Heresy 184

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Bran's ability to fly is what Bloodraven is alluding to when he says Bran will be able to see beyond the trees. But he must learn to control his flight. 

[Black Crow]

Exactly so, hence the speculation as to the meaning of Euron's musing that he had once dreamed he could fly. And as I recall [pray correct me if I'm wrong] it was a maester put an end to that nonsense.

[Melifeather]

I've got an idea about how to decipher the "impaled dreamers" that was "birthed" out of a similar conversation with ac, Ser Duncan, Flagons, and Weasel Pie, but first the passage:

 

Quote

 

"Bran looked at the crow on his shoulder, and the crow looked back. It had three eyes, and the third eye was full of a terrible knowledge. Bran looked down. There was nothing below him now but snow and cold and death, a frozen wasteland where jagged blue-white spires of ice waited to embrace him. They flew up at him like spears. He saw the bones of a thousand other dreamers impaled upon their points. He was desperately afraid."

It is a belief of mine that the Long Night was the last and final "sword" that the Children forged in order to slay the Others, and that they used fire magic to conjure the comet called Lightbringer. I offer the following evidence:

Azor Ahai's first sword was tempered in water: the hammer of waters

second sword tempered in heart of a lion: the children tried fighting back

third sword tempered in Nissa Nissa: Nissa = moon, Nissa Nissa = 2 moons

While the third sword defeated the Others with fiery meteors and forced them north beyond the Wall, it didn't completely annihilate them. So the singers impaled on the spires represent all the greenseers that have fought, failed, or died in the various attempts to defeat the Others.

[Summer Is Coming!]

59 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It is a belief of mine that the Long Night was the last and final "sword" that the Children forged in order to slay the Others, and that they used fire magic to conjure the comet called Lightbringer. I offer the following evidence:

Azor Ahai's first sword was tempered in water: the hammer of waters

second sword tempered in heart of a lion: the children tried fighting back

third sword tempered in Nissa Nissa: Nissa = moon, Nissa Nissa = 2 moons

While the third sword defeated the Others with fiery meteors and forced them north beyond the Wall, it didn't completely annihilate them. So the singers impaled on the spires represent all the greenseers that have fought, failed, or died in the various attempts to defeat the Others.

Interesting thought, do you think thousands of impaled Singers represents few Singers spread out over many years or a few large groups that were more coordinated?  I believe some of the legends suggest that there were a larger number of Singers potentially involved in the Hammer of the Waters, but what about for the others?

Also, how would the Singers' three attempts become the Azor Ahai legend in the reaches of Essos and possibly even the Rhoynar legend involving the Turtle?  Were the Singers also in these locations and now disappeared or did the word somehow travel to Essos afterwards?  This is a pretty cool interpretation of Azor Ahai.

[Melifeather]

34 minutes ago, Summer Is Coming! said:

Interesting thought, do you think thousands of impaled Singers represents few Singers spread out over many years or a few large groups that were more coordinated?  I believe some of the legends suggest that there were a larger number of Singers potentially involved in the Hammer of the Waters, but what about for the others?

Also, how would the Singers' three attempts become the Azor Ahai legend in the reaches of Essos and possibly even the Rhoynar legend involving the Turtle?  Were the Singers also in these locations and now disappeared or did the word somehow travel to Essos afterwards?  This is a pretty cool interpretation of Azor Ahai.

The passage states a thousand singers died, and it might very well be that many of them were sacrificed...and what a sacrifice that would be considering how few in number the children are to begin with and how small a ratio were actually singers (greenseers). But the fighting likely lasted thousands of years also.

Before written word there was an oral tradition and stories get passed, so after thousands of years it shouldn't be surprising if the story reached Essos, especially when it's repeated by people involved in magic and mystism like Melisandre, although I think Salladhor Saan also knew the story, but he's a pirate and would naturally hear stories from all over the world due to his profession.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Summer Is Coming! said:

Interesting thought, do you think thousands of impaled Singers represents few Singers spread out over many years or a few large groups that were more coordinated?  I believe some of the legends suggest that there were a larger number of Singers potentially involved in the Hammer of the Waters, but what about for the others?

