Jump to content
The Fattest Leech

Targaryen + non-Targaryen children always favor the non-Targ parent?

Recommended Posts

Ceebs reading the whole thread - I'm generally not a fan of these genetics theories. But I don't actually see a theory here. What would be the purpose of all these pseudo-genetic details? That there's someone who ain't really Targaryen?

Edited by Illyrio Mo'Parties

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Illyrio Mo'Parties said:

Ceebs reading the whole thread - I'm generally not a fan of these genetics theories. But I don't actually see a theory here. What would be the purpose of all these pseudo-genetic details? That there's someone who ain't really Targaryen?

Yeah, it's really not a theory anymore, especially after Balticon. It was just a way to be able to hide or expose children, especially important ones. It is more of a code. 

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Following because I read your SSM regarding asking him about this idea and was intrigued. Can't wait to read the whole thing. 

Thanks! To be upfront, I had no idea whatsoever that my post became a SSM until I was googling a few terms and came across it online. I tried my hardest to have it changed, or removed, (I hate the attention it gives) but alas, fine print :(. It was a good conversation and he tried to trick me, but I had my note card in hand so I wouldn't forget anything, so eventually he laughed a little and told me about the Fire&Blood book coming out. 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Hey. This is good. I will add it to the main post. Thank you :thumbsup:

I just checked and I did have Aegon listed under the Rhaenys (daughter of Rhaegar) point. Aegon is the second-born, so his Targ looks are not in question like the first-born are for this case, but I did add a few extra details to Aegon.

Thanks for the contribution.

You're welcome. I enjoy doing research, although I'll admit that Dany could've taken the Iron Throne in the time it took me to find that passage. I really need to start taking notes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Lady Lark of the NorthWood said:

You're welcome. I enjoy doing research, although I'll admit that Dany could've taken the Iron Throne in the time it took me to find that passage. I really need to start taking notes.

Do you know of the online search site? It is a life and time saver.  

https://asearchoficeandfire.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@The Fattest Leech

I case that you end up interacting with George directly in the foreseeable future there are a few Targaryen-related questions I'd like an answer to, most notably:

1. A brief summary how Aenys I's son Prince Aegon got a hold of his father's dragon Quicksilver. When Aenys I died his children Aegon and Rhaena were besieged in Crakehall Castle in the West and Quicksilver should have been with Aenys on Dragonstone.

2. Connected to the alleged age of the dragon Vermithor: Did Aegon and Rhaena (and their younger brother, Viserys) have any dragons before bonding with Dreamfyre and Quicksilver, respectively? I find the idea very odd that Aenys' heir Prince Aegon shouldn't have had a dragon of his own before he claimed his father's dragon. Especially not if Jaehaerys and Alysanne got their own dragons.

3. What happened to Aegon and Rhaena's twin girls Aerea and Rhalla? Did they survive Maegor's reign and if so, who did they marry thereafter? Were the nine lesser claimants at the Great Council descended from the twins?

4. Did Jaehaerys' elder sister Rhaena remarry after the death Maegor?

5. What the hell happened to Prince Aegon, the brother of Viserys I and Daemon? Is he 'the Ape Prince' (the Targaryen prince who dressed an ape in his dead son's clothes and always asked lords whether they would want their daughters to marry him) Ser Axell Florent mentioned in ADwD when he tried to humiliate Davos?

6. What about the six daughters of Rhaena Targaryen by Garmund Hightower? Was Garmund the Lord of Oldtown, eldest son of Lord Ormund Hightower who died at Tumbleton? Did their eldest daughter become the Lady of Oldtown? And into what houses married all those girls?

7. We know that Aelinor Penrose, the wife of Aerys I, was a Targaryen cousin. Was she descended from Rhaena and Garmund? And what about the other wives of the sons of Daeron II, especially Jena Dondarrion, the wife of Baelor Breakspear - were they Targaryen cousins, too? The idea that the Prince of Dragonstone could just marry a Dondarrion girl without causing a huge scandal is very odd...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Yeah, it's really not a theory anymore, especially after Balticon. It was just a way to be able to hide or expose children, especially important ones. It is more of a code. 

Thanks! To be upfront, I had no idea whatsoever that my post became a SSM until I was googling a few terms and came across it online. I tried my hardest to have it changed, or removed, (I hate the attention it gives) but alas, fine print :(. It was a good conversation and he tried to trick me, but I had my note card in hand so I wouldn't forget anything, so eventually he laughed a little and told me about the Fire&Blood book coming out. 

I read your entire write up, it was excellent. Thank you for going to the time and effort to provide those of us at the other side of the world the opportunity to get a feel for what it is like at these cons. And a great write up of your interaction with GRRM too. Loads of information can be gleaned from those notes. 

I'm dying to get a good opportunity to read through this thread. But alas the damn obligations of real life keep getting in the way.  I am going to promise myself a sit down and a cuppa at some point. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, I like this theory because it puts to rest all the ideas that Daenerys is not really a Targagaryen. She is the last dragon and moth of dragons. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, you know I've been busy on an essay about Varys's origin and a section of it is about albinism and leukism.

I regard the Valyrian/Targ features as a fantasy form of hypomelanistic albinism: reduced melanin production, but not absolute, so degrees of tanning is possible, including hair being sometimes more blond or even dark blond.

Now some of the arguments against Valyrian features being related to albinism is that nobody seems to have issues with their sight. Brynden Rivers is an absolute (amenalistic) albino, but clearly a fantasy form of albinism, for he should only have blurry vision at best because of his red eyes. Red eyes indicates there is no melanin whatsoever in the epitheleum of iris, which normally acts as a barrier to prevent light from reaching the retina other than through the pupil. If you make the aperture of a camera obscura too big, then you get a blurry image. Bloodraven should not be able to hit a target when shooting arrows. And yet he does. So, George completely ignores acuity issues and certainly deafness that is tied to real world albinism, even in its traditional severest form. If Bloodraven doesn't have eyesight issues, then the real world acuity issues related to albinism can be completely ignored, as much as George ignores it. 

And no, not everyone would end up looking like Bloodraven, because there are less absolute forms. There's albinism only affecting the eyes, not the skin or hair. And there is a temperature sensitive version which allows for normal melanin production in the regions of the body that are cooler: and thus for that person to have dark or brown hair.

Those different RW types of albinism stem from different independent mutations amongst different regions of the world. As an anology it would explain why Daynes and Hightowers have a similar but slightly different phenotype. And thus some families of the First Men are carriers of a FM albinism gene, or even various subtypes of it. 

Now most forms of albinism are recessive.

Does this work out for the Targaryen lineage and your OP?

The Targ lineage starts with Aerion Targaryen and Valaena Velaryon. Both houses are Valyrian houses, but the Velaryons originally were not a dragonlord family and settled on Dragonstone before the Targaryens. The Targaryens have the Valyrian phenotype, the Velaryons less strongly, but certainly after the Doom, the Targaryens and Velaryons intermarried often when the Targs couldn't do sibling marriages. So, the Velaryons can be assumed to be carriers of the genotype, sometimes actually express the phenotype.

Just going by rudimentary mendelian genetics the phenotype will certainly pass on the genes (otherwise they woudln't be the phenotype), while a carrier may or may not pass it on.

