Heresy 184

[Black Crow]

7 hours ago, Matthew. said:

Incidentally, it's not an uncommon suggestion that bringing back(?) or raising an ice dragon is the ultimate purpose of Jon's speculative mixed heritage.

Anent that one, there are indeed a number of theories out there including the assertion that Jon [assuming R+L=J to be true] is the Ice Dragon.

I remain mindful of the fact that in the earlier story it was the lone Ice Dragon who saved the day by destroying the three fire dragons, albeit sacrificing itself in the process. I can't help but feel that this may be part of GRRM's bittersweet ending.

[Arry'sFleas]

as an alternative to dragons, a murders of crows can effectively deal with a murder of wights (gotta find a more appropriate group name for these). Coldhands has his own little army of crows securing his overnight camps.

But you'd have to admit, dragons make great TV!

[Arry'sFleas]

18 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Its an interesting. idea but I think people would be inclined to notice if the face changed, especially given that they are assumed to be carved and therefore fixed

what about the Wf heart tree which appears to Theon to be laughing at the fake wedding?

there is enough magic associated with the weirwoods to allow for changing faces.

[Armstark]

20 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Now this makes a lot of sense, given that they are all in the Red Keep. Unless the Targs went on some dragon skull hunting expedition in Westeros. Which would be an interesting side note. But, keeping the souls of family dragons (like house elves???) makes sense. 

 

It is interesting that the Targaryens keep the skulls of their dragons but burn their own to ashes. 

 

Bones and skulls are used for advice or guidance from the dead it seems to me. 

 

Clarence Crabb and his whispering heads.

The Golden Company with its golden skulls of Bittersteel and his successors.

The cave of skulls and Heart Trees in general.

 

That the Targaryens keep the dragon-skulls suggest that the dragons are the dominant partner in their relationship.

 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Armstark said:

That the Targaryens keep the dragon-skulls suggest that the dragons are the dominant partner in their relationship.

 

I can definitely go with this one. Its exactly what we've talked about on direwolves and I also can't help thinking whether this might also be the root of the celebrated Targaryen madness - albeit the more recent ones didn't have direct access allowing dragons to screw with their minds

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

what about the Wf heart tree which appears to Theon to be laughing at the fake wedding?

there is enough magic associated with the weirwoods to allow for changing faces.

Possible, though only perhaps in Theon's guilty mind. 

On balance I'm still more inclined to go with the trees reflecting the willing and unwilling sacrifices made to them. In this context its also worth remembering the tree found by Asha Greyjoy and the Mormont girl - the tree-hugger's face on that one didn't change to reflect either of them.

[Matthew.]

I think dragons as a cause of Targ Madness would hold more water if it weren't for the fact that most of the more notoriously crazy Targs came after the death of the last dragon. As far as Dany herself goes, she doesn't seem mentally ill in the physical sense, and if there's anything driving her toward madness it's Quaithe, not the dragons.

[Black Crow]

10 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I think dragons as a cause of Targ Madness would hold more water if it weren't for the fact that most of the more notoriously crazy Targs came after the death of the last dragon. 

Perhaps its withdrawal symptoms   If there's a symbiotic relationship and half of that relationship is missing it could lead to problems

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

15 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I think dragons as a cause of Targ Madness would hold more water if it weren't for the fact that most of the more notoriously crazy Targs came after the death of the last dragon.

A good point. In my opinion, "Targ Madness" is essentially just an obsession with prophecy and its fulfillment - aided and abetted by dragon dreams.  (And of course, prophecy probably boils down to dreaming in the first place.)

In fact, you can make a good list of the many bizarre things Targs have done during their time in Westeros... and many or most of them can be tied to interpretation (or misinterpretation) of prophecy.  Assuming the "prince that was promised" is taken to be a Targ family prophecy, known for some time...

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

A good point. In my opinion, "Targ Madness" is essentially just an obsession with prophecy and its fulfillment - aided and abetted by dragon dreams.  (And of course, prophecy probably boils down to dreaming in the first place.)

In fact, you can make a good list of the many bizarre things Targs have done during their time in Westeros... and many or most of them can be tied to interpretation (or misinterpretation) of prophecy.  Assuming the "prince that was promised" is taken to be a Targ family prophecy, known for some time...

