Joanna Lannister Discussion

[norwaywolf123]

Backgrond Information:

Joanna Lannister was the daughter of Jason Lannister and his wife Marla Prester, whom was twice his age. She was born in between 245-250 AL, went to cour in 259 for Jaehaerys the second's coronation to be Rhaella's lady in waiting, married Tywin 263 AL, gave birth to Jaime and Cersei in 266 AL and died giving birth to Tyrion in 273 AL. 

- If she was born in 245, she would have been 14 when she came to court for Jaehaerys's coronation, she would have been 18 when she married Tywin, 21 when she had Jaime and Cersei, and later died aged 30 giving birth to Tyrion in 273 AL.

- If she was born in 246, she would have been 13 when she came to court for Jaehaerys's coronation, she would have been 17 when she married Tywin, 20 when she had Jaime and Cersei, and later died aged 29 giving birth to Tyrion in 273 AL.

- If she was born in 247, she would have been 12 when she came to court for Jaehaerys's coronation, she would have been 16 when she married Tywin, 19 when she had Jaime and Cersei, and later died aged 28 giving birth to Tyrion in 273 AL.

- If she was born in 248, she would have been 11 when she came to court for Jaehaerys's coronation, she would have been 15 when she married Tywin, 18 when she had Jaime and Cersei, and later died aged 27 giving birth to Tyrion in 273 AL

- If she was born in 249, she would have been 10 when she came to court for Jaehaerys's coronation, she would have been 14 when she married Tywin, 17 when she had Jaime and Cersei, and later died aged 26 giving birth to Tyrion in 273 AL.

- If she was born in 250, she would have been 9 when she came to court for Jaehaerys's coronation, she would have been 13 when she married Tywin, 16 when she had Jaime and Cersei, and later died aged 25 giving birth to Tyrion  in 273 AL.

Joanna's marriage to Tywin was reportedly a happy one. Joanna also became Tywins trusted counselor and advisor. It was said of Tywin that he "Ruled the seven kingdoms but was ruled at home by his lady wife".

Joanna is said to have been close friend's to both Rhaella Targaryen and the princess of Dorne.

Why did Tywin and Joanna marry?

- Tytos was not a strong man, and i think that Jason did alot for him, like command the westermen forces during the war of ninepenny kings, Since Tytos was not a warrior. Maybe Jason wanted to have his blood in the main branch and he and Tytos arranged the marriage.

- Tywin loved Joanna and asked her. Being the lord paramounts wife is a very powerful position, she would be lucky for the match. Especially if she had been Aerys's paramour, as then she would not be a maid anymore. 

- Tywin and Joanna loved each other.

- If she had been Aerys's paramour maybe Aerys promised that Tywin's daughter would marry Rhaegar a be Queen if Tywin married Joanna. Joanna could have manipulated Aerys into doing this.

- Gerold Lannister wanted to consolidate the lineages of his two living sons to prevent unrest in the family. Tytos was known for being a weak man but Jason seems like he takes a more active stance. Jason impregnated one of his fathers bannerman without his fathers consent, sounds like a guy who takes what he want. A marriage between Tytos's heir and Jason's daughter would have made sure there would be no compitition between the brothers for Caterly Rock.

- If she had some hidden Targaryen heritage and Rhaella suffering only stillbirths and miscarriages after Rhaegar, Tywin might have expected his daughter would be married to the crown prince. This would likely have increased his frustration at Rhaegar marrying Elia of Dorne.

- Other

What was Tywin and Joanna's relationship like?

- Depends on Aerys and Joanna is true.

- Other

Aerys and Joanna ?

- Joanna went to King's landing in 259 Al, for the Coronation of Jaehaerys the Second. Where she was lady in waiting to Rhaella Targaryen. There were rumors that Joanna had given her maidenhead to Aerys the night of Jaehaerys's coronation. If she was born in 245 she would have been 14 years, and if she was born in 250 she would have been 9 years. I don't think this is more than a rumor released by Aerys to spite Tywin, and if it was true Aerys may have taken her by force or she was to afraid to deny him.

- There are other rumors that Joanna became Aerys's paramour for a short period after Aerys's coronation. However Pycelle dismisses this as rumors saying that "Tywin was not a man accostomed to feast on another man's leaving". But Pycelle is also a Lannister toad, and more specificly Tywin's toad and fanboy.

