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The Expanse #2: Caliban's Thread - [spoilers for book only up to latest tv show episode]


SpaceChampion

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I'm hoping Netflix UK rolls the second season out in time with the SyFy airing. Quite a few of my friends have been watching it since it landed on netflix. It's funny how seeing "Netflix original" with a full season at hand gets more attention than free episodes being posted on youtube. But I guess if I was made to blindly choose between a "syfy" show and a "netflix" show I'd go for the latter too.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Read the books, watched a few episodes now.

Where is the mandatory bitch-and-moan thread? 

Avasarala is a big disappointment, of course.

Why don’t they get space ships right? The book are very clear about this: forward is up, and spaceships are built like houses, not ships. Yet in the Donnager battle, we see the Captain and First Officer walk around during battle as if they are on the Enterprise, and there are long hallways. Instead, the ships should be narrow, full of ladders, and people in general should be lying on their backs, facing towards the ceiling.

When Holden has his coffee, it seems as if the cupboards are filled with stuff, much like my own. But none of that stuff would be in place on a space ship. Everything needs to be bolted down, or in fixed containers. Otherwise it kills you, or at least gets damaged. This would be so simple to build for the production company, and add a lot of atmosphere and theme. Finally somebody who’d get basic physics of living in a space ship right. Cheap. Thematic. Cool. And it’s correctly done in the books. But instead, the people tasked with interior set design just built the Enterprise again, or the Millenium Falcon.

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4 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

Read the books, watched a few episodes now.

Where is the mandatory bitch-and-moan thread? 

Avasarala is a big disappointment, of course.

Why don’t they get space ships right? The book are very clear about this: forward is up, and spaceships are built like houses, not ships. Yet in the Donnager battle, we see the Captain and First Officer walk around during battle as if they are on the Enterprise, and there are long hallways. Instead, the ships should be narrow, full of ladders, and people in general should be lying on their backs, facing towards the ceiling.

When Holden has his coffee, it seems as if the cupboards are filled with stuff, much like my own. But none of that stuff would be in place on a space ship. Everything needs to be bolted down, or in fixed containers. Otherwise it kills you, or at least gets damaged. This would be so simple to build for the production company, and add a lot of atmosphere and theme. Finally somebody who’d get basic physics of living in a space ship right. Cheap. Thematic. Cool. And it’s correctly done in the books. But instead, the people tasked with interior set design just built the Enterprise again, or the Millenium Falcon.

The Roci is designed with decks stacked on top of each other. And I assumed the Donnager was the same, except that it's a huge ship that you can afford to have long hallways. What bothered me, but it's understandable due to the necessity to have an entire film crew there, is the open wide spaces inside ships. Ships should be designed with every space on them to have a purpose.

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I understood and accepted most of the design of the ships because tv needs a specific sort of set to work well.  I wish they'd paid more attention to detail in certain areas.  I still can't get over those chairs they sit in and how fragile looking they are.  If they went with that, they could have at least had the actors not moving around in them like it was easy and like it wouldn't have broken their neck.  I also can't get over that Holden was drinking coffee straight from a cup instead of a bag or bulb.  That was really lazy set designing.

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Nooo! At the end of s1e5, the (disguised) Rocinante turns its aft towards Tycho Station and fires up the Epstein drive. This would destroy the station.

(And more drinking problems of the type Dr. Pepper mentioned. Water bottles and soda cans. Also, how does the rock hauler work? It pulls a fragile net behind it? Right where the drive plume is?)

I find these tiny mistakes insanely annoying. How many people are involved in such a production who should immediately see this? How does the production organisation work for such reported mistakes to not be taken seriously? There has to be monumental incompetence about sci-fi in set design paired active suppression of relevant feed-back from others. 

Fixing these things is not expensive and adds a lot of very satisfying detail. Grumble-grumble.

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Finished season 1. Very mixed feelings.

Casting, acting, etc. are fine. Shame about Chrisjen not being foul-mouthed, she could have been a real hit.

World-building: There is very little belter physiology. This is probably both for budgetary reasons, but also for identification: I think we’d all be grossed out by belters. Imagine giving Naomi a weirdly long head.