Depends. I don't see drinking wildfire as being connected with prophecy as such, but it does appear to be coming from a desperate need for dragonkind.

GRRM has been deliberately vague about the Prince that Was Promised and a connection to Azor Ahai. Its also worth looking though at the Dothraki prophecy, which seems to share something of a common theme. The Dothraki ride horses and expect their promised Prince to ride a stallion to victory over the world. Now if we take Maester Aemon's cry about getting the gender wrong it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to recognise Danaerys the Dragonlord not only as the Prince that was Promised but also recognise her rather than her lost son as the Stallion.

That's an argument in itself of course, but the point is [and this is very clear from Maester Aemon's cry] that the Prince needs a dragon and a Targaryen not possessed of a dragon cannot aspire to be recognised as the Prince. In that sense therefore doing some weird stuff to secure the return of dragons or be a dragon, is understandable, but I still can't avoid the feeling that in some cases that desire goes beyond obsession to become an end in itself and a feeling that they are not "complete" without the dragon connection.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

33 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Depends. I don't see drinking wildfire as being connected with prophecy as such, but it does appear to be coming from a desperate need for dragonkind.

GRRM has been deliberately vague about the Prince that Was Promised and a connection to Azor Ahai. Its also worth looking though at the Dothraki prophecy, which seems to share something of a common theme. The Dothraki ride horses and expect their promised Prince to ride a stallion to victory over the world. Now if we take Maester Aemon's cry about getting the gender wrong it doesn't seem at all unreasonable to recognise Danaerys the Dragonlord not only as the Prince that was Promised but also recognise her rather than her lost son as the Stallion.

That's an argument in itself of course, but the point is [and this is very clear from Maester Aemon's cry] that the Prince needs a dragon and a Targaryen not possessed of a dragon cannot aspire to be recognised as the Prince. In that sense therefore doing some weird stuff to secure the return of dragons or be a dragon, is understandable, but I still can't avoid the feeling that in some cases that desire goes beyond obsession to become an end in itself and a feeling that they are not "complete" without the dragon connection.

 

And once again, the old "DwtP" conversation raises its ancient head.  Frankly, it's a connection that does a lot to explain this stuff - from a certain perspective - if we recall that "Prince" and "Dragon" are simply two differend translations of the same prophetic word.  And the Targs seem both to have forgotten this... and to recognize it implicitly, somehow. Recall that Aerion Targaryen drank wildfire, reportedly, because he believed he would transform into a dragon.  And Jaime Lannister reports that Mad Aerys didn't truly expect to die, after blowing King's Landing to ashes via wildfire.  As he tells Brienne:

Quote

Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him… that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.  (3.37, JAIME)

 

Aside from that connection, there is a good bit of language in these books to describe the internalizing of fire. Of both Dany (at Drogo's pyre) and Mel (at her hearth fire), we are told "the fire was in[side] her," and/or she "drank it in."  Which is not to say those are prophetic moments necessarily - though I imagine Dany's experience at Drogo's pyre was the fulfillment of something.  But GRRM still hasn't produced the prophecy in its entirety (the Dragon that was Promised prophecy), and it entertains me to imagine there might be some similar language in there like that.

Then, stepping back to imagine that various Targs over time have actually read (or heard) the prophecy themselves - and have thought it concerned them personally... well, it's not hard to imagine certain members of the family being overcome by visions of grandeur.  Aerion, Aerys... Aegon the Unlikely, trying to hatch his eggs at Summerhall... Aegon III, building wooden dragons for some bizarre reason.  Possibly even the Conquest itself, and (before that) the decision to settle at Dragonstone, were decisions taken on the basis of some prophetic relevance.  

(E.g., "The dragon has three heads" might have been taken as a signal leading to the Conquest; and the "place of salt and smoke," as we know, has been mistakenly identified as Dragonstone by others in our story.)

[Sly Wren]

On April 27, 2016 at 7:33 AM, Armstark said:

That the Targaryens keep the dragon-skulls suggest that the dragons are the dominant partner in their relationship.

Or that they see the dragons as dominant? Whether they are or not?

The Targaryen obsession with dragons gets them into a LOT of trouble. And when they don't have the dragons, they use wildfire, which also can cause a LOT of trouble. The holding on to dead relics/skulls of their power. . .could potentially be symbolic of where Targs go wrong: if they focus on the dragons and the power they hold, they often get themselves dead. 