Also, how would the Singers' three attempts become the Azor Ahai legend in the reaches of Essos and possibly even the Rhoynar legend involving the Turtle?  Were the Singers also in these locations and now disappeared or did the word somehow travel to Essos afterwards?  This is a pretty cool interpretation of Azor Ahai.

According to the World Book there were great sacrifices made, both of Singers and human captives to bring about the Hammer. Where Feather and I appear to differ is that I don't see a unified field theory here but rather see the three-fingered tree-huggers as the wrong lot, and when GRRM speaks of maester and greenseer uniting, I tend to see it as Bran realising he's been duped and returning to the realms of men rather than singers and men uniting against an  faceless foe.

[Arry'sFleas]

The passage quoted by Feather talks about 'dreamers'. Are singers and dreamers the same? 

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

The passage quoted by Feather talks about 'dreamers'. Are singers and dreamers the same? 

Not at all, they are exactly what the passage says. Dreamers, like Bran and perhaps Euron. Bran flew, Euron didn't.

[shizett]

I might be late a bit to the discussion as most of the discussion in this regard happened in Heresy 183, but I was thinking (mostly) on Wolfmaid's theory of having a controlling GS behind wights and Armstark's idea of WW being GS. You might have discussed it before though.
So here it is:

If the histories are jumbled and timelines are not exact, could be that the burning of the trees (by andals or firstmen) were done to finish the long night? If there is a GS behind the long night, weirwood network could be control center to make sure wights stay on track. So, basically there are two methods of control for wights: trees and WWs. By burning the weirwood trees, some of the control was lost. So here, the story of last hero is the other way around. CF are the ones invoking guest right to find refuge from burnings. House Stark with their guest right denying statues (that are a memorial of this historic event) denied guest right as was mirrored in Robb's reaction to Tyrion(a tiny human-cat) and CF found refuge at the wall under Night's King protection. They were offered amnesty in the other side of the wall which led to Stark of WF and King-beyond-the-wall to unite and overthrow NK.

That is why there is the WF crypts and a Stark at the wall to make sure this never happens again.

Also, they took Bran (the Stark in WF) out of WF and in the tress under the guest right contract, where he cannot harm them anymore.

Unfortunately I cannot think of any recent history that Starks granted guest right to someone where they shouldn't have and set off the chain of events again.

[Black Crow]

I'm still much more inclined to "rewrite" the histories as the Long Night being brought down as the Last Hurrah of the Old Powers and the reason why the Pact was brought about, with the Wall being built afterwards not to defend the realms of Men but the Otherlands beyond and eventually to provide a refuge for the Old Races, when men, led by the Andals, counter-attacked.

Part of the key to this is the question of the castles and how dodgy that list of Lord Commanders is. Although cut off by Jon Sam appeared to be saying that there was something badly wrong with it, and we also know that the building of the castles also seems to be suspiciously close in time to the arrival of the Andals.

[Tanngrisnir]

Am I the only one who finds the word "embrace" out of place in Brans POV bood quotation? The jagged spears of ice waited to embrace him? Very likely just an odd phrase for me, but when I think of ice embracing, I see things beeing encases and trapped by ice, not things beeing impaled. 

I really wonder what those impaled bones on ice are supposed to represent. Where they sacraficed for ice? Did they try to achieve something and failed/fell.

 

Unrelatetly, black crow- after you talked about events possibly beeing the same/happening at the same time, like the Andal invasion and the battle of the dawn- a piece of the World Book came into my mind. Was there not a short mention of a Gardiner king showering a woodswitch with gold and honours after she promised to stop the invasion with armies raised from the dead? 