- If they had a relationship was it consensual, and did they love each other? Also would it have continued after her marriage to Tywin? I think that after she married Tywin she wanted nothing to do with Aerys anymore if she had a earlier relationship with him or maybe if she did not like maybe she was scared of Aerys so she did seldom return to King's landing to not be around him. She would't want anybody to question her children's parentage, something i think would have pleased Aerys if he could show the realm that Tywin could not even satisfy his own wife, that Tywin was less than a man.

- If she had a affair with Aerys it might be the reason Tywin was appoined as hand not that Aerys and Tywin had been childhood friends.

- Maybe she rejected him, and later he forced him self upon her and Tyrion was born?

- Jaime and Cersei are incestous a Targaryen trait could this come from Aerys? I don't think so i think that either Joanna has some Valyrian heritage, something random happened to make Cersei and Jaime develop this relationship or that someone like Maggy the Frog gave them some love potion. There have been some theories that Sybell used a love potion on Jeyne and Robb. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jeyne_Westerling/Theories

- Other

Why did Aerys have a thing for Joanna?

-  She was attractive

- To spite Tywin

- Maybe Joanna has some unknown Targaryen/Blackfyre heritage? Suggestion's/Theories:

     1. If Marla Prester was born a Targaryen and later married a Prester, would she have kept the name after her husbands passing? Would she have been married as Marla Targaryen or Marla Prester to Jason Lannister?

     2. Could Joanna have some hidden Targ ancestry from House Plumm? http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Viserys_Plumm

     3. Maybe she had some hidden Targ ancestry derived from Vaella the lackwit daughter of Daeron, Egg's older brother. Thou the age does not fit with her being exactly twice his age...

     4. Other Targaryens could have been http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Daenora_Targaryen Aerion's widow.

     5. Or a decendant of another Targaryen in some other way?

- Other

Did Joanna intend to marry Jaime to Elia, and if so why?

- Elia was weak and sicly and allthou she was a Martell i think that it weakened her chances of good marriage. Elia was also older than Jaime. I think that Rhaella, Joanna and the princess of Dorne intended to marry Jaime to Elia, Cersei to Rhaegar in order to create an alliance of sort, maybe to overthrow Aerys and sit Rhaegar on the ironthrone. Also Elia was 9 years older than Jaime.

- Other

Jaime's Joanna dream, what did it mean or what was it?

- Was it Bloodraven messing with Jaime's head?

- Was Joanna contacting Jaime thru a glass candle or obsidian candle? But is she not dead? https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/219cev/spoilers_all_joanna_lannister_has_obsidian_candles/

- Other

What i think happened between Joanna and Aerys

- Had a affair willingly with Aerys

- After she married Tywin she wanted nothing to do with Aerys

- Aerys was jealus that Joanna gave Tywin two beutiful strong healthy twins, Aerys said "I appear to have married the wrong woman" when he recieved message of Jaime and Cersei's birth. I also think that Aerys hoped that Jaime was his son as Jaime was a capeble fit young man, and he took Jaime into the kingsguard to robb Tywin of his worthy heir. "Sorry i think that Tyrion will never become lord anything much less Casterly Rock"

- Aerys raped Joanna or used glamour to conceal himself and put Tyrion in her. Another possibility could be that Joanna aborted all of Aerys's babies, like Cersei chose to have Jaime's children and removed Robert's so Tyrion could be Tywin's.

- Other

Sources:

- http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Joanna_Lannister

- http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Marla_Prester

- http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jason_Lannister_(son_of_Gerold)

- http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Tywin_Lannister

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Vaella_Targaryen_(daughter_of_Daeron)

http://joannalannister.tumblr.com/post/47183178804/liberties-at-the-bedding "This is just a webpage, opinonated"

[redtree]

I think she was a social climber like Alicent Hightower but less weapon of choice, she had an affair with Aerys in order to furthering her chance to be a queen but Aerys was ordered to married Rhaella and that was the end of the affair. I suppose she could be Aerys's mistress but she was too smart for that. Seeing that she no longer had a chance to be queen, she settled to be the 2nd best, wife of the wealthiest and 2nd most powerful man in Westeros. She was raped in KL and resulted in Tyrion

[HouseFossoway]

When trying to discern the character of Joanna, it's really important to remember that Tywin fell in love with her.

Considering Tywin has refused to remarry, I think it's safe to say that Tywin really did love her for who she was, and wasn't just marrying her for her looks and/or birth.

Tywin also has somewhat of a negative view of women he considers gold-diggers. Just look at how he treated Tysha, or his father's lovers. So I really don't think that Tywin would have fallen in love with Joanna if Joanna was just a social climber. Tywin is way too smart to be fooled by acting.

