Targaryen + non-Targaryen children always favor the non-Targ parent?

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

I've proposed before (an idea more than a true theory) that Harry is descended from Maegor (Aerion's son) through his Hardyng father.  Maegor's grandmother was Alys Arryn (not Jon Arryn's sister - another Alys), so it's likely that she took him under her wing after Aerion's death, possibly even marrying him off to a Vale house.  Maegor has a daughter, who marries a Hardyng and gives birth to Harry's father  (So, Maegor -> daughter -> Harry's father -> Harry)  The ages would work; each parent would have the child around 16-17 years old, which is about the Westerosi average. 

LF slips the idea to the right people that Lysa Arryn committed adultery on her husband, maybe even implicating himself.  Harry's blond hair and blue eyes, in addition to him supposedly having Jon Arryn's look, leads people to believe that Sweetrobin is not Jon Arryn's son.  An investigation takes place.  The Vale discovers that Harry's coloring is from his Targaryen ancestory.  Once his Targaryen heritage becomes public knowledge, voila!  The Vale supports Harry's claim to the throne without LF actively doing so.  At least, that would be his plan.  Then comes Aegon...

THAT is some good homework! I will have to remember this when the Winds comes around.

[Shuvuuia]

57 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Egg and his siblings were also from a non-Targ match and were Targaryen in appearance. Although I suppose without knowing whether his mother had silver hair and purple eyes (not all Daynes do I don't think) we can't really draw conclusions from that.

didn't Daeron who is the eldest have sandy hair and common looks? (I think we know only looks of him, Egg and Aerion. Not of their sisters and even maester Aemon, who knows how he looked in his youth.) And it's unclear if Daeron had his looks from his mother or from more distant relatives or if it was even decided who their mother was when the HK was written. Because Daeron's looks is more of a plot device in the novel, so he isn't recognised as a prince (and to accentuate his character).

Also Valarr looks almost like Baelor but with one or two Targ traits 

[Isobel Harper]

38 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

I did consider that, and agree it's a reason to question it. But, the way I read it at least, the streaks of white are indicators of her age, and the silver is her natural colour. If I were describing a dark haired person going grey, I would likely say their hear was black streaked with grey, for example. Also, black hair would be more likely to turn grey with age, rather than silver or white, wouldn't it?

 

33 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This is, I think, where GRRM's wonderfully frustrating wordplays come in to mess with us. Just as not describing certain people/parents.  If you think of a good looking older man, you tend to say he's a "Silver Fox", and that silver mostly comes from having dark hair when younger.

But in this case I read it like you do, the silver is the natural color and the white is the age.

"Silver" can also be used to describe greying hair, in real life and in the series.  Here is Catelyn's description of LF in AGoT

He had a little pointed chin beard now, and threads of silver in his dark hair, though he was still shy of thirty.

Either could be possible.  She could have always had silver and white hair, OR she could have had dark hair and the writer (of TRP and TPatQ) could have been biased against Rhaenyra and left any excuses to Rhaenyra's son's features out of the texts.

[The Fattest Leech]

17 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

didn't Daeron who is the eldest have sandy hair and common looks? (I think we know only looks of him, Egg and Aerion. Not of their sisters and even maester Aemon, who knows how he looked in his youth.) And it's unclear if Daeron had his looks from his mother or from more distant relatives or if it was even decided who their mother was when the HK was written. Because Daeron's looks is more of a plot device in the novel, so he isn't recognised as a prince (and to accentuate his character).

Also Valarr looks almost like Baelor but with one or two Targ traits 

Yes, you are correct. His mother was a Dayne and their hair tends to run from silver-blonde to dark, and eyes from blue to violet... like most Valyrians. And he was first born. That is a big part of what I am thinking.

Hmm. Are you thinking this is an exception or a hole in the theory? I am open to either because I would like to keep this as a discussion and not try to force anyone into thinking this.

"Daeron had sallow skin, sandy brown hair and a blonde beard"

[The Fattest Leech]

24 minutes ago, Shuvuuia said:

didn't Daeron who is the eldest have sandy hair and common looks? (I think we know only looks of him, Egg and Aerion. Not of their sisters and even maester Aemon, who knows how he looked in his youth.) And it's unclear if Daeron had his looks from his mother or from more distant relatives or if it was even decided who their mother was when the HK was written. Because Daeron's looks is more of a plot device in the novel, so he isn't recognised as a prince (and to accentuate his character).