[Black Crow]

 

7 minutes ago, Tanngrisnir said:

Am I the only one who finds the word "embrace" out of place in Brans POV bood quotation? The jagged spears of ice waited to embrace him? Very likely just an odd phrase for me, but when I think of ice embracing, I see things beeing encases and trapped by ice, not things beeing impaled. 

I really wonder what those impaled bones on ice are supposed to represent. Where they sacraficed for ice? Did they try to achieve something and failed/fell.

 

Unrelatetly, black crow- after you talked about events possibly beeing the same/happening at the same time, like the Andal invasion and the battle of the dawn- a piece of the World Book came into my mind. Was there not a short mention of a Gardiner king showering a woodswitch with gold and honours after she promised to stop the invasion with armies raised from the dead? 

Welcome to Heresy 

I can understand the use of the term embrace and think its a perfectly acceptable term in the circumstances. In the context I don't think that its necessary to search for a hidden meaning. Bran is dreaming. Bran is dreaming of flying, or rather falling. He sees the bones of other dreamers and is unequivocally told that will be his fate too if he doesn't fly. So he flies. They didn't.

 

As to the completely different thought on one of the Gardiner kings. I don't remember that passage. That's not to say I don't believe it ; simply that not remembering it I can't comment with any authority on that particular passage other than to point out that the stories are littered with references to necromancy - the Barrow Kings being a prominent example - and that the Andals may have been welcomed and the three-fingered tree-huggers forced to flee precisely because it put an end to such nonsense

[Arry'sFleas]

18 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Not at all, they are exactly what the passage says. Dreamers, like Bran and perhaps Euron. Bran flew, Euron didn't.

yes, i understood the Dreamers to refer to humans, perhaps would be Greenseers who failed. And the Singers to be the CotF. 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

"Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger," Lord Brynden said one day, after Bran had learned to fly, "and only one skinchanger in a thousand can be a greenseer."

"I thought the greenseers were the wizards of the children," Bran said. "The singers, I mean."

"In a sense. Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

 

In this text BR says that the CotF also have their Greenseers, identified by their blood red or moss green eyes. Not sure if Bran has spotted one yet. But it raises the possibility that there is one lurking somewhere and also that there may even be more than one 'faction' of Singers.

[wolfmaid7]

Danm the other thread is closed already!!!

[shizett]

12 hours ago, Black Crow said:

'm still much more inclined to "rewrite" the histories as the Long Night being brought down as the Last Hurrah of the Old Powers and the reason why the Pact was brought about, with the Wall being built afterwards not to defend the realms of Men but the Otherlands beyond and eventually to provide a refuge for the Old Races, when men, led by the Andals, counter-attacked.

Part of the key to this is the question of the castles and how dodgy that list of Lord Commanders is. Although cut off by Jon Sam appeared to be saying that there was something badly wrong with it, and we also know that the building of the castles also seems to be suspiciously close in time to the arrival of the Andals.

I agree with you to some extent. But I have trouble accepting the wall is built after the long night, but not to contain whatever caused it (so pro human) but to protect those beyond the wall. And even worse, a lot of people ended up on the other side of the wall.

Also, the reason I said maybe NK's problem was granting passage to or amnesty on the other side of the wall was that if the LOAW are the source of Ice magic, cutting the WWs and Wights off from there would weaken them.

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

In this text BR says that the CotF also have their Greenseers, identified by their blood red or moss green eyes. Not sure if Bran has spotted one yet. But it raises the possibility that there is one lurking somewhere and also that there may even be more than one 'faction' of Singers.

Bran hasn't knowingly seen one, although there was that chamber full of seemingly dead singers in the tree-roots, some of whom opened their eyes. Bear in mind though that in the darkness of the caves identifying them by eye-colour isn't exactly easy.

Likewise although Bloodraven is referred to as the greenseer and the last greenseer, some of us in these here parts are inclined to suspect that he is the last human greenseer, providing the three-fingered tree-huggers with a window into the world of men.