I've bolded the first children of a non Valyrian mother, with the exception of Velaryons.

START

  • Aerion Targaryen (V phenotype) + Valaena Velaryon (V carrier or phenotype)
    • Visenya, Aegon I, Rhaenys (all V phenotype)
  •  + unknown woman
    • Orys Baratheon (V carrier): black hair, black eyes

Note: Valanea had a Targaryen mother. That she married Aerion, the head of the Targaryen family, and birthed 3 phenotype Targs, strongly suggests that Valaena herself was phenotype, rather than carrier

1ST GENERATION

Aegon becomes king of the 7K and IT, married to both his sisters and having had a child a with both, while Orys Baratheon wins the marriage to Argella Durrandon by conquest.

  • Aegon I + Visenya (both V phenotypes):
    • Maegor I the Cruel (V phenotype)
  • Aegon I + Rhaenys (both V phenotypes):
    • Aenys I (V phenotype)
  • Orys Baratheon (V carrier) + Argella Durrandon:
    • sons (carrier or no carrier, not phenotype) Baratheon, black of hair and blue eyed

Since recessive phenotypes are certain to pass the genes on, Aegon's incestuous marriages are sure to result in children with the phenotype. It's important to note that the early Baratheon line may be carriers, because Orys may have passed on his carrying gene with some of his children.

2ND GENERATION

  • Maegor I marries several women, including a Hightower, but none have viable children.
  • Aenys I (V phenotype) + Alyssa Velaryon (V carrier or phenotype)
    • Rhaena, Jaehearys I, Alyssane (V phenotypes), Aegon, Viserys, Vaella (V carriers or phenotypes) Targaryen

Alyssa Velaryon's mother was an unknown Targaryen, similar to Valaena Velaryon. It cannot be confirmed that Aegon, Viserys and Vaella were Valyrian phenotypes, but again the fact that she was wed to Aenys I strongly suggests that Alyssa was a Valyrian phenotype as well. Later Alyssa Velaryon married Robar Baratheon, grandson of Orys, after Aenys' death.

  • Alyssa Velaryon (V carrier or phenotype) + Robar Baratheon (possible V carrier)
    • Boremund (likely V carrier if not phenotype) and Jocelyn (V carrier* if not phenotype) Baratheon

If Alyssa was a phenotype then Jocelyn and Boremund were carriers for sure. For confirmation that Jocelyn was at the least a carrier see 4th generation.

3RD GENERATION

  • Rhaena (V phenotype) + Aegon (V carrier or phenotype) Targaryen
    • Twins Aerea and Rhalla Targaryen (V carrier or phenotype): we don't know what they looked like. The eldest of the twins became Maegor I's heirress (over Jaehaerys). We don't know what happened to them after Jaehaerys succesfully gained the throne with Maegor I's death.
  • Jaehaerys I + Alyssane Targaryen (both V phenotypes)
    • Aegon, Alyssa, Aemon, Baelon, Aeryn, Daella, Aeryn, Vaegon, Maegelle, Valerion, Viserra, Gaemon, Saera, Gael (all V phenotypes)

4TH GENERATION

  • Alyssa + Baelon Targaryen (both V phenotypes)
    • Viserys I, Daemon the Rogue Prince, Aegon (all V phenotypes)
  • Aemon Targaryen (V phenotype) + Jocelyn Baratheon (V carrier if not phenotype)
    • Rhaenys Targaryen, the queen who never was (V phenotype)
  • Daella Targaryen (V phenotype) + Rodrik Arryn
    • Aemma Arryn (V carrier)
  • Saera Targaryen (V phenotype) + ?
    • possible bastard child birthed at Lys (V carrier)

In this thread there was discussion whether Rhaenys Targaryen has the Valyrian features or not: whether her grey hair is due to age or Valyrian features. But the Rogue Prince says this:

Quote

[...] the Lady Laena Velaryon, who had just turned twelve. A fiery young maiden, freshly flowered, Lady Laena had inherited the beauty of a true Targaryen from her mother Rhaenys and a bold, adventurous spirit from her father the Sea Snake.

We thus can conclude that Rhaenys looked like a typical Targaryen and thus was a phenotype. This would confirm that Jocelyn was at the very least a carrier.

There is no confirmation that Saera Targaryen had any children. But it is a reasonable speculation that it was a pregnancy that caused her to flee as a novice from the motherhouse across the Narrow Sea. She stayed for a while in Lys. If she was pregnant then she would have given birth to the child there. She moved on after Lys to Volantis where she became the proud owner of a pillow house (brothel). The hypothetical bastards child was either abandoned and left in Lys or raised in Volantis.

5TH GENERATION

  • Viserys I Targaryen (V phenotype) + Aemma Arryn (V carrier)
    • Baelon (V carrier or phenotype), Rhaenyra (V phenotype)
  • Viserys I Targaryen (V phenotype) + Alicent Hightower (H phenotype)
    • Aegon II, Helaena, Aemond, Daeron (all VH phenotype)
  • Daemon Targaryen the Rogue Prince + Rhea Royce: no issue
  • Rhaenys Targaryen (V phenotype) + Corlys Velaryon (V carrier or phenotype)
    • Laenor, Laena (both V phenotypes) Velaryon
  • Corlys Velaryon (V carrier or phenotype) + Marilda of Hull
    • Addam and Alyn of Hull (V carrier), later legitimized by Rhaenyra Targaryen to Velaryons, officially they were claimed to be Laenor's bastard sons, but as Laenor was officiously gay, it is believed Addam and Alyn were actually Corlys's sons rather than grandsons.
  • Brother(s) of Corlys Velaryon (V carrier or phenotype) + unknown women
    • Vaemon Velaryion + 5 brothers (possibly Daeron) (likely V carriers or phenotypes)

Jaehaerys I mistook young Alicent Hightower for his phenotype daughters, especially the runaway Saera Targaryen. It is not known where Alicent got this phenotype from. Manfred Hightower offered a daughter to Aegon I, who declined not to offend his queens. His granddaughter Ceryse Hightower was the first wife of Maegor the Cruel. They had no issue, but Villeneuve's portrait depicts a picture that suggests Ceryse Hightower may already have been a phenotype. This would suggest that the Hightowers and the families they intermarried are carriers of an independent recessive benign albinistic genotype that results in a similar phenotype. That is why I call it phenotype H. With both Viserys and Alicent being phenotypes they pass the genotype V and H respectively on, resulting in a phenotype that matches the Valyrian one, although it is made up of a mix of genotype V and H.