There are many, many avoidable mistakes with basic physics enumerated above, which just annoy me. It’s just as expensive to do this right. This is a production error.

Adaptation: I’ve read the books and had a very hard time understanding what was going on. This is a very, very confusing adaptation of an already-plot heavy book. That makes no sense to me. I can’t understand now anybody could follow what is going on. The writers seem to assume that we can stay interested by just following interesting characters and get absorbed by micro-conflicts with random NPC X or superfluous side-plots. I don’t think that works. The characters in the Expanse are quite flat in the first place, and even flatter in the TV adaptation. And the attempts to make episodic TV by introducing minor characters or inconsequential dialogue between others don’t work for me at all. Tell the story, and tell it in a way that can be understood.

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I completely agree with your last paragraph.

I'm always surprised to read from time to time that the adaptation is better than the books, to the point that I question my own intellect. I read the books, I found them limpid. And when watching the show, I was just completely lost most of the time as to what was happening and why. In what universe does something that confusing and convoluted happen to be better than the source material?

Now, I'm not saying the show is bad. You can enjoy the ride (I did) even if you don't get it, but something is deeply flawed when the audience, a fortiori with the knowledge of the source material, is left behind.

Or again, maybe I'm just stupid.

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I've not read the books but didn't find any trouble following what was going on in the show, Well, sort of. I was slightly confused at first, but it seemed intentional, as many of the things I didn't understand were answered or revealed in detail later in the season.

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I have to admit that I’m still confused about the Anubis, Canterbury, Donnager, etc. What happened in which order? Which faction did what, when, and for which purpose? It’s a relatively complicated set of events (with deliberate obfuscation thrown in by some of the factions), but when I read the books, I felt no confusion. I just let the well-told story unfold, discovering connections when I was supposed to discover them.

Seeing the show now, some years later, leaves me more confused. I am actually unable to explain the chain of events today! (I feel frustration about that.) But I was able to after reading the books. (I felt no frustration then and just enjoyed being along on a good yarn.) This can’t be a good sign.

——

Another missed opportunity: Sense of place. The great thing about the Expanse universe is that it gets place right. Things actually happen somewhere, and these somewheres are real places, and their distances are taken into account and sometimes are important for the plot.

This is in stark contrast to normal SF, in particular on film and TV. There, place is wrong. The most recent blockbusters (Star Wars and Star Trek franchises, re-warmed) are actually extra guilty of this. Spock can see his planet explode, the Millenium Falcon just happens to be there, orbital mechanics at all times are on the intellectual level of a 5-year old. Space ships just hang there, and give battle as if they were naval ships. It’s plain insulting.

Now, with the Expanse, you could have Miller actually take his time looking at one of the cool holographic maps of the Solar system. We can point to Ceres, and Mars, and the Jovian moons, because they really exist. There could be long, establishing shots that zoom into the tiny, tiny rocks that we all inhabit (including Earth) to give us science nerds a real feeling of this actually happening. In a place. Whenever the Roci crew or Miller looks at a map, or the next scene is on Ceres of Phoebe, we could help the viewer locating these things using dirt-cheap CGI maps and zooming out and in from solar-system wide maps. That gives an immense sense of atmosphere (in particular, the constant dread of inhabiting incredibly tiny objects of rock or metal that orbit the sun amidst a huge vacuum). 

We are not used to see this, because normal SF is just wrong and would never survive those maps. But the Expanse gets it right. This is a wasted opportunity, both thematically and for building a fan base.

Also, it’s cheap. Every video game has this today.

Instead, the TV show treats the locations as “just hanging there”, separated by “time spent in the spaceship set” for the “duration required by the plot.” It’s as if the set designers don’t trust the solidity of the setting. (And in all other SF, they would be right.)

Grumble-grumble.

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Well... Miller literally projected a map and explained the mechanics of it in one scene.  So I don't know what to tell you other than perhaps you missed an episode?

Anubis left Phoebe station to go to Eros.  Julie Mao got the OPA to send the Scopuli with herself in it to intercept Anubis.  Scopuli killed, then Canterbury killed because they heard Julie's distress signal probably, then Donnager killed to get at Canterbury's survivors.

