Anyone else wish Penny didn't exist?

[zandru]

Selaesori Qhoran

Just a note in passing, but this ship's name translates as "perfumed seneschal", as in "Beware the..."

The Selaesori Qhoran bore Tyrion (and Penny), Ser Jorah, and Moquoro the red priest who later hooks up with Victarion Greyjoy. All potential concerns for Daenerys.

[Criston of House Shapper]

I hope Penny dies a really cruel death, she's so annoying.

[Walda]

Maybe when she does die, it will be in a way that enables Tyrion to escape death, disguised as a woman.

Of course, given the direful rejected 80's rom-com lines and scenarios that made Penny so annoying, there is a good chance that Tyrion wandering Slavers Bay dressed as a woman will be more annoying than The Birdcage meets Mrs Doubtfire in Big Momma's House.

[Lord Asher Forrester]

On 18/04/2016 at 0:41 PM, Sigella said:

My interpretation of her is that she's set up as the cliché of a moral guide: only there to help Tyrion come to terms with his shortcomings. By learning to love, or at least care for, Penny he'll learn to love, or care for, himself better and blah blah blah. I really hope GRRM has a really nice twist to this coming up... because as is its not great.

Tyrion and Penny makes me think of "The Dwarf" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dwarf_(Lagerkvist_novel) ) and I'm so hoping for a scene that surpasses "the evil dwarf mock satanic ritual" scene in kickassery. 

It is obvious that when he finally will get used to her she'll die, probbably by dragonfire or murdered by Mereen nobles. Not that i'm a saddist I usualy like these good alligned characters, but she is so annoying that i'll bee happy if she dies. It's the whole Sansa's "dream world" bullshit  all over again right when we just get rid of this aspect of Sanssa.

[NorthGirl]

I thoroughly dislike her but she is essential to Tyrion's mental head removal from sphincter surgery so... No I don't wish she didn't exist.

[Sigella]

2 hours ago, Lord Asher Forrester said:

It is obvious that when he finally will get used to her she'll die, probbably by dragonfire or murdered by Mereen nobles. Not that i'm a saddist I usualy like these good alligned characters, but she is so annoying that i'll bee happy if she dies. It's the whole Sansa's "dream world" bullshit  all over again right when we just get rid of this aspect of Sanssa.

Oh, but I'm hoping for a really nice twist. Something dark preferably. I don't wanna say I don't want her to exist, but if there isn't a nice twist coming her way I kind of do.

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 4/18/2016 at 6:16 PM, Seams said:

I just had an omg moment. So glad this thread reopened the Penny topic, because I had spent quite a lot of time trying to sort out her purpose a couple or three months ago, and I couldn't quite figure her out.

Here is the money quote that I thought might indicate that Penny has a couple of elephants waiting for her at home:

... “It was Father’s idea to do the tilts. He even trained the first pig, but by then he was too sick to ride her, so Oppo took his place. I always rode the dog. We performed for the Sealord of Braavos once, and he laughed so hard that afterward he gave each of us a … a grand gift.” [ADwD]

As with many conversations between Tyrion and Penny, he changes the subject or finishes her thought for her without waiting to hear what she might have to say.

My omg thought here is the the Sealord of Braavos might have given Penny and her brother dragon eggs. Other little hints add up to this: in a nearby chapter, Prince Doran Martell casually mentions that it would be relatively easy to hide a young dragon on a cog. Tyrion and Penny are passengers on a cog. Moqorro talks about young dragons and old: he's not talking about Aerys or Rhaegar and Danaerys; he's talking about Dany's dragons being old and Penny's dragons being young. (I assume they aren't hatched yet?) When they play cyvasse, Penny tries to make the elephants "fly," and Tyrion has to remind her that only dragons fly. With his expertise on dragons, Tyrion will be able to teach Penny how to ride her dragon and how to care for it.

When Tyrion arrives in Essos, he is hidden in a wine barrel. I've always assumed, when he emerges from the barrel, this symbolic rebirth is a hatching: Tyrion is like a dragon emerging from an egg. But it puzzled me that the cracking of the hull of the Selasori Qhoran as the storm ends is also like the cracking of an egg. If there are two dragon eggs, that would explain why there are two "hatchings" in Tyrion's arc - the second one is Penny.

 

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I was also thinking that the resolution involving a troupe of mummer dwarfs enlisted to help Bloodraven in the Dunk & Egg story is further support for this theory. I don't want to give away too much, but there is a connection between the dragon's egg and the dwarf in that story, which might be a hint for us here.

 

What do you want to bet that Tyrion names his dragon Brightroar?

Another thought: Qyburn is making a headless super-champion for Cersei, using the body of Gregor Clegane. Penny's brother, Oppo or Groat, has been beheaded but Tyrion soon puts on his armor and helmet. I don't know if a David and Goliath showdown is in the works, or if the headless knight scenario will remain a symbolic parallel between the two story lines. I do think there's a deliberate juxtaposition of similar elements here, though.