Both Laenor and Laena are confirmed phenotypes. This makes it more than likely that Corlys was a phenotype himself, and if so then Addam and Alyn of Hull were carriers. We can conclude that certainly Addam was a V carrier as it is improbable he would have been able to be a dragonrider otherwise (he didn't use Nettles' tactic)

6TH GENERATION

  • Daemon Targaryen the Rogue Prince + Laena Velaryon (both V phenotype)
    • Baela and Rhaena Targaryen (V phenotypes)
  • Rhaenyra Targaryen + Laenor Velaryon (both V phenotypes)
    • Jacaerys, Lucerys and Joffrey Velaryon (V carriers, not phenotypes): none of Rhaenyra's sons have the Valyrian phenotype, but it is strongly suggestes that they are not Laenor's children, but Ser Harwin Strong (non carrier), especially since Laenor preferred men over women.
  • Rhaenyra  + Daemon Targaryen the Rogue Prince (both V phenotypes)
    • Aegon III and Viserys II (both V phenotypes)
  • Aegon II + Helaena Targaryen (VH phenotypes)
    • Jaehaera and Jaehaerys, Maelor (V, H or VH phenotypes)
  • Aemon Targaryen (VH phenotype) + Alys Rivers (black of hair, could see visions in flames)
    • unknown bastard (V or H carrier)
  • Vaemon Velaryon (possible V carrier or phenotype) + unknown woman
    • sons (possible V carriers or phenotypes), one may be Daeron Velaryon (V carrier or phenotype)

7TH GENERATION

due to the Dance of Dragons most of the children of the 6th generation were killed.

  • Baela Targaryen (V phenotype) + Alyn Oakenfist Velaryon of Hull (V carrier)
    • issue that are ancestors to present day House Velaryon (V carriers or phenotypes)
  • Rhaena Targaryen (V phenotype) + Corwyn Corbray: no issue
  • Rhaena Targaryen (V phenotype) + Garmund Hightower (H carrier or phenotype)
    • six daughters Hightower (VH phenotype)
  • Aegon III (V phenotype) + Jaehaera Targaryen (V, H or VH phenotype): no issue
  • Aegon III + Daenaera Velaryon (both V phenotype)
    • Daeron I the Young Dragon, Baelor I the Blessed, Daena the Defiant, Rhaena, Elaena (V phenotypes)
  • Viserys II + Larra Rogare (both V phenotype)
    • Aegon IV, Aemon the Dragonknight, Naerys Targaryen (V phenotypes)
  • Aliandra Martell + Drazenko Rogare (V carrier or phenotype)
    • not confirmed whether the Princess of Dorne had children by Drazenko. If she did then her children would be likely V carriers.

I posit Daenaera and Larra as V phenotypes, not just carriers. Daenaera had 5 phenotype children. The odds of that happening for a recessive gene if the mother is solely a carrier but not an actual phenotype is pretty much 0 %. Her father Daeron was a cousin to Alyn of Hull (son of Corlys Velaryon), and thus either one of the 6 nephews of Corlys or one of their sons (and therefore very likely without a tongue). As the Velaryon genotype is the Valyrian and Targ related gene this is the ype A.

We have a portrait of Larra Rogare, and confirmed description of silver hair with purple eyes, and she was the daughter of one of the noblest and richest houses from Lys. All her three children by Viserys II are phenotypes. The phenotype at Lys is Valyrian, and thus type A too.

We see how the Hightower phenotype has been wiped out of the Targaryen family tree. Instead the Valyrian genotype has been introduced into the Hightower genotype.

Also take note of the possibility that Drazenko Rogare of Lys (Larra's uncle) was married to the Princess of Dorne, Aliandra Martell. If this marriage had issue then the Martells could have been carriers of the V genotype.

8TH GENERATION

  • Aegon IV + Naerys Targaryen (both V phenotypes)
    • Daeron II, Daenerys Targaryen (both V phenotypes).
  • Daena the Defiant + Aegon IV (both V phenotypes)
    • Daemon Blackfyre (V phenotype)
  • Elaena Targaryen (V phenotype) + Alyn Velaryon (V carrier or phenotype)
    • twins Jon and Jeyne Water (V carriers or phenotypes)
  • Elaena Targaryen (V phenotype) + Ossifer Plumm (none) but actually Aegon IV (V phenotype)
    • Viserys Plumm (V phenotype)
  • Elaena Targaryen (V phenotype) + Ronnel Penrose
    • Robin, Laena, Jocelyn, Joy Penrose (all V carriers)
  • Aegon IV (V phenotype) + Falena Stokeworth:
    • no acknowledged issue, possibly Jeyne Lothston (V carrier)
  • Aegon IV (V phenotype) + Megette:
    • Alysanne, Lilly, Willow and Rosey Rivers (V carriers). All became septas.
  • Aegon IV (V phenotype) + Bellegere Otherys:
    • likely Bellenora, Narha and Balerion (likely V carriers)
  • Aegon IV (V phenotype) + Barba Bracken (B carrier):
    • Aegor Bittersteel Rivers (ocular VB phenotype)
  • Aegon IV (V phenotype) + Missy Blackwood (B+ carrier):
    • Mya, Gwenys (V carriers or VB phenotypes) and Brynden Bloodraven Rivers (VB amenalism phenotype).
  • Aegon IV + Serenei of Lys (both V phenotypes):
    • Shiera Seastar (V phenotype)

In my historical essay on House Blackfyre I propose that the loyalty of Aegor Rivers and the long wait of Daemon Blackfyre before rebelling is best explained by both acquiring a witness account that Daeron II was indeed fathered by Aemon the Dragonknight instead of Aegon IV. But as Aemon was V phenotype just as well this makes little difference to Daeron II being a confirmed V phenotype.

I introduced the Bracken and Blackwoods above as carriers of a B genotype. Hoster Blackwood confirms to Jaime that there have been plenty of peace pacts between Brackens and Blackwoods, most often sealed through marriage.

Quote

"We've had a hundred peaces with the Brackens, many sealed with marriages. There's Blackwood blood in every Bracken, and Bracken blood in every Blackwood." (aDwD, Jaime I)

We don't know the features of Mya and Gwenys Rivers, but we do know that Brynden Rivers is an amenalistic albino (complete), while Aegor Rivers had purple eyes. Missy's portrait depicts her with mahogany or auburn heir and green eyes. Green and red eyes are associated to greendreamers and/or greenseers, so there is a reference of a reoccurrence of albino red eyes since the Dawn and time of First Men heroes, especially since Blackwoods actually were Northerners who settled in the Riverlands after being exiled. With the Brackens having intermarried with the Blackwoods it's possible they're carriers of a more benign B subtype occular gene. Together with Aegon's V phenotype, this does not just result into Aegor Rivers being a carrier, but having the purple eye phenotype. He would however still be a V carrier for the skin paleness and silver hair.

It's possible that Brynden Rivers is an albino because of a mutation at his conception, but with Aegon IV as a V phenotype and the historical references that green and red eyes are an occurrence with the First Men, the chances are more likely that Brynden Rivers suffers from amenalism because of an albinistic gene passed on by his Blackwood mother combined with Aegon's V genes. Alternatively the BV combo is normally a benign partial albinism, but the B gene is naturally more prone to mutate with an amenalistic albino as result. 

