliWolf said:

They already think he was poisoned via the wine though. Yet, no one seemed to point the finger at her in the first place. 

If they didn't think Joff was poisoned via the wine, it wouldn't have mattered if Tyrion poured the rest of the wine out. And Mace Tyrell wouldn't have been so angry that the two had been drinking of the same cup. So clearly he believes they were poisoned via the wine. Plus Taena Merryweather claimed at Tyrions trial that she saw Tyrion drop the poison in the wine. So everyone already believes the poisoning happened via the wine, yet not a single person suspects the Tyrells, because they had no reason to do it because they were about to become much more powerful. 

 

Also, why do you believe that she is dead? Do you think all the red priests are dead, or just her?

I'm not sure I follow. Margy was never even remotely close to the chalice since Joffrey took his big drink before the cutting. There is no way she could be accused of anything.

Contrast that with the antidote theory:

The poison is dropped in the wine and the next person who drinks from it will drop dead. Lady O hopes it will be Joffrey, but there is no way to know for sure. This is a time when toasts are being called out (as indeed, there was, from Lord Buckler), in which case, chivalry would dictate ladies first. So to protect Margy, Lady O gives her this antidote (either knowingly or unknowingly) so that if Margy has to drink first she will survive. But then in the next instant, she has to hand the cup directly to Joffrey who drinks and keels over.

So how is Margy supposed to explain that she is still alive? Either she has the antidote or she was the one to poison the wine -- both of which will cause her to lose her head.

[CaliWolf]

1 minute ago, John Suburbs said:

I'm not sure I follow. Margy was never even remotely close to the chalice since Joffrey took his big drink before the cutting. There is no way she could be accused of anything.

Contrast that with the antidote theory:

The poison is dropped in the wine and the next person who drinks from it will drop dead. Lady O hopes it will be Joffrey, but there is no way to know for sure. This is a time when toasts are being called out (as indeed, there was, from Lord Buckler), in which case, chivalry would dictate ladies first. So to protect Margy, Lady O gives her this antidote (either knowingly or unknowingly) so that if Margy has to drink first she will survive. But then in the next instant, she has to hand the cup directly to Joffrey who drinks and keels over.

So how is Margy supposed to explain that she is still alive? Either she has the antidote or she was the one to poison the wine -- both of which will cause her to lose her head.

No I don't think so. No matter what happened, Cersei would have blamed Tyrion regardless.

Saying that Margy could have received an antidote similar to what Mel may have taken, was just to show everyone who believes the cake was poisoned that it still could very well have been the wine. A lot of people thinks it would make no sense for the wine to have been poisoned because Margy and Joff were both drinking from the same cup, so Lady O would never risk poisoning her own granddaughter. 

 

Again, no one would suspect Margy at all. Maybe they would think tyrion poisoned something else. As Littlefinger said the best time to do something is when absolutely no one suspects you, and they trust you most. Who would believe that the girl about to become queen would poison the king? Nobody.

[Ygrain]

Just one thing concerning the OP: there is nothing suspicious about combining meat with sweetish sauces. Plum or rosehip sauce is traditional with venison, liver can be stewed with onion and apples... chicken steak with peach and cheese, beef with bacon and apricots, salmon with orange sauce, chicken roasted with leek and lemons...

Some fruity tastes go surprisingly well with meat, it's only a matter of certain "prejudice" that sweet and salty tastes cannot be combined.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, CaliWolf said:

No I don't think so. No matter what happened, Cersei would have blamed Tyrion regardless.

Saying that Margy could have received an antidote similar to what Mel may have taken, was just to show everyone who believes the cake was poisoned that it still could very well have been the wine. A lot of people thinks it would make no sense for the wine to have been poisoned because Margy and Joff were both drinking from the same cup, so Lady O would never risk poisoning her own granddaughter. 

 

Again, no one would suspect Margy at all. Maybe they would think tyrion poisoned something else. As Littlefinger said the best time to do something is when absolutely no one suspects you, and they trust you most. Who would believe that the girl about to become queen would poison the king? Nobody.

What if Tyrion was not even in the room at the time? He and Sansa were on their way out while Joff and Margy were dancing around the room and it was only by the merest chance that Joff spotted them leaving and decided to start up with Tyrion again.

What if Tyrion was never made cup-bearer and was never near the chalice at all? What if the chalice had remained at Joff's and Margy's place at the head table right in front of Cersei and Tywin the whole time?

The poison could not have been in the wine. Period. Joffrey would have been choking by the time he finished chugging it right after the cutting ceremony, and there is no possible way either LF or LO could have known that the chalice would end up right where it did at exactly the right time right in front of the only person who has even the slightest chance of dropping the crystal unseen by the hundreds or people in the room.

This theoretical antidote is a non-solution for Lady O for the reasons I stated above: if Margy drinks and lives and then Joff drinks and dies, then either Margy poisoned the wine herself or she knew it was poisoned. Either way, she dies. Antidote or not, Lady O is taking the same risk with Margy's life by poisoning the wine.

And again, there is no way Margy could be suspected of either the pie or the wine because she was not anywhere near either of them the entire time, so I still don't understand what you're getting at here. 

[CaliWolf]

5 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

What if Tyrion was not even in the room at the time? He and Sansa were on their way out while Joff and Margy were dancing around the room and it was only by the merest chance that Joff spotted them leaving and decided to start up with Tyrion again.

What if Tyrion was never made cup-bearer and was never near the chalice at all? What if the chalice had remained at Joff's and Margy's place at the head table right in front of Cersei and Tywin the whole time?

The poison could not have been in the wine. Period. Joffrey would have been choking by the time he finished chugging it right after the cutting ceremony, and there is no possible way either LF or LO could have known that the chalice would end up right where it did at exactly the right time right in front of the only person who has even the slightest chance of dropping the crystal unseen by the hundreds or people in the room.

This theoretical antidote is a non-solution for Lady O for the reasons I stated above: if Margy drinks and lives and then Joff drinks and dies, then either Margy poisoned the wine herself or she knew it was poisoned. Either way, she dies. Antidote or not, Lady O is taking the same risk with Margy's life by poisoning the wine.

And again, there is no way Margy could be suspected of either the pie or the wine because she was not anywhere near either of them the entire time, so I still don't understand what you're getting at here. 

You're making up situations that didn't happen though, which is pointless because we have absolutely no way of knowing what would have happened had things gone differently. So Just to be clear you believe that LF and LO were trying to poison Tyrion the entire time via the cake, and just caught Joff in the crossfire? Otherwise what your saying can't possibly make more sense than the wine containing the poison. Also I really don't get what LO really has to gain from Tyrion dying. Also A big part of the cake being poisoned theory rests on LO doing the poisoning herself. But it would be extremely stupid for her to actually do the act her self instead of paying someone else or telling someone else to do it (like, maybe her fool?). That would be pretty risky, and LO is not stupid enough to risk getting caught. At least if its someone in her service doing it she can try to defend herself.

Regardless if Tyrion had or had not (actually) been seen anywhere near the cup, Cersei would have accused him and payed people off to say whatever she wanted. That is the entire point. Her hatred of him is beyond logic. She would have found some way to blame Tyrion.