Joanna might have loved Aerys at one point, but I believe she actually loved Tywin, and wasn't using him.

[redtree]

12 minutes ago, HouseFossoway said:

When trying to discern the character of Joanna, it's really important to remember that Tywin fell in love with her.

Considering Tywin has refused to remarry, I think it's safe to say that Tywin really did love her for who she was, and wasn't just marrying her for her looks and/or birth.

Tywin also has somewhat of a negative view of women he considers gold-diggers. Just look at how he treated Tysha, or his father's lovers. So I really don't think that Tywin would have fallen in love with Joanna if Joanna was just a social climber. Tywin is way too smart to be fooled by acting.

Joanna might have loved Aerys at one point, but I believe she actually loved Tywin, and wasn't using him.

Joanna was born a Lannister, that alone should've affect how Tywin saw her, a plus point, and i believe that she was an intelligent woman not just a pretty face. She was Tywin's confidante and he didn't mind to be ruled by her in CR so that speaks highly of her wits. It's possible that she covered her past just like Alicent Hightower covered hers with Daemon. 

And yeah if she was trying to get it on with Aerys it means she climbed her way up, just as she did with Tywin. She was a cousin of lesser branch 

[norwaywolf123]

1 hour ago, redtree said:

Joanna was born a Lannister, that alone should've affect how Tywin saw her, a plus point, and i believe that she was an intelligent woman not just a pretty face. She was Tywin's confidante and he didn't mind to be ruled by her in CR so that speaks highly of her wits. It's possible that she covered her past just like Alicent Hightower covered hers with Daemon. 

And yeah if she was trying to get it on with Aerys it means she climbed her way up, just as she did with Tywin. She was a cousin of lesser branch 

What do you mean Alicent Hightower covered her past with Daemon Targaryen?

[redtree]

1 hour ago, norwaywolf123 said:

What do you mean Alicent Hightower covered her past with Daemon Targaryen?

Daemon swiped Alicent's v-card and just left her afterwards, this was when Viserys 1 hadn't declared that Rhaenyra was his heir so most considered Daemon as the next in line. Otto Hightower became so angry that he suggested Viserys 1 to make Rhaenyra his heir instead of Daemon

[norwaywolf123]

31 minutes ago, redtree said:

Daemon swiped Alicent's v-card and just left her afterwards, this was when Viserys 1 hadn't declared that Rhaenyra was his heir so most considered Daemon as the next in line. Otto Hightower became so angry that he suggested Viserys 1 to make Rhaenyra his heir instead of Daemon

KK

[norwaywolf123]

3 hours ago, HouseFossoway said:

When trying to discern the character of Joanna, it's really important to remember that Tywin fell in love with her.

Considering Tywin has refused to remarry, I think it's safe to say that Tywin really did love her for who she was, and wasn't just marrying her for her looks and/or birth.

Tywin also has somewhat of a negative view of women he considers gold-diggers. Just look at how he treated Tysha, or his father's lovers. So I really don't think that Tywin would have fallen in love with Joanna if Joanna was just a social climber. Tywin is way too smart to be fooled by acting.

Joanna might have loved Aerys at one point, but I believe she actually loved Tywin, and wasn't using him.

But what would Tywin think of marrying a girl no longer a maiden?

[Winter Rose Crown]

1 hour ago, redtree said:

Daemon swiped Alicent's v-card and just left her afterwards, this was when Viserys 1 hadn't declared that Rhaenyra was his heir so most considered Daemon as the next in line. Otto Hightower became so angry that he suggested Viserys 1 to make Rhaenyra his heir instead of Daemon

What? I thought rhaenyra was made heir when daemon was made snide remarks about the "heir for a minute" when viserys's wife and son died in childbirth.

[Sigella]

1 hour ago, norwaywolf123 said:

But what would Tywin think of marrying a girl no longer a maiden?

Firstly, its not as black and white as V-card vs no v-card. If hardly anyone knew, no rampant gossip going around etc.., Who's to say?

Secondly, no one beats house Lannister in keeping up appearances... Even if Tywin personally saw her as "spoiled" but was made to marry her anyways - do you really think we'd know about it?

Thirdly, he might have seen her as spoiled but fallen in love with her all the same.

[redtree]

15 minutes ago, Winter Rose Crown said:

What? I thought rhaenyra was made heir when daemon was made snide remarks about the "heir for a minute" when viserys's wife and son died in childbirth.