[Black Crow]

22 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Or that they see the dragons as dominant? Whether they are or not?

The Targaryen obsession with dragons gets them into a LOT of trouble. And when they don't have the dragons, they use wildfire, which also can cause a LOT of trouble. The holding on to dead relics/skulls of their power. . .could potentially be symbolic of where Targs go wrong: if they focus on the dragons and the power they hold, they often get themselves dead. 

Anent those skulls, its possible that there is still some residual power in there. Remember the importance attached to bones up North and that business of the wight still moving until the direwolf cracked its bones and it remembered it was dead. Is there/was there something surviving in those dragon bones, perhaps reaching out to the Targaryens and feeding their obsession with dragonkind?

[Matthew.]

At the risk of more mundane interpretation, I don't think there's any supernatural element necessary for the Targs to be obsessed with dragons; there's no supernatural element necessary for anyone to be obsessed with dragons. We've already seen this in Qarth, and with Euron and the various other figures headed toward Dany in Quaithe's "The Glass Candles are Burning" prophecy: everyone wants to exploit the potential that the dragons represent.

There is an extra layer of obsession with the Targs themselves, since the dragon was the means by which they conquered and held a continent, and some - like Aegon V - desired their return to strengthen the position of the Crown. I do agree, however, with the premise that many of the more "mad" Targs were driven by something they'd read in prophecy, or perhaps the works of Septon Barth---even mentally stable Targaryens, like Maester Aemon, seemed to be true believers in TPTWP, as well as the notion that it's possible to bring back the dragons.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

At the risk of more mundane interpretation, I don't think there's any supernatural element necessary for the Targs to be obsessed with dragons

An eminently reasonable position, if I do say so myself.  Can the same be said of fans, in the real world? What elements are necessary to explain ASOIAF-readers' obsession with Targs?  

 

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

There is an extra layer of obsession with the Targs themselves, since the dragon was the means by which they conquered and held a continent... I do agree, however, with the premise that many of the more "mad" Targs were driven by something they'd read in prophecy

For House Targaryen, I'd say the issue goes a bit farther than mere obsession.  In fact, it becomes a question of identity.  And often enough, identity confusion.  Adding to the examples listed above, we might toss Dany's brother Viserys into the mix as a Targ whose delusions of grandeur centered on a peculiarly draconic, and mistaken, self-image. And even rational members of the family appear to succumb. Dany herself, for instance.  Or Aegon V - who we know began as a relatively level-headed Targ - back when he toured the continent as Ser Duncan's squire. Yet in his old age, even he was playing with very large matches at the family estate - desperately attempting to hatch those eggs.  

Pretty sure prophecy plays some role.  That said, Maester Aemon himself alludes to the destructive power of the dragon dreams, in his pre-death musings. And given that we've seen the effect such dreams had on Dany, - way back in book 1 - it's probably worth taking Aemon's commentary into consideration.  

 

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

even mentally stable Targaryens, like Maester Aemon, seemed to be true believers in TPTWP, as well as the notion that it's possible to bring back the dragons.

And not only do we know that the prophecy has been around for a long, long time. But we also know that Targs themselves have had this dream, specifically.  The two things go together.  Recall this comment by Egg, from early in Mystery Knight:

Quote

Egg lowered his voice. "Someday the dragons will return. My brother Daeron's dreamed of it, and King Aerys read it in a prophecy. Maybe it will be my egg that hatches. That would be splendid."

 

 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

5 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

And not only do we know that the prophecy has been around for a long, long time. But we also know that Targs themselves have had this dream, specifically.  The two things go together.  Recall this comment by Egg, from early in Mystery Knight:

Quote

Egg lowered his voice. "Someday the dragons will return. My brother Daeron's dreamed of it, and King Aerys read it in a prophecy. Maybe it will be my egg that hatches. That would be splendid."