9TH GENERATION

  • Daeron II the Good (V phenotype) + Mariah Martell (possible V carrier through Drazenko Rogare)
    • Baelor Breakspear (V carrier, not phenotype, dark hair and eyes), Aerys I (V phenotype), Rhaegel (V carrier or phenotype), Maekar I (V phenotype)
  • Daenerys Tararyen (V phenotype) + Maron Martell (possible V carrier through Drazenko Rogare)
    • children (V carriers, some possibly phenotype)
  • Daemon Blackfyre (V phenotype) + Rohanne of Tyrosh (V carrier)
    • twins Aegon and Aenys (V carrier or phenotype), Cerra (V carrier or phenotype), Daemon II (V phenotype), Haegon, Aenys, two more sons and at least one more daughter (V carriers or phenotypes)
  • Jon Waters (V carrier or phenotype) + unknown wife
    • House Longwater (possible V carrier)
  • Viserys Plumm (V phenotype) + unknown wife
    • House Plumm (V carrier)
  • House Penrose (possible V carriers)
  • Brynden Rivers (BV albino phenotype) + Shiera Seastar (V phenotype)
    • speculative child (BV phenotype, possible albino)

While this is not confimed yet via a Martell family tree, I think it very likely that George had Drazenko Rogare marry Aliandra Martell to make Martells possible V carriers, before Daeron II and Daenerys were were to the Martells. If George did think of a recessive phenotype for the Targaryens then this would be the sole way to allow for some of Daeron II's children to display the V phenotype.

Daemon Blackfyre's son Daemon II is described as the V phenotype. We do not have confirmed descriptions of his other children being V phenotypes. Under the premisse for this exercise that the V gene is recessive Rohanne of Tyrosh therefore must at least be a V carrier. Tyrosh was not a known favourite Valyrian dragonlord haunt, but the world book claims that some dragonlords survived the Doom in Tyrosh. The dragons and the riders were killed, but not necessarily all of the blood. While there is no reason to believe that Tyrosh has as much Valyrian blood let alone phenotypes as much as Lys has, some of it would have been at least carried by some of the noble families. As Daeron II married his grandson Valarr to another lady of Tyrosh this suggests that some were believed to have Valyrian blood or showed Valyrian features.

I included the hypothetical child of Shiera and Bloodraven. Mel is theorized to be such a child. She has red eyes and this makes her an anemalistic albino.

10TH GENERATION

  • Baelor Breakspear (V carrier, not phenotype) + Jena Dondarrion
    • Valarr (brown hair with piebald lock of silver-gold hair, blue eyes, V carrier), Matarys (possible V carrier)
  • Aerys I (V phenotype) + Aelinor Penrose (possible V carrier): no issue
  • Rhaegel (V carrier or phenotype) + Alys Arryn
    • twins Aelora and Aelor, and Daenora Targaryen (possible V carriers, should not be phenotypes)
  • Maekar I (V phenotype) + Dyanna Dayne (D carrier)
    • Daeron the Drunken (sandy brown hair, blonde beard, sickly pale skin -> V carrier, not VD phenotype), Aerion Brightflame (VD phenotype), maester Aemon (V carrier or VD phenotype), Daella (V carrier or VD phenotype), Aegon V (VD phenotype), Rhae Targaryen (V carrier or VD phenotype)
  • House Martell (V carriers)
  • Cerra Blackfyre (V carrier or phenotype) + Aegor Bittersteel River (V carrier and VB ocular phenotype)
    • Hypothetical children (very likely V carrier, possible B carrier, possible V phenotype or VB ocular phenotype)
  • Heagon Blackfyre (V carrier or phenotype) + unknown woman
    • Daemon III Blackfyre (possible V carrier or phenotype depending on the mother)

Some readers see Valarr's silver-gold hairlock as a sign that his Valyrian genes are coming through. However, a single lock is a typical piebald sign. Piebalding is a patchy form of leukism. Where albinism is reduced melanin production, leukism means that the patch or complete skin lacks the cells to make pigment. Leukism typically has no effect on the eyes. House Dondarrion seems to have a phenotype of red hair, as both Beric and Manfred Dondarrion have red hair. Red hair is typically associated with blue or green eyes. There is no sign that they are carriers of a FM albinism gene. The first Dondarrion was a messenger of the Durrandon Storm King, gifted with a castle for good work.

Blue eyes come about by the lack of pigment in the stroma of the iris. This is for EVERY blue-eyed person. There's no such thing as blue pigment in the eye. Blue eyes are an optical illusion of light scattered into different wavelengths, with every light of wavelenght longer than blue being absorbed by the black pigmented epitheleum behind the stroma (like a black screen) and the blue being refracted back out of the eye. This is called the Tyndall effect and is similar to us seeing the sky as blue by Raleigh effect.

The V gene implies lack of pigment in the stroma. Baelor Breakspear has dark eyes, but is a carrier of the V gene. Since Valarr has blue eyes this means Baelor passed the V gene onto Valarr. Combined with red hair and blue eyed genes of Jena, Valarr therefore would have genes from both parents that instruct the cells in the stroma of the iris not to produce amber or brown melanin. This would make his eyes look blue. 

Aelinor Penrose could have been a V carrier but since she had no children with Aerys I  we'll never know.

House Dayne is a FM House, known to occasionally have members with purple eyes and/or silver hair. It might be H phenotype related, but also could be a subtype that could be temperature sensitive allowing for brown hair as it does with Ashara Dayne (brown hair and purple eyes), or an independent mutation. Daeron the Drunken does not seem to have the purple eyes, meanwhile several of his brothers are display the hypomelanistic albinism and thus Dyanna Dayne is a D carrier.

George so far avoided describing what Rhaegel's children Aelora, Aelor and Daenora look like. Unless the Arryn family tree ends up showing an Arryn marrying someone with V, H or D genotype Alys Arryn would not be a carrier of any Valyrian like features. While Rodrik Arryn married Daella Targaryen, they had only one child and Daella died in childbirth. Their daughter Aemma Arryn married Viserys I and had Rhaenyra as only child growing up into adulthood. If the V genotype is indeed recessive, then we can predict correctly that all of Rhaegel's children will not display the V phenotype, if and when George describes their features.

11TH GENERATION

  • Valarr Targaryen (V carrier) + Kiera of Tyrosh (possible V carrier or phenotype):
    • 2 stillborn children
  • Daeron the Drunken (V carrier, not phenotype) + Kiera of Tyrosh (possible V carrier or phenotype):
    • Vaella the Simple (possible V carrier or phenotype)
  • Aerion Brightflame (V phenotype) + Daenora Targaryen (possible V carrier, not phenotype)
    • Maegor Targaryen (V carrier, possible V phenotype)
  • Daella Targaryen (V carrier or VD phenotype) + unknown husband
    • children (V or D carriers, possible V or D phenotypes)
  • Aegon V (VD phenotype) + Betha Blackwood (B carrier)
    • Duncan Prince of Dragonflies (V or D carrier, not phenotype, dark hair, unkown color of eyes), Jaehaerys II (VB or DB phenotype); Shaera (V or D carrier or VB or DB phenotype), Daeron (VB or DB phenotype), Rhaelle (V or D carrier or VB or DB phenotype)
  • Rhae Targaryen (V carrier or VD phenotype) + unknown husband
    • children (V or D carriers, pissble V or D phenotypes)

Where the B genotype with the Brackens only caused an ocular VB phenotype in Aegor Rivers (dark hair, purple eyes) and with Missy Blackwood the amenalistic albino Brynden Rivers (VB albino phenotype), we get the proposed hypomelanistic albinism in Jaehaerys II and Daeron with the combo of VB phenotype. This does suggest that Brynden Rivers was a spontaneous subtype mutation.