[Black Crow]

25 minutes ago, shizett said:

I agree with you to some extent. But I have trouble accepting the wall is built after the long night, but not to contain whatever caused it (so pro human) but to protect those beyond the wall. And even worse, a lot of people ended up on the other side of the wall.

Also, the reason I said maybe NK's problem was granting passage to or amnesty on the other side of the wall was that if the LOAW are the source of Ice magic, cutting the WWs and Wights off from there would weaken them.

The existence of the wildlings is an argument that the Wall iis not what its claimed to be. If its intended to protect the realms of men why leave so many men outside its protection? Rather it suggests it was planted by someone else, especially when we look at the castles and how for the first half of its existence there were no castles on the Wall - and by extension no garrison save for the watch on the Black Gate.

Hence the heretical suggestion that the overthrow of the Nights King and the establishment of the present Watch is connected with the coming of the Andals.

[Neds Secret]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The existence of the wildlings is an argument that the Wall iis not what its claimed to be. If its intended to protect the realms of men why leave so many men outside its protection? Rather it suggests it was planted by someone else, especially when we look at the castles and how for the first half of its existence there were no castles on the Wall - and by extension no garrison save for the watch on the Black Gate.

Hence the heretical suggestion that the overthrow of the Nights King and the establishment of the present Watch is connected with the coming of the Andals.

Yeah, I sort of wonder why there are so many wildlings just north of the wall and so many leagues of sparsely populated land south of it, with so many abandoned castles and forts and   Farms and such. It's mentioned somewhere that Benjen and Ned were dreaming up some sort of repopulation plan but it's a mystery to me why it took so long for someone to look into it, even Stannis, a southern lord, sees its potential, I guess it's just a plot necessity or something for the Wildlings to be so numerous and north of the wall, but to me someone should have thought of making the wildlings citizens of North Westeros eons ago, 

[Armstark]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The existence of the wildlings is an argument that the Wall iis not what its claimed to be. If its intended to protect the realms of men why leave so many men outside its protection? Rather it suggests it was planted by someone else, especially when we look at the castles and how for the first half of its existence there were no castles on the Wall - and by extension no garrison save for the watch on the Black Gate.

Hence the heretical suggestion that the overthrow of the Nights King and the establishment of the present Watch is connected with the coming of the Andals.

It should be noted that the bolded part is just speculation based on this quote:

 

"Twice as old as Castle Black," Bran said, remembering. "It was the first castle on the Wall, and the largest."

 

I am not sure I agree with it because other castles could be much older than Castle Black. Maybe Castle Black was the last castle built (except Queensgate), who knows?

 

8 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Danm the other thread is closed already!!!

Nevertheless I am still interested in your explanation of "impaled on ice".

 

1 minute ago, Neds Secret said:

Yeah, I sort of wonder why there are so many wildlings just north of the wall and so many leagues of sparsely populated land south of it, with so many abandoned castles and forts and   Farms and such. It's mentioned somewhere that Benjen and Ned were dreaming up some sort of repopulation plan but it's a mystery to me why it took so long for someone to look into it, even Stannis, a southern lord, sees its potential, I guess it's just a plot necessity or something for the Wildlings to be so numerous and north of the wall, but to me someone should have thought of making the wildlings citizens of North Westeros eons ago, 

The land north of the Wall is just as sparsely populated as the land south of it, I think. It just seems like there are a lot of wildlings because Mance gathered all of them in one place, some from very far away.

 

I think the wildlings would have (and maybe have) resisted all efforts to bring them into the realm. They do not kneel.

[TheMiddleHero]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

 

Likewise although Bloodraven is referred to as the greenseer and the last greenseer, some of us in these here parts are inclined to suspect that he is the last human greenseer, providing the three-fingered tree-huggers with a window into the world of men.

I have to double check, but I am not sure Bloodraven is ever directly said to be the last greenseer. It seems to be mentioned in context when asking who the 3EC is.