Yes, Daemon took Alicent's v-card before Aemma Arryn died and he was still considered Viserys's heir. It wasn't an instant process when Otto pushed Rhaenyra ahead of Daemon 

[norwaywolf123]

51 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Firstly, its not as black and white as V-card vs no v-card. If hardly anyone knew, no rampant gossip going around etc.., Who's to say?

Secondly, no one beats house Lannister in keeping up appearances... Even if Tywin personally saw her as "spoiled" but was made to marry her anyways - do you really think we'd know about it?

Thirdly, he might have seen her as spoiled but fallen in love with her all the same.

Do you think Jaime&Cersei and/or Tyrion are Aerys's?

Hypotheticly, how do you think Tywin was made to marry her? Against his will?

[norwaywolf123]

1 hour ago, Winter Rose Crown said:

What? I thought rhaenyra was made heir when daemon was made snide remarks about the "heir for a minute" when viserys's wife and son died in childbirth.

Maybe Daemon took Alicents virginity and did not marry her after as Otto had hoped so Hightower pushed Daemon out with rumors like the heir for a minute?

[norwaywolf123]

On 8.4.2016 at 3:57 PM, HouseFossoway said:

When trying to discern the character of Joanna, it's really important to remember that Tywin fell in love with her.

Considering Tywin has refused to remarry, I think it's safe to say that Tywin really did love her for who she was, and wasn't just marrying her for her looks and/or birth.

Tywin also has somewhat of a negative view of women he considers gold-diggers. Just look at how he treated Tysha, or his father's lovers. So I really don't think that Tywin would have fallen in love with Joanna if Joanna was just a social climber. Tywin is way too smart to be fooled by acting.

Joanna might have loved Aerys at one point, but I believe she actually loved Tywin, and wasn't using him.

What do you thing of the Joanna Targaryen theories?

[norwaywolf123]

Anybody have any good potentiall Joanna Targaryen theories?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

On 8/4/2016 at 4:21 PM, redtree said:

I think she was a social climber like Alicent Hightower but less weapon of choice, she had an affair with Aerys in order to furthering her chance to be a queen but Aerys was ordered to married Rhaella and that was the end of the affair. I suppose she could be Aerys's mistress but she was too smart for that. Seeing that she no longer had a chance to be queen, she settled to be the 2nd best, wife of the wealthiest and 2nd most powerful man in Westeros. She was raped in KL and resulted in Tyrion

Do you actually have anything from the text to suggest all those things? I do dislike her but still I find all those things more like a fan fiction rather that text.

[Sigella]

20 hours ago, norwaywolf123 said:

Do you think Jaime&Cersei and/or Tyrion are Aerys's?

Hypotheticly, how do you think Tywin was made to marry her? Against his will?

No. (maybe Tyrion, but not the other two)

Probably psychologically pressured and threatened to be cut off. If you think he'd turn down lordship and great wealth for honor, you'd better think again.

[norwaywolf123]

10 minutes ago, Sigella said:

No. (maybe Tyrion, but not the other two)

Probably psychologically pressured and threatened to be cut off. If you think he'd turn down lordship and great wealth for honor, you'd better think again.

1.

I aggre with you on the Jaime&Cersei aswell as Tyrion Parentage, but i do lean more heavily into that Tyrion is infact Tywins. I think all of Tywins children are tywins.

2.

- Jaime or Tyrion?

- I think that what Tyrion wants most is to be rocognised for his abillities and achivments not riches.

[redtree]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Do you actually have anything from the text to suggest all those things? I do dislike her but still I find all those things more like a fan fiction rather that text.

When there's a smoke there's fire. Young Aerys as the prince of dragonstone was described as a charming guy, he hadn't started forcing women to sleep with him, even Barristan knows that he wanted her and he made no secret of it. Off course Pycelle denied but then again it's Pycelle, the ultimate Tywin's fanboy. Also Rhaella did not approve of her husband "turning my ladies into his whores" and soon after that Joanna got dimissed abruptly. Notice that Rhaella used the word whore to describe her at that time, not victim of rape or something like that, seems to me that she was willing at first

 

And then 272 when she visited KL and Aerys made fun of her breasts, i think she was forced because, well, who really want to have sex with the guy who just humiliated you in front of public ? No one

[Jon's Queen Consort]

19 minutes ago, redtree said:

When there's a smoke there's fire.

True, but that doesn't mean that Joanna did something like those you have said.

20 minutes ago, redtree said:

even Barristan knows that he wanted her and he made no secret of it.

Which doesn't mean that she wanted him.

Nothing from what you have said prove that Joanna was a social climber who married Tywin only because she didn't married Aerys.