Spoilers entire series: Who Cares How Jon is Ressurected...How Will it Change Him, and By How Much...Detailed Analysis

[Free Northman Reborn]

To speculate a bit more, we know that Shireen is going to be burned, as Martin has confirmed after the Show spoiled it. But we also know that Book Stannis would never do this, and that he has in fact dispatched Massey to raise 20k sellswords to carry on the fight on Shireen's behalf should Stannis die. So clearly, Mellisandre is going to sacrifice Shireen without Stannis's approval.

And the only reason she would do this, is if she realised that Jon and not Stannis is in fact Azor Ahai, and that she needs Shireen's King's Blood to raise Azor Ahai amidst smoke and salt.

But I think Mellisandre's spell will fail, and Jon will remain dead. Because Fire alone is not his Song. Ice and Fire is his song. At this point, Bran will step in, as we have already seen in the chapter from Winds, and guide Theon to a Heart Tree, where he will be executed. Once his blood flows into the tree, the spell will be complete, and Bran and Mellisandre together would have raised Jon with the blood of two Kings.

Incidentally, that might also be why Stannis has to be dead, since Shireen only becomes the true Queen once Stannis has died.

[drayrock]

4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I don't know. I certainly don't think that Jon is just going to be resurrected like another Beric or Catelyn. He won't be un-Jon. His resurrection will be one of the turning points of the entire series. It will be more unique.

I am convinced that we will see a fulfilment of the prophecy of two or three Kings' death need to raise a dragon, with Jon being the dragon. But this is not a spell that is unique to Fire Magic. Because it is not Fire Magic. It is Blood Magic, ultimately, which powers all magic, whether it be the power of a Shadowbinder from Asshai or the power of the Children of the Forest. It is all powered by the life force in the blood of living things.

And the more powerful the spell you need, the more powerful the blood sacrifice needs to be. Note that the greenseers sacrificed 1000 Children of the Forest on the Isle of Faces to power the spell needed for the Hammer of the Waters. So the idea that only death can pay for life, only blood can pay for magical power, is an old one, common to all magic in the Ice and Fire universe.

So I think Jon will be resurrected by having some powerful blood magic take place. King's blood indeed seems to carry more power than normal blood. So I would be looking for some likely Kings to be sacrificed to raise the most important King of them all from the dead.

Candidates with King's Blood abound. Just in the North, we have Stannis, Shireen, Theon and Mance. I expect one or more of them to be sacrificed in front of a Heart Tree to raise Jon from the midst of his pyre. Thus combining the magic of the Old Gods with that of Mellisandre. Giving truth to the prophecy that his (Jon's) is the Song of Ice and Fire.

I can agree that it will be special but I'm not sure it needs to be any particular people or kings or that its a ice and fire gods that are fufilling the prophecy. Jon is the son of Ice and Fire and I think is the main point there (although I'll give you there is a lot of duality in other ways with in this character as well). 

Where I do agree is that blood powers all magic. And I think this brings up a good discussion on how blood magic can be used and what makes it stronger and more affective. I believe that intent, or purity of intent in using something as a sacrifice does play a role in the affects and a effective ness of the blood magic, no matter what the practitioners background is. 

For instance the children did it to stop a genocide and protect nature and their domain. Good intent and good result (or powerful result I should say).

In the instance of the Ned Stark, his intent was good everytime he committed a beheading. It was to keep a law abiding and peaceful realm with a swift justice to those that threatened the peace and broke the laws. He swung the sword himself so as to truly appreciate the weight of his choice, and in that way carried the weight and responsibility of the deaths he decreed internally for the rest of his life, beyond just ordering them as a burecratic processes. He lived with the choices and dealt with their interanl affects. He then cleaned his sword at the heart tree. He took this time after to pray and I imagine reflect on the value of life and what he had just done. This mature and peaceful intent to blood sacrifice was rewarded with 6 direwolf pups as protectors for the living he most cared for. 

I think the same thing carries over with the battles of the old first men, where the losers would have their entrails hung from trees...obviously a little more gruesome as that's the way they were back then but I think it could be seen in a less gruesome than initially perceived in a few ways 1) a public way to show the cost and horror of war so that it was not glorified, but displayed at its true form...a brutal destruction of human life. 2) a way to find some benefit from the blood loss by contributing it to the gods in the form of blood sacrifice from the fallen with prayers for better harvests and longer reprieves from the devastating winters which could help all northerners.

Looking at those that were performed with a little less nobel intent...Stannis and his shadow assasinations. This was selfish...as much as it was said he needed to by Melisandre as he was the chosen one, he knew he was doing it just to get the crown. Whereas in her case, she believed he actually was the hero reborn and intended these sacrifices to save the world therefore the ends justified the means. She is not haunted by them...Stannis was greatly both mentally and physically because of their toll on him....I add this to it's selfish intent and lack of a pure motivation for using the blood sacrifice.

Another example in this vein is Robert Strong. Cersei brutally and unjustly murdered many for this sacrifice to bring him back and it looks like he'll just be a mindless killing machine, losing whatever freedom of thought he barely had prior. 