Also Valarr looks almost like Baelor but with one or two Targ traits 

Valarr is a great example of the mix. I am adding him to the OP. Thank you.

[Isobel Harper]

49 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

But don't the Starks have features that go waaay back, like other Valyrians do? This, it seems, is the literary way of genetic DNA testing. To have things so cut and dry as a way to protect the plot and world build.

What got me started on this was thinking of Jon (again) and how Ned was able to hide the baby so easily. It would not have been so easy if Jon was born looking Targaryen Jr. Since Jon is a major driver in the story, then it seems like the others are just backstory developed to help hide Jon because it has been shown historically to have happened this way, meaning, the first born child of a Targ-mix looks predominantly like the non-Targ parent.

I don't want to sound like I am debating. Just trying to piece it all together. I will update my OP list in a few minutes to add to the "known" list.

I've always assumed that brown hair and grey eyes have always been a feature inherent in the Starks.  Although this assumption might be incorrect, if the assumption is correct we do see exceptions.  Just look at the current Stark children.  Only Jon and Arya have dark hair and grey eyes - and Jon might not be Eddard's son.  If blond hair and blue eyes is and always has been a common feature amongst the Arryns, there have likely been some exceptions.

[The Fattest Leech]

8 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

I've always assumed that brown hair and grey eyes have always been a feature inherent in the Starks.  Although this assumption might be incorrect, if the assumption is correct we do see exceptions.  Just look at the current Stark children.  Only Jon and Arya have dark hair and grey eyes - and Jon might not be Eddard's son.  If blond hair and blue eyes is and always has been a common feature amongst the Arryns, there have likely been some exceptions.

I completely agree. I have been doing a little more reading on the Arryns and I can't find too much info about their looks. Maybe it's not that important??? The most I can find are the little things that equate to how people say, "the Stark looks". Blonde and blue seem to be the most prevalent info for Arryns, there's just not a lot of it.

Maybe what I am seeing in my OP is that the first born child to a non-Targaryen mother and a Targagryen father will take the non-Targ looks first? I would have to go back and look through them again.

[Lord Varys]

That theory doesn't make much sense.

Aegon II was Alicent Hightower's firstborn child yet he looked pretty much like his father if you check the description of him George gave to Amok, and actually consult his portrait.

Rhaenyra had distinct Targaryen features despite the fact that her mother was half-Arryn, and her three eldest son all had no Targaryen features at all.

Princess Rhaenys had a Baratheon mother but had Valyrian features - but we don't know whether Jocelyn Baratheon actually had black hair. It could very well be that she, too, inherited Valyrian features from her own mother, Alyssa Velaryon. There is no guarantee that all Baratheons ever had black hair.

[The Fattest Leech]

15 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That theory doesn't make much sense.

1) Aegon II was Alicent Hightower's firstborn child yet he looked pretty much like his father if you check the description of him George gave to Amok, and actually consult his portrait.

2) Rhaenyra had distinct Targaryen features despite the fact that her mother was half-Arryn, and her three eldest son all had no Targaryen features at all.

3) Princess Rhaenys had a Baratheon mother but had Valyrian features - but we don't know whether Jocelyn Baratheon actually had black hair. It could very well be that she, too, inherited Valyrian features from her own mother, Alyssa Velaryon. There is no guarantee that all Baratheons ever had black hair.

1) Yes. We talked about that one and there is probably a little symbolism that he is the reverse of what I am trying to develop. It shows in him by way of personality description and the development of a new, personal sigil. That coul dvery well be part of the ongoing identity crisis so many characters in the series have.

"Aegon resembled his father in appearance, though not in personality."

"During the Dance of the Dragons, his faction used his personal heraldry as their battle-flag"

 

2) Rhaenyra was not the first conceived or born. She was merely the first to survive into adulthood. There was at least one living before her and however many miscarriages. My question is based on the first child of Targaryen/non-Targaryen baby making union.

"Aemma became pregnant multiple times in the early years of her marriage. She suffered multiple miscarriages, and gave birth to a son who eventually died in the cradle. In 97 AC, Aemma gave birth to a healthy daughter, Princess Rhaenyra. Aemma and Viserys both adored their only living child.^[2]

3) Princess Rhaenys, the Queen Who Never was, could also be an identity crisis situation. We discussed her a bit and the chance that her silver hair could possibly be the black Baratheon aging into the "silver fox" color that comes with age. The most recent description of her we have is when she is "older".  The silver and white could just be her Valyrian side dashed with a little white age? I agree that we don't know too much about her mothers looks. But Rhaenys definitely has the Baratheon attitude. Not sure about all of the Baratheons physical characteristics and there is enough variation between the three brothers we have seen on page to know it can vary greatly.