The original why is Anubis going to Eros, in order to do their experiment, and didn't want anything publicly revealed yet.  More than that hasn't been discovered in the show.  It's only 2/3rds of the first book, after all.

 

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I think the plot was better laid out in the show than in the book, but it has been awhile since I've read the book. Having the background stuff that was taking place on Earth helped. For example, when I read the book I didn't know that the guys that ambush the Roci crew in the hotel were UN black ops. I thought they were part of the same group that was doing all the bad stuff.

And between Miller laying out a holographic projection of the solar system and the background episode with Julie, I think all the events surrounding the Anubis and the Scopuli were explained well.

One thing that wasn't explained, but the book didn't either as I recall, was why did the stealth ship guys insist on boarding the Donnager? Why not just blow up the ship?

The show also did a good job at showing the cultural and social issues that separate the three main sides.

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Have to agree.  Actually, I thought they went a little overboard with explaining the sequence of events.  It's like first we watched the order of events happen, then Miller told us with a hologram, then we had a Julie-centric episode that told us again.  

Good point, @Corvinus, about the people who boarded the Donnager.  It seemed stupid and just meant to make sure Holden saw that they had crazy tech.  I guess a good explanation for them boarding was to try to steal tech off the Donnager and they didn't truly expect the Donnager to blow itself up before they completed that task.

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5 hours ago, White Walker Texas Ranger said:

Donnager was in the vicinity because it was investigating Phoebe.

Blowing up the Canterbury was intentional shit-stirring. I don't remember whether it was planned, or oppurtunistic.

I'm pretty sure its opportunistic, but they seemed to know the Scopuli was going to try ambush them. For HE an expanded timeline:

  • Protomolecule is being looked at on Phoebe, they decide they're ready to expirement on Eros and the Anubis picks it up.
  • Some time before or after (I lean to before, but not yet identified) the pick up the protomolecule gets out of containment, the station is destroyed and torched to cover up/decontaminate.
  • Donnager is dispatched to investigate Phoebe and arrives at a similar time that...
  • Prologue/Ep1 cold open start + Ep9- the Scopuli ambushes the Anubis and is boarded instead, crew is transferred to the Anubis for protomolecule culture. Day 0
  • Holden 1/After the credits Ep1? - Anubis crew set off a Martian Navy manufactured distress beacon on the Scopuli, received by the Cant which then burns to investigate
  • Holden 2+3+Prologue/Ep1 open+Ep9 - Holden etc investigate the Scopuli and find the Martian beacon, Anubis reveals itself and nukes the Cant but deliberately leaves Holden etc alive as witnesses who believe it to be Martians (see intentional shit stirring - this is part of the plan), I think this is Day 3.
  • Holden 4/Ep 2 - Holden makes his broadcast
  • Miller 3/Avasarala early episodes - Water riots break out in the belt, Earth and Mars are on the verge of war.
  • Holden 5 - Donnager returning from Phoebe (having found nothing) signals that it will collect Holden etc on the Knight, Holden broadcasts this and the 6 unidentified ships start burning for the Knight/Donnager / in the show they were close together disguised as a single ship.
  • Prologue/Ep1 cold open start + Ep9 - Protomolecule has broken containment on the Anubis, reactor is turned off and the ship goes quiet Day 6*
  • Show only - By this point Avasarala has used her fathers friend to spook the Martians and confirmed they weren't behind it, so war between Earth and Mars isnt escalating, but between Mars and the Belt is
  • Holden 7 - They're picked up by the Donnager, the other Protogen ships engage upon arrival, then start boarding. Holden etc escape on the newly christened Rocinante and the Donnager self destructs. Worth noting that Alex comments on reasons for boarding including the CIC containing "deployments, computer cores, the works" - its not just a random ship, this is the Martian flagship.
  • Prologue/Ep1 cold open start + Ep9 - Julie gets out of the locker, investigates the ship and finds it empty, finds the crew of both ships absorbed into a mass around the reactor. Day 8. Then pieces together what happened and gets infected, leaves the ship tethered to the asteroid and leaves for Eros (not sure how long this took).
  • Holden 8 onwards - Roci heads to Tycho, Fred receives Julie's signal and deploys Holden etc to investigate Julie on Eros (or the asteroid first in the show)