 

Seems likely that this dream/prophecy combination is the same one mentioned by Aemon before he dies:

Quote

 

“The archmaesters. You must make them understand. The men who were at the Citadel when I was have been dead for fifty years. These others never knew me. My letters… in Oldtown, they must have read like the ravings of an old man whose wits had fled. You must convince them, where I could not. Tell them, Sam… tell them how it is upon the Wall… the wights and the white walkers, the creeping cold…

"Tell them. The prophecy… my brother's dream… Lady Melisandre has misread the signs. Stannis. Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it… their father's mother… she used to call me Uncle Maester when she was a little girl. I remembered that, so I allowed myself to hope… perhaps I wanted to… we all deceive ourselves, when we want to believe. Melisandre most of all, I think. The sword is wrong, she has to know that… light without heat… an empty glamor… the sword is wrong, and the false light can only lead us deeper into darkness, Sam. Daenerys is our hope. Tell them that, at the Citadel. Make them listen. They must send her a maester. Daenerys must be counseled, taught, protected. For all these years I've lingered, waiting, watching, and now that the day has dawned I am too old. I am dying, Sam."  (4.35, SAMWELL)

 

 

[Black Crow]

Yes, I think that whether the dragon-skulls are the cause or just the symptom there is what can only be described as an unhealthy obsession with dragons. 

And in this I think its worth making the point that while there's a popular presumption out there among many readers that the prophesy is about a hero who will defeat the Others and Maester Aemon appears to see a connection. The dragons themselves are what most Targaryens were obsessed with. Whether the Others came into it all we don't know, but other than Maester Aemon, no-one mentions the dragons as a possible counter to a threat. All the Targaryens seem to want is to bring back the dragons and ultimately to be the dragons.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

18 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Whether the Others came into it all we don't know, but other than Maester Aemon, no-one mentions the dragons as a possible counter to a threat. All the Targaryens seem to want is to bring back the dragons and ultimately to be the dragons.

 

I certainly agree with that last comment.  I'd just make the small suggestion that, given our pool of characters, Maester Aemon seems by far the most learned and reliable, in terms of what he might actually know.  So if Aemon suggests the dragon(s) have some role to play in connection with the Others... I'd be inclined to give his opinion some weight.  

It's notable, I think, that before he dies he dreams of the shadow of dragon wings "on the snow," and identifies Dany both as the dragon that was promised, and as "our hope."  

 

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

GRRM has been deliberately vague about the Prince that Was Promised and a connection to Azor Ahai. Its also worth looking though at the Dothraki prophecy, which seems to share something of a common theme.

 

This has been an area of particular interest for me, lately.  In fact, I have a half-theory that the Dothraki themselves are descended of refugees from Asshai. This would explain several things that otherwise puzzle me - correlated prophecies, among others.  There is even a suggestion, in the text, that this PtwP prophecy may have been a Dothraki prophecy, in the first place. Or, if it originally comes through Asshai... that the Dothraki language inherited a version of it.  

 

 

[Black Crow]

36 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

 

I certainly agree with that last comment.  I'd just make the small suggestion that, given our pool of characters, Maester Aemon seems by far the most learned and reliable, in terms of what he might actually know.  So if Aemon suggests the dragon(s) have some role to play in connection with the Others... I'd be inclined to give his opinion some weight.  

It's notable, I think, that before he dies he dreams of the shadow of dragon wings "on the snow," and identifies Dany both as the dragon that was promised, and as "our hope."  

I think that there is a problem [in text] with a lack of definition. Mel for example sees the Azor Ahai prophecy in terms of a time of great darkness rather than specifically the blue-eyed boys from the north. Even when alerted to the Wall and what's up there I think she sees what's happening as harbinger of the struggle to come, rather than a specific threat. The same I think may be true of the Targaryen perception of the prophecy. They want to be dragons and rule the world, not save it from the other lot [whoever they are] and then retire to a cottage with a vote of thanks from Parliament and a few shillings from the Poor Box. The battle will be glorious. Maester Aemon, latterly at least, may have viewed it more soberly but the Targaryens want to be conquering dragons not knight errants.

[Arry'sFleas]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

a Targaryen .... a feeling that they are not "complete" without the dragon connection.

a very similar situation to Jon when separated from Ghost:

Jon wondered where Ghost was now. Had he gone to Castle Black, or was he was running with some wolfpack in the woods? He had no sense of the direwolf, not even in his dreams. It made him feel as if part of himself had been cut off.

 

Isn't it a case of the hereditary skinchanger -Targ in your discussion- needing his familiar?