Beric's was done out of love for a friend who had the intent to serve justice for a noble cause.

Interesting to consider how intent will play a role here...

Also interesting to consider if it was Bran who helped resurrect...how would it go down. They're last communication happened via ghost as well. 

Interesting to consider how intent will affect Jon's circumstances around resurrection...what will they be. What's the intent. 

 

[drayrock]

4 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

To speculate a bit more, we know that Shireen is going to be burned, as Martin has confirmed after the Show spoiled it. But we also know that Book Stannis would never do this, and that he has in fact dispatched Massey to raise 20k sellswords to carry on the fight on Shireen's behalf should Stannis die. So clearly, Mellisandre is going to sacrifice Shireen without Stannis's approval.

And the only reason she would do this, is if she realised that Jon and not Stannis is in fact Azor Ahai, and that she needs Shireen's King's Blood to raise Azor Ahai amidst smoke and salt.

But I think Mellisandre's spell will fail, and Jon will remain dead. Because Fire alone is not his Song. Ice and Fire is his song. At this point, Bran will step in, as we have already seen in the chapter from Winds, and guide Theon to a Heart Tree, where he will be executed. Once his blood flows into the tree, the spell will be complete, and Bran and Mellisandre together would have raised Jon with the blood of two Kings.

Incidentally, that might also be why Stannis has to be dead, since Shireen only becomes the true Queen once Stannis has died.

Damn haven't read that sample, only theon chapter 1. THAT is interesting. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

22 minutes ago, drayrock said:

Damn haven't read that sample, only theon chapter 1. THAT is interesting. 

I was referring only to Theon I. There are no further spoiler chapters released for the Northern storyline. In that chapter Bran is guiding Theon to the Heart Tree, supposedly to be executed for his crimes.

[Onion Ring Knight]

5 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

To speculate a bit more, we know that Shireen is going to be burned, as Martin has confirmed after the Show spoiled it.

When and where did he do that? 

[b09boy]

I see focus so much about ways upon which Jon could remain the same, or not lose so much of himself as the likes of Beric and Cat or even Gregor, but I think this is wishful thinking.  We want the character to be that which we've known and seen grow over the years, and to come out on top better than he ever was.  But what comes back I don't believe will be entirely human, or humane, if you will.  Rational, perhaps.  Stark-like, in the old way likely.  What I think he will lose is sympathy.  How far this loss touches is another matter for debate, but recall that this is a character who has gone out of their way to help many others, and whose flashes of rage have been extraordinary.  And I have to wonder what example might be set to showcase this loss.

[drayrock]

 

1 hour ago, b09boy said:

I see focus so much about ways upon which Jon could remain the same, or not lose so much of himself as the likes of Beric and Cat or even Gregor, but I think this is wishful thinking.  We want the character to be that which we've known and seen grow over the years, and to come out on top better than he ever was.  But what comes back I don't believe will be entirely human, or humane, if you will.  Rational, perhaps.  Stark-like, in the old way likely.  What I think he will lose is sympathy.  How far this loss touches is another matter for debate, but recall that this is a character who has gone out of their way to help many others, and whose flashes of rage have been extraordinary.  And I have to wonder what example might be set to showcase this loss.

I agree. Stark kings of winter. But let's elaborate on his flashes of rage? Can't think of any as extraordinary as you're mentioning of the top of my head. 

[b09boy]

10 minutes ago, drayrock said:

 

I agree. Stark kings of winter. But let's elaborate on his flashes of rage? Can't think of any as extraordinary as you're mentioning of the top of my head. 

Some I think you can see just in the beginning, which we put up to being drunk or getting accustomed to his new role in Castle Black.  Things like his outburst at the feast or beating other recruits to a complete pulp.  Eventually, between Tyrion and Sam, we see him contain this for the most part and he keeps himself in control, in part because he's discovering depths of duty under Mormont and especially Halfhand, and later because he cannot afford to lose his cool, being surrounded by wildlings, though he does explode once more, briefly, nearly killing Thorne in an outburst which has him imprisoned.  We don't see him explode quite like that again until, I believe, when he is detained upon Slynt's arrival, where he actually physically picks someone up by the throat.

[drayrock]

9 minutes ago, b09boy said:

Some I think you can see just in the beginning, which we put up to being drunk or getting accustomed to his new role in Castle Black.  Things like his outburst at the feast or beating other recruits to a complete pulp.  Eventually, between Tyrion and Sam, we see him contain this for the most part and he keeps himself in control, in part because he's discovering depths of duty under Mormont and especially Halfhand, and later because he cannot afford to lose his cool, being surrounded by wildlings, though he does explode once more, briefly, nearly killing Thorne in an outburst which has him imprisoned.  We don't see him explode quite like that again until, I believe, when he is detained upon Slynt's arrival, where he actually physically picks someone up by the throat.

I just don't see his character regressing. A lot of those instances are at the beginning of his character arc as he's learning to lead, which is why most of them are in the first book. "I think kill the boy" is a fair analysis though. He will be more ruthless, but no one wants to read about someone with no emotion. He'll just kill his enemies instead of trying placate them as a neutral lord commander.