I'm not buying it, but is interesting. By the way, I don't think you need to use spoiler tags for Dunk and Egg material, just Winds. 

[bloodofthedragon1995]

On 18 April 2016 at 5:48 AM, Abdallah said:

Is it just me or is Penny the worst and most boring character in the books? I don't care about her pig, or her dog, or the stupid tilting. FFS Tyrion was hand of the king and a lion at the blackwater. Now he's being a mummers farce. Penny is scared of normal sized people. She brings no value to the books. And I really hate the entire dwarfs should date other dwarfs thing that is being implied. Seriously GRRM just have the poor girl die of the pale mare in TWOW. 

[Seams]

19 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I'm not buying it, but is interesting. By the way, I don't think you need to use spoiler tags for Dunk and Egg material, just Winds. 

So what do you think the two grand gifts are, if they're not dragon eggs? GRRM did something very clever (as usual) burying Penny's reference to these two gifts just before she told Tyrion that it was Littlefinger's henchman who had hired them to perform at Joffrey's wedding feast, completely distracting the reader so we would forget about the two gifts. Generally, gifts in ASOIAF are something meaningful - The House of Black and White's gifts are quite decisive in the lives of the recipients.

I used the spoiler tag for the Dunk & Egg reference because the plot point I discussed would ruin the story for anyone who hadn't read it. Maybe I'll go back to edit so my reason for the spoiler tag is clearer. Thanks.

[apovsic]

Woah, I never imagine that Penny is so unpopular. Also that there are so many cruel people here ("she's annoying, hope she dies in a gruesome way").

[Elisabetta Duò]

On 18 aprile 2016 at 6:48 AM, Abdallah said:

Is it just me or is Penny the worst and most boring character in the books? I don't care about her pig, or her dog, or the stupid tilting. FFS Tyrion was hand of the king and a lion at the blackwater. Now he's being a mummers farce. Penny is scared of normal sized people. She brings no value to the books. And I really hate the entire dwarfs should date other dwarfs thing that is being implied. Seriously GRRM just have the poor girl die of the pale mare in TWOW. 

I kinda agree with the OP but trying to understand her place in the narrative, as somebody already said here, she has no inherent value by herself but only in relation to Tyrion. Imo:

- she is there to make us witness his struggle... a man who is struggling with himself, with women and with his condition without the only thing which had kept him safe (his name and wealth).

- she is there so that he could live her lifestyle, experience which proves to be terrible and useful to him at the same time.

She's there to show us a part of Tyrion's path, he is a 99.99% destroyed man when he meets her and that's why he behaves in some ways with her, which many people apparently fail to grasp and reduce it all to 'he is an hypocrital'... it's a little bit more complex than that, as anything in GRRM's world...

People go like 'see? he treats vulnerable people well only if they are beautiful and rich, while he treats Penny badly' but the comparison is wrong... besides the fact he didn't always treat her badly, you can't compare how a man behaved when he was present to himself and how he behaves when he is 99.99% out of his mind and totally messed up after the greatest tragedy of his life.

It would be like comparing a person's behavior when he's fine and true to himself to his behavior when he's depressed or after he suffered a terrible loss. Grief and depression don't make the wrong become right, but you can't fully hold against an ill man his illness and most of all you can't know if he would behave the same way, weren't he gravely depressed. 

To know how Tyrion (and not depressed-out-of-his-mind-kinda-suicidal-Tyrion) would deal with a poor ugly dwarf, we should have been given the chance to see him dealing with her when he was still in a decent psychological condition. We weren't given this chance so we don't know how he would behave. We don't have a proper term of comparison, we only know that he had decent thoughts for the dwarfs who were at Jeoffrey's marriage feast. 

In the first books, we have seen him strike 99% of times only 'in defence', like he reacts badly when someone treats him badly makes threats or doesn't show him respect... after the murders, with his mind messed up, he dangerously started to generalize .. some women wronged him and he behaved as if all women wronged him, etc.; he has lost the only people he thought might care for him (Tysha first, then Shae betrayed him, his father and sister were their usual selves, Sansa was gone before they had a raeal chance to know each other and - most important - Jamie, the ONLY one he really thought loved him, betrayed him as well, he lied to Tyrion about the most important thing in his life) and he killed what in his mind was his lover (not in her mind) and a father whose approval and love he craved all his life (even if, I think it's possible a killed 'dead man walking, for there's a chance that Oberyn poisoned Twiyn before he shot him), therefore he is at that point in his life where he doesn't care about his life - or other people's lives - anymore. He's 99.99% done and he is done with trying his best to receive nothing but disdain, done with justice and ideals.

His mind was not in the right place - he didn't even think straight which tells us a lot about how messed up he was, he's just starting to come out of that - and he is still not himself ... people do a lot of bad stuff and mistakes during any kind of recovery process and/or when they are trying to elaborate their grief -  the deeper the wound, the greater the mistakes - and he is no different from any other human being. 