All of this is what we are here to talk about.

[Isobel Harper]

4 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I completely agree. I have been doing a little more reading on the Arryns and I can't find too much info about their looks. Maybe it's not that important??? The most I can find are the little things that equate to how people say, "the Stark looks". Blonde and blue seem to be the most prevalent info for Arryns, there's just not a lot of it.

Maybe what I am seeing in my OP is that the first born child to a non-Targaryen mother and a Targagryen father will take the non-Targ looks first? I would have to go back and look through them again.

As someone stated earlier, Viserys I and Alicent Hightower had a Valyrian featured son.  He appears to be the only exception to the rule, that we know of anyway. 

Daeron II and Mariah's marriage produced four sons.  The first son, Baelor, had darker features.  The rest of the sons had Valyrian features.  After the Targaryen/Martell marriage, all other Targ father and non-Targ mother marriages follow this pattern.  (Well, the only known marriages outside of House Targaryen after this were Targ men and non-Targ women.  Vaella, Shaera, and Raelle certainly married but we don't know to whom or what their children looked like.)  Perhaps dilution of Targaryen blood has something to do with it.  Perhaps before the Targaryen/Martell marriage, Valyrian features were a little more prominent/inheritable?  Baratheon, Arryn, and Hightower married into House Targaryen before this time, but only Arryn blood stayed in the main bloodline, so dilution was minimal.

[The Fattest Leech]

46 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That theory doesn't make much sense.

Aegon II was Alicent Hightower's firstborn child yet he looked pretty much like his father if you check the description of him George gave to Amok, and actually consult his portrait.

Rhaenyra had distinct Targaryen features despite the fact that her mother was half-Arryn, and her three eldest son all had no Targaryen features at all.

Princess Rhaenys had a Baratheon mother but had Valyrian features - but we don't know whether Jocelyn Baratheon actually had black hair. It could very well be that she, too, inherited Valyrian features from her own mother, Alyssa Velaryon. There is no guarantee that all Baratheons ever had black hair.

Forgot to mention this part. Sorry.

All three of her sons had brown hair, a trait that came from neither her or Laenor, which lead to everyone suspecting she was cheating and the kids were bastards of the brown haired Harwin Strong.

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

1) Yes. We talked about that one and there is probably a little symbolism that he is the reverse of what I am trying to develop. It shows in him by way of personality description and the development of a new, personal sigil. That coul dvery well be part of the ongoing identity crisis so many characters in the series have.

"Aegon resembled his father in appearance, though not in personality."

"During the Dance of the Dragons, his faction used his personal heraldry as their battle-flag"

 

2) Rhaenyra was not the first conceived or born. She was merely the first to survive into adulthood. There was at least one living before her and however many miscarriages. My question is based on the first child of Targaryen/non-Targaryen baby making union.

"Aemma became pregnant multiple times in the early years of her marriage. She suffered multiple miscarriages, and gave birth to a son who eventually died in the cradle. In 97 AC, Aemma gave birth to a healthy daughter, Princess Rhaenyra. Aemma and Viserys both adored their only living child.^[2]

3) Princess Rhaenys, the Queen Who Never was, could also be an identity crisis situation. We discussed her a bit and the chance that her silver hair could possibly be the black Baratheon aging into the "silver fox" color that comes with age. The most recent description of her we have is when she is "older".  The silver and white could just be her Valyrian side dashed with a little white age? I agree that we don't know too much about her mothers looks. But Rhaenys definitely has the Baratheon attitude. Not sure about all of the Baratheons physical characteristics and there is enough variation between the three brothers we have seen on page to know it can vary greatly.

All of this is what we are here to talk about.

Well, but we don't know if there were any miscarriages or stillbirths in many of those cases. Was Baelor Breakspear the son of Mariah's first pregnancy? Was Prince Daeron truly Dyanna Dayne's first child? Did Betha Blackwood have any miscarriages before she gave birth to Prince Duncan?

Thanks to TPatQ and TRP we have a little bit of insight into the Targaryen pregnancies and births of that era, but we lack sufficient information to make comparisons to other eras.

Oh, and if Prince Aenys was indeed not the Conqueror's seed then his father must have had Valyrian features since he had the silver-gold hairs and the purple eyes.