12TH GENERATION

  • Duncan Prince of Dragonflies (V or D carrier, not phenotype) + Jenny of Oldstones (?): unknown whether they had issue
  • Jaehaerys II (VB or DB phenotype) + Shaera (V or D carrier or VB or DB phenotype) Targaryen:
    • Aerys II the Mad King, Rhaella : phenotypes, either V, D or B or VB, VD, DB
  • Rhaelle Targaryen (V or D carrier or VB or DB phenotype) + Ormund Baratheon (possible V carrier):
    • Steffon Baratheon (possible V, D or B carrier, not phenotype)

The VB, VD and V phenotype looks the same as result, though it may come about by partly a Blackwood genotype. I'm not sure a full B phenotype looks like a Targaryen, because then we'd have Blackwoods or Brackens looking like Targs once in a while after an intermarriage. So for the 13 th generation I will be taking out the possibiliy of Aerys II and Rhaella being full B phenotypes. I'm not sure that DB combo gives the same appearance as a Targ, but I cannot rule it out. Although we could likely conclude that a DB would not result into a dragonrider.

Rhaella can be confirmed to be looking like a Targ according the Disasters of Summerhall illustration where Rhaella is depicted giving birth to Rhaegar.

After so many generations chances are small that Ormund Baratheon was still a V genotype carrier like the earliest Baratheons. Personally I would say he was not a carrier anymore. But it cannot be ruled out, especially since they had only one child Steffon. We have no confirmed description yet of Rhaelle, and thus whether she appeared to have V features (which would have come from the VB or VD combo). She would at least be a V genotype carrier though.

13TH GENERATION

  • Aerys II + Rhaella (both phenotypes, either V, D, VB, VD or BD)
    • Rhaegar, Viserys (all phenotypes either V, D, VB, VD or BD)
    • Daenerys (phenotype either V, VB or VD)
  • Steffon Barathon (possible V, D or B carrier) + Cassana Estermont
    • Robert, Stannis, Renly Baratheon (possible V, D or B carriers)

I think we can rule out Dany not having a V-gene, because that would likely result in her being unable to hatch or ride dragons. The dragonlords of Old Valyria were inestuous to keep the dragonriding within the family and to prevent making common dragonseeds. This means that at least one of her parents still must be a V, VB or VD phenotype in order to pass on the V gene. And so must either Jaehaerys II or Shaera.

14TH GENERATION

  • Rhaegar Targaryen (V, D, VB, VD or BD phenotype) + Elia Martell (V carrier)
    • Rhaenys (V, B, or D carrier), Aegon (V, VD, VB phenotype)
  • Rhaegar Targaryen (V, D, VB, VD or BD phenotype) + Lyanna Stark (possible B carrier)
    • Jon Snow (V, D or B carrier, not VB or VD phenotype, not sure what full B or BD phenotype results into)
  • Robert Baratheon (possible V, D or B carrier) + Cersei Lannister: no issue
  • Robert Baratheon (possible V, D or B carrier) + Delena Florent
    • Edric Storm (possible V, D or B carrier)
  • Robert Baratheon (possible V, D or B carrier) + various women:
    • Mya Stone, Gendry, Bella (possible V, D or B carriers)
  • Stannis Baratheon (possible V, D or B carrier) + Selyse Florent
    • Shyreen Baratheon (possible V, D or B carrier)

As far as I can see nothing of the whole Targaryen lineage conflicts with the proposal of the V features being a recessive genotype, if Daynes, Hightowers and Blackwoods are carriers of a similar genotype that came about through independent mutation.

Edited by sweetsunray
making corrections to 12th-14th generation

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@sweetsunray this is amazing work. Here I was twirling my swizzle stick through a pomegranate mojito and thinking I was sooo clever to find this code, but then here comes Sweetsunray to show me that there is, indeed, always a bear. 

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Ok, you know I've been busy on an essay about Varys's origin and a section of it is about albinism and leukism.

I regard the Valyrian/Targ features as a fantasy form of hypomelanistic albinism: reduced melanin production, but not absolute, so degrees of tanning is possible, including hair being sometimes more blond or even dark blond.

Thi
s would also give a measurable answer to why some Targs have a 'streak" of black hair (for example)

and the quoter just started eating everything I write and will not let me edit. Ugh! So I will have to try this full reply later.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That was pretty phenomenal @sweetsunray I have recently. On the thread pertaining to Fire and Blood discussed the child of Alys Rivers and Aemond Targaryen.  

With my own proposal that Alys is a Blackwood bastard meaning that their child would have the same genetic mix as Bloodraven. And the possibility that The Ghost of High Heart might be their descendant.

 The Ghost is of course both a greendreamer/seer and an albino. And she is a Woods Witch of the Riverlands. Placing her geographically in the correct place and of course, Alys too was a magic user.   

With this in mind, if Jenny of Oldstones was her child, then her relationship with Duncan the small becomes even more interesting again. 

As does the proposal that Mellisandre is the child of Bloodraven and Shiera. Though I'm not 100% sold on that one myself. I am not closed to the idea either and I know a lot of people really like it. 

I do think there is something in the mix of firstman and targaryen blood and your extensive work here is in line with things which I've been considering for a while. Such as the island dwellers seeming to have Valyrian type features. The inhabitants of dragonstone, Driftmark, and Claw Island obviously are known Valyrians, but Tarth, the island the Dayne's live on and Battle Isle where the Hightower is also all seem to be held by Houses which may have the Valyrian type blood. Or some such variant. It makes me want to meet an Estermont and see what their appearance is. Because we've got a lot of island dwelling people who may have significant blood in the south of Westeros. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Ok, you know I've been busy on an essay about Varys's origin and a section of it is about albinism and leukism.

I regard the Valyrian/Targ features as a fantasy form of hypomelanistic albinism: reduced melanin production, but not absolute, so degrees of tanning is possible, including hair being sometimes more blond or even dark blond.

First, thank you for taking the time to work this out. This research is a work of art in itself. 

Quote

Now some of the arguments against Valyrian features being related to albinism is that nobody seems to have issues with their sight. Brynden Rivers is an absolute (amenalistic) albino, but clearly a fantasy form of albinism, for he should only have blurry vision at best because of his red eyes. Red eyes indicates there is no melanin whatsoever in the epitheleum of iris, which normally acts as a barrier to prevent light from reaching the retina other than through the pupil. If you make the aperture of a camera obscura too big, then you get a blurry image. Bloodraven should not be able to hit a target when shooting arrows. And yet he does. So, George completely ignores acuity issues and certainly deafness that is tied to real world albinism, even in its traditional severest form. If Bloodraven doesn't have eyesight issues, then the real world acuity issues related to albinism can be completely ignored, as much as George ignores it. 

I agree with this. George is taking real world knowledge and twisting it a little to fit his narrative. 

I will add that ASOIAF is not the only place in his writing that he uses both albino characters, but also the luecistic characters. I am not sure if this is based on something he draws from his own personal life, or if he is going with the traditional ethereal elf ideal, but it he uses this type over and over. 

Quote

Does this work out for the Targaryen lineage and your OP?