Penny is, at the same time:

- the mirror image of what he is (a dwarf, an ugly human being) and he hates being reminded of that, when he is unkind he doesn't treat her badly because he's bothered by her being a dwarf or by her being ugly, he hates to view himself in her, he hates to see himself from the outside because he has to face who he is, it's himself he hates, not her. 

- the image of what he might have been without the Lannister's gold.. he would have been obliged to put up with some of that sh** before he could get rid of it thanks to his wit;

- the one who makes him realize what he wouldn't have been in any case: he is more clever, resorceful and brave than she is, he would be even if he didn't have any money and even if he weren't as cultured as he is. If he were born not a Lannister, he would have walked his way to relative wealth exactly as Lord Varys did starting from scratch, because they're both clever, observant and witty; she at the contrary, couldn't do any of that;

- instrumental to his recovery process (he does try to confort and protect her at times) and a means of personal growth (in many ways, like helping him to come to terms with his shortcomings or offering different point of views).

This experience will make him stronger, he will rebuild himself but that takes time, in real life as in fiction. He will decide to live - at least to seek revenge against the ones who wronged him, hopefully also to achieve some bigger and better goal - but it doesn't happen with a snap of fingers, it will take time.

That said I agree withthe OP that she is really annoying. I don't like reading about her and I'm not much symphatetic with passive characters; even if she is a little bit better than she appeared to be at the beginning, she's still annoying to me. I think she has already proven useful enough, I hope he definitely moves on now.

[Melisandre's White Pubes]

Hmm, may have dragon eggs, has experience riding a carnivore…we may have another dragon rider in Penny!

[Lost Melnibonean]

On 5/12/2016 at 7:54 AM, Seams said:

So what do you think the two grand gifts are, if they're not dragon eggs? GRRM did something very clever (as usual) burying Penny's reference to these two gifts just before she told Tyrion that it was Littlefinger's henchman who had hired them to perform at Joffrey's wedding feast, completely distracting the reader so we would forget about the two gifts. Generally, gifts in ASOIAF are something meaningful - The House of Black and White's gifts are quite decisive in the lives of the recipients.

I used the spoiler tag for the Dunk & Egg reference because the plot point I discussed would ruin the story for anyone who hadn't read it. Maybe I'll go back to edit so my reason for the spoiler tag is clearer. Thanks.

The Dunk & Egg books have been published for over 6 months, so it's cool. I'm not sure what the grand gift was. Maybe you're on to something. 

[Seams]

50 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The Dunk & Egg books have been published for over 6 months, so it's cool. I'm not sure what the grand gift was. Maybe you're on to something. 

Hard to say for sure, but it also occurred to me: a grand gift - agg. Not exactly an egg, but close . . .

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 hours ago, Seams said:

Hard to say for sure, but it also occurred to me: a grand gift - agg. Not exactly an egg, but close . . .

[Hos the Hostage]

I care about her pig and her dog, and the idea of Jorah actually playing the bear in a Bear and Maiden Fair play was funny, but otherwise, I don't give a damn about Penny.

There were other ways to make Tyrion care about his own life.

[Walda]

Hmm. Just read an interview GRRM's editor did, from just before Dance was released

Quote

SS: Most fans have a favorite character they absolutely can’t wait to read. Who is that character for you and why?

    AG: Tyrion, without a doubt. And DANCE is rife with Tyrion going through some very dark times and some absolutely amazing adventures, so I was a very happy woman. The stuff with Penny alone…but I’ve said too much already. Why Tyrion? He just grabbed me right off. He is smart and funny and resourceful, and he has a dry, self-deprecating humor that gets me every time. He’s also a troubled character with some very real problems, and dreams that may never be realized, though you deeply hope they will.

Dance Interview: With George R. R. Martin Editor Anne Groell
By Shawn Speakman  July 8, 2011

Ok, so she is his editor, it is her job to get the book sold, the interview was on the Friday the week before it was released, but she is a very close, discerning reader, picking up the plot holes and cutting the fat is her job too. There are a number of places and people she could have mentioned in association with Tyrion if she just wanted to hype it up without spoiling  - Illyrio, the Shy Maid, the old man of the river, the Widow of the Waterfront (who grows more interesting every time I read her), Moqorro, Sweets, Nurse - and yet, she chose Penny,

Penny, the device that is used to show us what we already knew about Tyrion and his self-loathing, and his attitude towards women, and his attitude towards his family. The free woman who became a slave for no reason I can see but to give Tyrion someone to lord it over, even when he is a slave. Even odder, she left the protection of the Widow of the Waterfront, and, apparently voluntarily, became Jorah's chattel or at least his expense, at the request of Tyrion, who was a slave at the time.

Maybe there is more to her  - more than I can see, anyway.

[khal drogon]

Why? She is not half as annoying as Ygritte. I like her because Penny aids in Tyrion's character development almost as much as Shae or Tysha. I like her because she shows the life of a commoner. She shows how the games of the nobles hurts the commoners. I disagree that she adds nothing to the series. She shows the POV of a commoner which is very rare for this series. And I loved her because she brought out something more from Tyrion than the witty scheming dwarf he was.