The problem with Princess Rhaenys is that if we assume she had black hair then there is little reason to that her children would have such distinct features as they had. I mean, the Baratheons don't practice incest and if their seed is so strong then all the descendants through the male and female lines of the Durrandons and Baratheons should have the same black hair. But this is clearly not the case, so the best idea there is to assume that Rhaenys didn't have any Baratheon traits. After all, she had much more Targaryen blood than Corlys Velaryon whose most recent Targaryen ancestor is unfortunately unknown to us.

[The Fattest Leech]

Ok. If anyone is still following this theory, I just updated the OP with new info and broke down some categories.

Let me know what you think... even if you think this is all wrong?

@Lord Varys I tried to incorporate some of your ideas as well. Take a look if you want.

Cheers to all

[Isobel Harper]

(TLDR at bottom.)

I meant to reference this earlier, but I once theorized that albinism of some sort was the cause of the seeming dominance of silver hair and purple eyes in Targaryens.  (See link to thread here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/136066-the-targaryen-recessive-gene-condition/ I've refined the theory a little bit since then, but the idea is the same.)  In the days of Old Valyria, every Valyrian had silver/white hair and purple eyes.  This was due to an albinism trait inherited throughout the Valyrians.  Reference House Velaryon and the Lysene.  (Note: Non-dragonriding Valryian families carried the albinism trait, but not the dragonriding trait.)  I think House Targaryen marrying into Westerosi houses diluted the albino trait.  Keep in mind that I think this albino trait involves multiple genes, not one single gene.

 

Part of my theory predicts that Rhaenyra's first three children were Laenor's sons.  Rhaenyra and Laenor's children had a non-Targaryen grandmother and great-grandmother who could have had brown hair and brown eyes.  (We stated earlier that blond hair and blue eyes might be the common coloring of House Arryn, BUT there can still be exceptions, like most of the Stark children in the main series.) 

Since Rhaenyra's mother and Laenor's grandmother were non-Targaryens/non-albino trait carriers, Rhaenyra and Laenor had a heterogeneous albinism trait: enough for them to have silver hair and purple eyes, but not their children.  I'm thinking the albinism trait is dominant: AA=albinism, aa=no albinism.  Aa produces albinism, but leads to the potential to not carrying it to a child: Rhaenyra and Laenor were "Aa."  Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey were aa.

Dragonriding, unlike the albinism trait, is recessive.  (dd=dragonrider, dN or NN=not a dragonrider)  However, possessing AA or Aa would make "dN" a dragonrider.  Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey were aa, but since both their parents were dragonriders, they inherited dd genes and were dragonriders.  (Or just "d?"  Some theorize that the dragonriding gene(s) are X-chromosome linked genes.  Anywho, that's a topic for another day...)

None of Rhaenyra and Laenor's children survived to have children of their own.  Therefore, their more diluted albinism was not passed down.  Rhaenyra's children with Daemon continued the Targaryen family.  Daemon Targaryen had no non-Valyrian (and, therefore, no non-albinism carriers) in his bloodline.  So, Rhaenyra-Aa and Daemon-AA.

The next non-Targaryen marriage was Viserys II's to Lara Rogare.  She would not possess any dragonriding genes herself, BUT could potentially strengthen the albinism trait. 

The next non-Targaryen marriages is where it starts getting tricky and the issue convoluted.  There's the potential for co-dominance, like Elaena Targaryen, Valarr Targaryen, and Gerold Dayne, who have two different hair colors.  I'll tackle the marriage from Daeron II on with a simple summary.  The albinism trait remained (more) dominant than the first children born for some reason.  For example, Baelor Breakspear=aa, but Aerys, Rhaegel, and Maekar=Aa.

Rhaegar: Since Rhaenys had her mother's coloring (and Jon his), and Aegon Rhaegar's coloring, I assume Rhaegar was Aa.

Tyrion: IF chimeric twin theories are true...  Rewind to Aegon V and Betha Blackwood.  Aegon was Aa and Betha aa.  All of his children inherited the black hair and black eye genes from Betha.  Duncan was aa, but the rest of the children Aa; hence them having silver-hair and purple eyes.  Jaehaerys and Raelle were Aa and had black hair and black eye genes.  Aerys was also Aa and had black hair and black eye genes.  Joanna was aa.  Therefore, Tyrion's "twin" is aa and has black hair and black eye(s).