The Targ lineage starts with Aerion Targaryen and Valaena Velaryon. Both houses are Valyrian houses, but the Velaryons originally were not a dragonlord family and settled on Dragonstone before the Targaryens. The Targaryens have the Valyrian phenotype, the Velaryons less strongly, but certainly after the Doom, the Targaryens and Velaryons intermarried often when the Targs couldn't do sibling marriages. So, the Velaryons can be assumed to be carriers of the genotype, sometimes actually express the phenotype.

It is good you mentioned the Velaryons as they are described as having the typical Valyrian looks; pale skin, pale hair, purple eyes. So in this case it makes it should have been Visenya who go the near indistinguishable Velaryon looks, and her personality is something else as well.

If I remember correctly, most/all of the current Targaryens come from Rhaenys' line, which means they carry the stronger Targ looks just by that rule (plus the incest- another genetic rule that George is ignoring for his fantasy world). 

 

Quote

After so many generations chances are small that Ormund Baratheon was still a V genotype carrier like the earliest Baratheons. Personally I would say he was not a carrier anymore. But it cannot be ruled out, especially since they had only one child Steffon. We have no confirmed description yet of Rhaelle, and thus whether she appeared to have V features (which would have come from th VB combo). She would at least be a V genotype carrier though.

13TH GENERATION

  • Aerys II + Rhaella (both VB or V phenotype)
    • Rhaegar, Viserys, Daenerys (all V or VB phenotypes)
  • Steffon Barathon (possible V or B carrier) + Cassana Estermont
    • Robert, Stannis, Renly Baratheon (possible V or B carriers)

14TH GENERATION

  • Rhaegar Targaryen (V or VB phenotype) + Elia Martell (V carrier)
    • Rhaenys (V or B carrier), Aegon (V or VB phenotype)
  • Rhaegar Targaryen (V or VB phenotype) + Lyanna Stark
    • Jon Snow (V or B carrier)
  • Robert Baratheon (possible V or B carrier) + Cersei Lannister: no issue
  • Robert Baratheon (possible V or B carrier) + Delena Florent
    • Edric Storm (possible V or B carrier)
  • Robert Baratheon (possible V or B carrier) + various women:
    • Mya Stone, Gendry, Bella (possible V or B carriers)
  • Stannis Baratheon (possible V or B carrier) + Selyse Florent
    • Shyreen Baratheon (possible V or B carrier)

As far as I can see nothing of the whole Targaryen lineage conflicts with the proposal of the V features being a recessive genotype, if Daynes, Hightowers and Blackwoods are carriers of a similar genotype that came about through independent mutation.

This is where I think it matters most in the current story. The ability to hide an heir in plain sight, and also to "reveal" an impersonator as the true thing. It creates conflict in-world that keeps we readers on the edge of our seat (and debating in the forum ;))

It was actually rather clever of George to come up with this simple code to create tension. I love it. 

Really good work, Sweetsunray. I am once again beyond impressed at your level of detail. You've made it a map-able theory. 

Edited by The Fattest Leech

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

8 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

@sweetsunray this is amazing work. Here I was twirling my swizzle stick through a pomegranate mojito and thinking I was sooo clever to find this code, but then here comes Sweetsunray to show me that there is, indeed, always a bear. 

Thank you. You were very clever to find this. It is a phenomenal list of observations. I used it as a jumping board to check whether a benign form of partial and recessive albinism would be sufficient to explain both the first child taking after their non-Targ mother, as well as subsequent children looking more like Valyrians.

I know some readers cringe at just the idea of genetics. Obviously the above is very rudimentary mendelian genetics that oversimplifies real world genetics. But we're not talking real world genetics, but the rudimentary principles a fantasy author could use to create this family tree.

Similarly we shouldn't be thinking of this as problematic a form of albinism as it is in the real world: no eyesight issue, no hearing issues. There are physical reasons, mechanics and optical laws on how light works and how basically translucent eyes look grey or blue or purple to us. True purple-eyed and red-eyed people not having acuity issues is fantasy, whether we call it albinism or not.

So, it's not RW genetics nor RW albinism... it's a simplified fantasy version inspired by a rudimentary version of it. And there's no way you can tell me that George doesn't apply some rudimentary ideas of genetics in the books. Otherwise he wouldn't have children look like at least one parent, use the plot of Cersei's children not being Robert's.

Basically George started out with Dany and Viserys and their appearances and needed to create a family tree covering 300 years. In order for their looks to be "special" or "rare" he was bound to go with recessiveness. At some level George knows he cannot keep the Targ lineage 100% incestuous. He has to insert the occasional non-Targ mother in there. But he has to do it in a way that it doesn't mess up Dany and Viserys from losing their looks: the non-Targ mothers must be carriers of some gene that helps achieve the same looks and he uses the full range - a family already intermarried with Targs (Velaryons), a bastard cadet branch (Baratheons), marry out and marry back in (Daella Targaryen and Aemma Arryn), two families that somehow already have similar features (Hightowers and Daynes), extend that to a family that totally does not look like them but gene carrier that does the same thing anyway (basically a form of albinism, the Blackwoods, or sneakily introducing the gene via the backdoor with the Martells with Larra Rogare's uncle), mothers who originate from the same people of origin (Lyseni and two Tyroshi women). And then throw in a few non-Targ wives who aren't special gene carriers (Alys Arryn and Jena Dondarrion) but kill their children off, preferably without going into their looks.

To make it semi-realistic he has to throw in children who do take after their non-Targ mother. Now there is no RW statistical reason for the first child to take after the non-Targ mother, but there definitely are plot reasons for it, especially if that first child is a male heir. Male heirs not looking like Targs are cause for political problems. Family tension is created with the first born not looking like a Targ, even if it's a daughter (as it does with the Mad King over his granddaughter Rhaenys).

And I think you correctly observed a pattern with George, and George seems to have admitted this to you last year at Balticon. Whether it was done on purpose for some special reason or a pattern that came about by a) wanting to make the Targ lineage look more realistic as well as b ) cause political and family contention and drama for the background story is likely not something we will learn when all is written and published. There certainly is room for George to make some children who were born later to look like their non-Targ mothers as well: Rhaegel, the second Daella (Maekar's daughter), and Rhae, and Rhaelle who married Ormund Baratheon. He has not given us a description of them yet.

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

That was pretty phenomenal @sweetsunray 

Thank you :)

 

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

On the thread pertaining to Fire and Blood discussed the child of Alys Rivers and Aemond Targaryen.  

With my own proposal that Alys is a Blackwood bastard meaning that their child would have the same genetic mix as Bloodraven. And the possibility that The Ghost of High Heart might be their descendant.

I would agree with your impression. I too have the distinct impression that Alys Rivers is a bastard daughter of a Blackwood, just by the first name and mention of black hair.

The fact that she's called Rivers means that she's acknowledged, and that normally happens to bastards born to a noblewoman rather than a commoner (except in the case of Mya Stone).