My impression of the sequence trying to start a war is that the solar system needed to be in chaos so that no one was able to effectively investigate what happened to Phoebe and what was happening to Eros. Boarding the Donnager could have been simply for the value of its intelligence, or it could have been part of creating the narrative that shapes the war - the drive signatures showing the attacking ships are of Earth origin continues the escalation only if someone survives to get that data off. I'm guessing top priority was actually capturing Holden etc or allowing them to get away again as happens, but in the chaos of battle that isn't always followed so closely. They could very easily have killed Holden etc prior to boarding the Donnager, so boarding is very likely not intended to simply kill them.

The show really cleared up my understanding of the timeline with regards to the Anubis and Scopuli and what fights it was involved in, so I'm surprised someone who read the books would find it more difficult to follow rather than less.

*I'm not positive on whether the Anubis crew dying happens before or after the Donnager, but its not at that battle and I think the timeline fits better with it happening before, so Fred it receiving the signal right about the time Holden etc get to Tycho.

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Thank you Kar, this is extremely helpful. I tried to add additional notes about motivation and factions, and already feel I’m on thin ice: 

True/false: The MCRC Donnager is dispatched to Phoebe by an unsuspecting Martian republic just to check out weird stuff around Phoebe. Mars knows nothing about the protomolecule. 

True/false: The Butcher sends the Martian-built, OPA-controlled freighter Scopuli to intercept/destroy/board the Anubis because … what? Does the OPA know about the molecule? (There was a scene about that in the show. The book is too far gone in my mind to remember whether this was addressed.)

True/false: The fact that the (boarded and evacuated) Scopuli would be used as a trap to have somebody (in fact, our Heroes) falsely accuse MCRC of destroying the Canterbury is just a lucky piece of improvisation by the Protogen people.

——

Other reaction: Oh, I saw Holden with the hologram. But I want 10 times as much of that, and I want it slowly, so that we can follow it. Not only is it cool to look at, for once it would make sense. (There are plenty of shows where people point to fake maps that clearly would never hold up to close investigation. Technobabble, or maybe “map-babble.” But with the Expanse it is all true. You could use that for exposition, instead of just atmosphere/cool visuals. I know that my inner 14-year old would get a kick out of scene transitions that would involve zooming in and out of the solar system whenever we move from Earth to Ceres, say. And the benefit in terms of both setting and atmosphere (the enormous sense of vastness) would be immense.)

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7 hours ago, Happy Ent said:

Thank you Kar, this is extremely helpful. I tried to add additional notes about motivation and factions, and already feel I’m on thin ice: 

True/false: The MCRC Donnager is dispatched to Phoebe by an unsuspecting Martian republic just to check out weird stuff around Phoebe. Mars knows nothing about the protomolecule. 

True/false: The Butcher sends the Martian-built, OPA-controlled freighter Scopuli to intercept/destroy/board the Anubis because … what? Does the OPA know about the molecule? (There was a scene about that in the show. The book is too far gone in my mind to remember whether this was addressed.)

True/false: The fact that the (boarded and evacuated) Scopuli would be used as a trap to have somebody (in fact, our Heroes) falsely accuse MCRC of destroying the Canterbury is just a lucky piece of improvisation by the Protogen people.

The Martian government did not know about the protomolecule, but Phoebe was a Martian research station, so someone from Mars does know. 

Fred Johnson suspected it was some valuable research, but didn't (and still doesn't) know what.

The plant of the Mars beacon and attraction of the Canterbury was planned, though at first it may have been a bit of improvisation. The organization that is playing with the protomolecule wanted to start their massive experiment on Eros, but they felt that it could attract unwanted attention from both Earth and Mars too soon. So they knew they had to create a massive diversion so no one could watch them. They used the Scopuli for that. Now it's possible that they leaked the information about the Anubis to the OPA knowing that the OPA would not be able to resist such a tempting target. I'm not sure if this was revealed in the book.

Edit: I believe this video does a far better job than me at clearing it all up. :P

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