Bloodraven: Inherited albinism trait from his father and warging genes from his mother.  Is the most powerful warg we've seen in the series.

TLDR:
Albinism is a trait that affects dragonriding.  Dragonriding is a separate trait, but made potentially more potent by the albinism trait.  I'll try to simplify ala Mandel, but keep in mind that more than two genes might be involved.

AA=albinism, aa=no albinism.  Since albinism is a dominant trait, Aa produces albinism but leads to the potential of not carrying albinism to offspring.

Dragonriding is a recessive trait.  d=dragonrider trait, N=non-dragonrider trait 

dd=dragonrider, dN=not a dragonrider, NN=not a dragonrider.

However, with the albinism trait (AA or Aa), dN produces a dragonrider.

Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey were Laenor's sons.

[Dragon's Daughter]

In the House of the Undying Dany saw a tall, Dothraki-looking man with Targaryen colouring she assumed to be Rhaego.  Since this was just a vision we don't know with certainty if it was accurate, but given most of the other visions I'd assume that is what Rhaego would look like had he not been (cursed and?) stillborn.

[The Fattest Leech]

24 minutes ago, Dragon's Daughter said:

In the House of the Undying Dany saw a tall, Dothraki-looking man with Targaryen colouring she assumed to be Rhaego.  Since this was just a vision we don't know with certainty if it was accurate, but given most of the other visions I'd assume that is what Rhaego would look like had he not been (cursed and?) stillborn.

I actually did consider listing this, a few times, but decided it would not truly fit because, as you mentioned, it was just a vision and probably a simple symbolism.

Thank you for the mention, though. If you see anything else in your reads, please let me know.

[The Fattest Leech]

15 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

(TLDR at bottom.)

I meant to reference this earlier, but I once theorized that albinism of some sort was the cause of the seeming dominance of silver hair and purple eyes in Targaryens.  (See link to thread here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/136066-the-targaryen-recessive-gene-condition/ I've refined the theory a little bit since then, but the idea is the same.) 

~snipped~

Wow! You took it to a level that I had not considered. You are definitely one of the smarter cookies on the forum. I appreciate your contribution.

I never thought to associate the genetic physical attributes to dragonriding for this theory. I will have to think on this for a little bit to see how it works with what I am thinking. I still think there is something to what I am theorizing because it is just too convenient a way to hide certain people in plain sight... with a little history to back it up. That is in no way to discount what you say and I think that the DNA strength thinning out as the generations mix and time goes on is very plausible.

From the literary device side, to me, if this theory is true, then it was maybe retconned a tad as the world of ASOIAF  grew (and grew) and GRRM realized it way a legit way to add plot and mystery. I am sure he only went back so far in the histories of each birth because I can tell you that after me doing this research myself, it gets confusing as hell

[The Fattest Leech]

Just want to add this quote from GRRM that started my thought process that not everything is planned out from the beginning and some minor details do change or pop-up along the way, especially if they lend credence to the main story or characters. I think this could be the reason why some of the more obscure Targaryen mixes either don't have a described physical appearance, or they may be a one-off from the norm closer in history.

"I have no plans for Grey Worm's race or personal history to become important at this time, though I do reserve the right to change my mind. Sometimes the muse plays strange tricks on me." http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Concerning_Grey_Worm

[Lady Lark of the NorthWood]

And Young Griff/Aegon has the Targaryen features, which is why his hair is kept dyed. In the Dance With Dragons chapter titled "The Lost Lord', Septa Lemore is talking to Griff. "We have gone to great lengths to keep Prince Aegon hidden all these years," Lemore reminded him. "The time will come for him to wash his hair and declare himself, I know, but that time is not now. Not to a camp of sellswords."

[The Fattest Leech]

2 hours ago, Lady Lark of the NorthWood said:

And Young Griff/Aegon has the Targaryen features, which is why his hair is kept dyed. In the Dance With Dragons chapter titled "The Lost Lord', Septa Lemore is talking to Griff. "We have gone to great lengths to keep Prince Aegon hidden all these years," Lemore reminded him. "The time will come for him to wash his hair and declare himself, I know, but that time is not now. Not to a camp of sellswords."

Hey. This is good. I will add it to the main post. Thank you

I just checked and I did have Aegon listed under the Rhaenys (daughter of Rhaegar) point. Aegon is the second-born, so his Targ looks are not in question like the first-born are for this case, but I did add a few extra details to Aegon.

Thanks for the contribution.