There's no reason to believe that bastards are always raised in the same house of their noble mother or father. In fact, Catelyn says that usually they are fostered out to someplace else: see the bastard of Hornwood who's fostered with the Glovers. George has Catelyn state that is the rule, though effectively we now know more exceptions to the rule: Walder Rivers at the Twins, Joy at CR, Edric Storm at Storm's End, Aegor and Brynden Rivers with their Bracken and Blackwood mothers respectively, the bastard daughter at the Shield Islands. Either Catelyn is wrong when she thinks most bastards are fostered away from their mother's and father's home, or we the readers are more prone to learn about the exceptions: the trueborn relatives are far more bound to mention them or simple are more prone to be featured exactly because they live with them. The acknowedged bastards that are fostered out are more easily forgotten and only come up in discussions such as a succession crisis of Hornwood. Anyway, that's a long winded argument to say that there's nothing strange about a Blackwood bastard being at Harrenhal. It may have been her foster home. That would be the rule as Catelyn says.  

Narratively it would make the most sense to introduce another character in the back history that tells us something about the B genes, the H genes or the V genes, especially when they form a combo. But let me remind you that all of Aegon V's children have the same combo or similar combo as Missy's 3 children might have (not just Bloodraven).

The B-gene seems to have various subtypes: with Barba Bracken it only has an occular impact, but with Missy Blackwood it has an OCA (eyes + skin + hair) effect. And with Betha Blackwood there is no extreme albino impact. The D-gene seems to improve tanning abilities for Aegon V can tan deeply, and it allows for brown hair in Ashara, and yet Daynes can also have silver hair so it's not exclusively occular either.

These is what we have:

  • Aegon IV (V phenotype) + Barba Bracken (B occular carrier)
    • Aegor Bittersteel Rivers: occular VB phenotype, V carrier for skin and hair -> he has dark hair with purple eyes and does not even appear pale
  • Aegon IV (V phenotype) + Missy Blackwood (B carrier):
    • Mya, Gwenys: we do not know their appearance.
      • If Missy did not pass on the B-gene(s) then they are V carriers. They would have similar features as Missy
      •  If she did pass them on they are VB phenotypes. Lack of mention of appearance suggest they did not appear to have amenalistic albinism. They would probably look like Daeron or Shaera.
    • Brynden Bloodraven Rivers: VB amenalism OCA phenotype, red eyes, sensitive to sunlight, wine-mark
  • Aegon V (VD phenotype) + Betha Blackwood (B carrier)
    • Duncan Prince of Dragonflies: V or D carrier, not phenotype, Betha did not pass on the special B-gene(s): dark hair, unkown color of eyes
    • Jaehaerys II: looks like a Targaryen, either VB or DB phenotype
    • Shaera: looks not confirmed, either V or D carrier or VB or DB phenotype
    • Daeron: looks like a Targaryen, either VB or DB phenotype
    • Rhaelle: looks not confirmed, either V or D carrier or VB or DB phenotype

I'm not sure whether a DB phenotype would result into someone looking like a Targ. I suspect that George would make DB phenotypes look like Aegor Rivers for some reason. Just a hunch.

As I mentioned previously, I suspect the B-gene is prone to added spontaneous mutation, but Betha Blackwood proves that not every VB combo would result into someone looking like Bloodraven.

With the assumption that Alys Rivers is a Blackwood we get this:

  • Aemon Targaryen (VH phenotype) + Alys Rivers (black of hair, could see visions in flames, assumed Blackwood and B carrier or phenotype)
    • bastard child
      • if HB or VB phenotype: then the child would likely look like Daeron or Jaehaerys, with the major difference that they wouldn't be able to be dragonriders
      • if HB or VB phenotype with extra spontanous mutation: then the child would have the appearance similar to Bloodraven
      • if the B gene is occular only: then the child would look like Aegor Rivers
      • if Alys does not pass the B-gene on, then the child is either a V or H carrier and would have black hair or possibly mahogany red, with either green or blue eyes
3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

The Ghost is of course both a greendreamer/seer and an albino. And she is a Woods Witch of the Riverlands. Placing her geographically in the correct place and of course, Alys too was a magic user.   

With this in mind, if Jenny of Oldstones was her child, then her relationship with Duncan the small becomes even more interesting again. 

The GoHH seems crannogmen related. But Jenny of Oldstones might be a good candidate imo. Especially with Duncan being the Prince of "Dragon Flies" ;)

3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Such as the island dwellers seeming to have Valyrian type features. The inhabitants of dragonstone, Driftmark, and Claw Island obviously are known Valyrians, but Tarth, the island the Dayne's live on and Battle Isle where the Hightower is also all seem to be held by Houses which may have the Valyrian type blood. Or some such variant. It makes me want to meet an Estermont and see what their appearance is. Because we've got a lot of island dwelling people who may have significant blood in the south of Westeros. 

You raise an interesting geographical point. Lys is an island too. We know that islands or any type of isolated people are prone to genetic drift. Over time the population will look more and more alike, even if the phenotype is recessive. In isolated people reoccuring intermarriages will also increase the chance of albinism surfacing. It's not that the close kin marriages cause albinism. It's just not the rarest of mutations, but often recessive, some even only tied to the X chromosome (and thus only phenotype in males, such as occular albinism), and chances of an individual being an albinistic phenotype rise when a small isolated population is forced to marry kin often. A real world example are/were the Lacondon Mayans in Chiapas, Mexico: small population, living still mostly isolated from civilisation and keeping to ancestral traditions in the 20 century, and a high incidence of albinism. Since 2000 the Lacondons have mostly abandoned their ancestral culture and have become more and more open, so I expect the incidence to have dropped or drop in the following decades. 

Anyway, islands cause geographical isolation, and a form of albinism could be a regular occuring phenotype then. If it also a phenotype that is admired and desired, or possessed by lords who require First Rights on a wedding then you have an environment where the albinism is visibly preserved. 

It is then possible that B, H and D are basically variations of the same original albinistic mutation brought along by the FM, except the Blackwoods remained mainlanders and were never completely geographically isolated. So, most are carriers, but not phenotypes.

What I find interesting is the Grasslands section in the world book. It seems the corridor or source region of several people who have migrated. There are maesters claiming that Valyrians, Andals, as well as the First Men originated from there. (And I'm currently using plenty of material of that region, because there are definite connections between Varys and Qaath and Qarth... who imo aren't albnistic but leukists comparable to Dominant White with horses. I had to go into recessive albinism in the essay because I wanted to clarify the distinction between both). The original albinistic mutation probably originates from the grasslands gene pool. The FM carried it with them into Westeros, and with your observation we can see how with the houses who lived on islands it became a phenotype. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I am not sure if this is based on something he draws from his own personal life, or if he is going with the traditional ethereal elf ideal, but it he uses this type over and over. 

I think it is probably based on the elf ideal, but as he loves to write fantasy grounded in more realistic world building, he's drawing it from real world natural phenomena and does it in a world building way that is also far more realistic: @The Weirwoods Eyes added observation of it being most prominent in island populations is spot on in that regard. Ultimately George doesn't like to be pinned down to a genre, but writes sci-fantasy that leans to sci with a pinch of fantasy, and aSoIaF is sci-fantasy that leans to fantasy with a pinch of sci.

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

So in this case it makes it should have been Visenya who go the near indistinguishable Velaryon looks, and her personality is something else as well.

Might want to check out Corlys's character, Oakenfist and Aurane Waters. Alyssa Velaryon who fled Maegor too. They're the Velaryons we know the most about.

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

If I remember correctly, most/all of the current Targaryens come from Rhaenys' line, which means they carry the stronger Targ looks just by that rule (plus the incest- another genetic rule that George is ignoring for his fantasy world). 

Visenya only had Maegor as son, and he died without issue. Visenya's line died out with her son. And even if Jaehaerys had not won, Aera and Rhalla Targaryen were his heirs through his wife Rhaena Targaryren. But they were the children of her sibling marriage with Aegon, and both were of Rhaenys's line.

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This is where I think it matters most in the current story. The ability to hide an heir in plain sight, and also to "reveal" an impersonator as the true thing. It creates conflict in-world that keeps we readers on the edge of our seat (and debating in the forum ;))

Yes, it is. He uses it again, with the Blackfyre rebellions. Daeron II is probably Aemon's son and not Aegon IV's, making Daeron II's basically a bastard pretender line like Cersei's children, and the heir Baelor Breakspear who doesn't look like a Targ. And yet Daeron II was likely the best king they ever had, and Baelor would likely have made at least as good as one. It's not "looks" that make a king or a queen for that matter. Not that Daemon Blackfyre was not without honor imo. I remind myself he acted like Stannis. Except in Daemon's case Daeron wasn't a Joffrey.

Or how about Rhaenyra's sons? I'd have taken those Strong boys over Alicent's boys any time. Every one of Rhaenyra's 5 sons (Strong's or Daemon's) were 10 x the men that Alicent's vicious sons. But the next generation you end up with Daeron I hellbent on conquering Dorne for glory and getting himself killed, a well meaning Baelor who's a religious fanatic and Aegon IV the Unworthy.

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

It was actually rather clever of George to come up with this simple code to create tension. I love it. 

:agree:

 

2 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

First, thank you for taking the time to work this out. This research is a work of art in itself. 

You know me. I want to cover the whole ground, including tangents in my essays, but I simply could not go into this in detail in the Varys essay, and I was not going to make it into an actual stand-alone essay. I was referencing this thread and OP in a source note, combined it with the recessive idea, and played around with it in my head, opened up my world book on the lineage page and started to scribble stuff in pencil, realizing I might as well make a thorough map out of it in a post in this thread :D

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is all great stuff @Sweetsunray. 

What do you think to the proposal that Varys and Serra were descendants of Aerion Brightflame and a Lyseni woman who he bedded during his exile? And that Serra gave birth to fAegon by Illyrio. 

Does he fit with what you have worked out? As we know Serra had pale golden hair streaked with silver and big blue eyes. 

And Illyrio has blonde hair but I don't recall his eye colour having been mentioned.  

Would these two if she is Aerion's descendant and he a Blackfyre descendant; carry the correct gene's to give fAegon his typical Targ looks? 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

This is all great stuff @Sweetsunray. 

What do you think to the proposal that Varys and Serra were descendants of Aerion Brightflame and a Lyseni woman who he bedded during his exile? And that Serra gave birth to fAegon by Illyrio. 

Does he fit with what you have worked out? As we know Serra had pale golden hair streaked with silver and big blue eyes. 

And Illyrio has blonde hair but I don't recall his eye colour having been mentioned.  

Would these two if she is Aerion's descendant and he a Blackfyre descendant; carry the correct gene's to give fAegon his typical Targ looks?

I think Serra is a descendant of Saera Targaryen. Regardless, as Lyseni, she's definitely a V phenotyp, whether she has Targ blood or does not.

I'm not conviced Varys and Serra are siblings. Varys is a mix of a bunch of people. If he has Targ blood, it's Brightflame's imo.

Illyrio may be a V carrier from the time the dragonlords of Old Valyria came to Pentos, not Targ related at all, but of common birth.

And I think fAegon is the son of Serra and Illyrio.

So, no Blackfyres imo. I think the Blackfyre is Daario Naharis.

Edited by sweetsunray

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@The Weirwoods Eyes I know you mentioned recently that you had started readings George's older works. If you like The character of Alys Rivers, then you might really enjoy the story In the Lost Lands. 

Sorry to the OP for derailing the thread :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, @Sweetsunray. I'm 100% sold on the idea that they are Brightflame's Varys IMO needs a reason to want this boy on the throne and he needs motivation for his "the poor bastards" stance. And I think the GC need a Blackfyre in order to be breaking a contract, some wrote in blood ect. But I shall not pursue this here as I would not wish to derail the thread. 

I was just interested in how his looks would play out if they are the people I think they are. 

 

@The Fattest Leach

I literally started that one last night!  DH and I had watched The Wolf of Wallstreet before bed though so was a late night. That is a LONG film! But good I enjoyed it. So when we went to bed I only managed to read one short story. the Ice dragon. It was good I can see why some people think it is set in Westeros. But it evidently is not. But I enjoyed the story and the themes.  So I read like the first two paragraphs of In The Lost Lands. Before feeling too tired to carry on.  But I must say my heart raced a bit when I read the characters name was Alys and it seems, that she is a magic user. I'm looking forward to reading the story, not tonight as I'm going to the pub. But I might squeeze it in on a hungover saturday.  Or maybe later today, cos the internet is playing up. But that said I have a Space Marine Razorback which I'm painting too. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Ah, @Sweetsunray. I'm 100% sold on the idea that they are Brightflame's Varys IMO needs a reason to want this boy on the throne and he needs motivation for his "the poor bastards" stance. And I think the GC need a Blackfyre in order to be breaking a contract, some wrote in blood ect. But I shall not pursue this here as I would not wish to derail the thread. 

I was just interested in how his looks would play out if they are the people I think they are. 

Iam one who thinks there must be a reason for George to create and mention all of these branches of Targaryens. It can't be for nothing. I think @sweetsunray and a few few others have done excellent jobs at making these connections to the main plots of the series. 

3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

@The Fattest Leach

I literally started that one last night!  DH and I had watched The Wolf of Wallstreet before bed though so was a late night. That is a LONG film! But good I enjoyed it. So when we went to bed I only managed to read one short story. the Ice dragon. It was good I can see why some people think it is set in Westeros.

I know! It is very tempting to say it does take place in Westeros, but the author said no. I will say that even though The Ice Dragon is not set in Westeros, George does reuse his style and scenes from that book in to ASOIAF. The man likes his codes. I started a reread a few months ago and (just) started ACOK recently. The chapter with Arya gong north with Yoren and the other NW recruits while the smallfolk move in masses south is very indicative of that scene in The Ice Dragon. 

3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

But it evidently is not. But I enjoyed the story and the themes.  So I read like the first two paragraphs of In The Lost Lands. Before feeling too tired to carry on.  But I must say my heart raced a bit when I read the characters name was Alys and it seems, that she is a magic user. I'm looking forward to reading the story, not tonight as I'm going to the pub.

Let me know how you like it. 

3 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

 

But I might squeeze it in on a hungover saturday.  Or maybe later today, cos the internet is playing up. But that said I have a Space Marine Razorback which I'm painting too. 

:blink: You have your very own dragon??? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×