Quentyn - Dead? Alive? Dragonrider?

[Ashur]

On 20/4/2016 at 1:05 AM, The Fresh PtwP said:

Quent was with Cletus when he died...

“Give your bride a kiss for me,” Cletus had whispered to him, just before he died".  -The Merchant's Man ADwD

Yep, that's it. Very hollywoodesque, isn't it? Not much believable, such a cheesy "last words". Besides, Quent never saw the corpses. I recall that the bodies were wrapped in hammocks.

[DigUpHerBones]

Quote

At the end of dance,  Quentyn's surviving crew is sent by Barristan to try to turn the Tattered Prince. 

you mean his brother

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

On 4/18/2016 at 1:59 PM, watcher of the night said:

"The Dragontamer" is the title of the chapter. I do not think that G.R.R.M is trolling us with titles.

What was he supposed to title it? "The Flame Eater"? "The Burnt Prince"?

[Light a wight tonight]

On 4/18/2016 at 10:02 AM, Maxxine said:

 

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Viserion is circling the battlefield. If he had a rider someone would  have seen him here. Even though it can be asked why Viserion decides to stay when Rhaegal just wanted to eat and then went about his business. Is it because Quentyn is making him stay?

Personally, I'm going with Quentyn is dead, though I'll concede there's a slim chance he is alive but I can't give him dragonrider. I'll freely admit that this is mostly based on my personal feelings about Quentyn. I don't like him because he has some of the dumbest plans in the book. Idk if he's stupid, naive, or both.

Just picking this one point our of your topic, it seems to me that the whole Martell family is a little slow-witted. Doran's plots include getting both his brother and his heir killed, Arianne's escapade with Myrcella blows up big time, Oberyn getting himself killed at what ought to have been his moment of victory, etc

[the trees have eyes]

On 18/04/2016 at 6:02 PM, Maxxine said:

 

Dead - We have Quentyn's POV and see him burning.He himself says "his hand . . . all of him was burning." Generally, you don't survive all of you burning. However, there's is the issue of dragonriders at least having some fire resistance. I know GRRM said Dany surviving the pyre in Games is not a normal occurrence and she is not fire immune, but it still seems obvious that she still has some resistance. Her hair was completely aflame in the fighting pit, which would generally lead to severe burns on your scalp and face. But in her chapter her burns are just not a big deal. I believe she talks about burns on her hands but they seem very minor considered her whole head was on fire. So maybe Quent was just on fire and not burning similar to Dany when she rode Drogon. His friends, who were there with him and would have seen it think he's dead . Yronwood is cradling the body and Drink is trying to defend it (I'll have more to say about them later). Later on in Barristan's chapter the first sentence is "the Dornish prince was three days dying." 

Alive - Quentyn was burned in way that made him unrecognizable, obviously leaving the door open for the person burned to not be Quentyn. His friends are also acting weird especially Yronwood. The way Yronwood acts during the conversation with Barristan is completely different from the way he acts every other time we see him. He's taking charge and behaves more intelligently than he does at any other point. Maybe this is the true him and the rest of the book was just an act or maybe the death of Quentyn  changed him. Drink is acting completely unreasonable in blaming Dany for his friend's dumbass plan to steal a dragon, but acting unreasonable after watching your friend burn to death so this may mean nothing. Except for the fact that Quentyn says early on that Drink never actually mourns the dead, but can play the part if need be. So maybe Drink's act is this or maybe just seeing his best friend brought out actual mourning. Plus, the way they tell the story seems like they're trying to figure out what story to tell, which is suspicious since they were there. Though this reaction could just be because they are distraught and don't really want to talk about it. The biggest issue with him being alive is who is the dead body? A lot of theories have been that Tattered Prince is the one who actually died. I don't know about this just because that means that Quent would have had to take TP's place. I really don't care how average looking they both are, Quentyn wouldn't be able to pull off the ploy because the sellswords in the Windblown still know what TP looks like and even if Quent and TP look similar (which I'm not sure they do), TP is much older so they're not going to be able switch and no one notice.

Dragonrider - If he's a dragonrider he would have to be alive, so take everything in the preceding paragraph and include it here. It could be argued that before Rhaegel set Quentyn afire, Viserion was listening to him. It's just vague enough of paragraph to leave the option open. Plus, he does have the "blood of the dragon" to at least give him the possibility to be able to ride a dragon even though that blood was from 3 or 4 generations ago. [edit] Also the name of his last chapter is The Dragontamer. GRRM has said the chapter names mean something. So either the chapter was named that because he ultimately became a dragon tamer or it was a troll. However, if he's alive and rode out of the pit on Viserion, I feel like someone would have saw him at some point. It's not Drogon carrying Dany miles away. Viserion is still in Meereen and from Tyrion's sample chapter

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Viserion is circling the battlefield. If he had a rider someone would  have seen him here. Even though it can be asked why Viserion decides to stay when Rhaegal just wanted to eat and then went about his business. Is it because Quentyn is making him stay?

 

Dead as mutton.  GRRM has told us clearly that Dany surviving the funeral pyre was a one-time thing tied into the larger act of magic and sacrifice that hatched the dragons.  The fact that her hands are burned from the pit doesn't show that she is fireproof, it shows exactly the opposite, but of course GRRM doesn't want to either kill or seriously injure or disfigure Dany so she is relatively unscathed.  Quentyn on the other hand is roasted to a cinder and the death is intended to show how dangerous the dragons are and what happens when you get it wrong and also highlight the real danger Dany was in facing Drogon in the pit until she faced him down and he submitted.  Could Quentyn have succeeded with Viserion?  Probably not imo but Rhaegal cooked his goose before we got to find out.

Alive?  Well you can play devil's advocate but the case is very weak.  Only the three Dornish enter the pit and we see Quentyn beginning to burn.  The behaviour of Arch and Drink afterwards is entirely understandable.   First they act differently to how they did before because their prince is dead and Arch in particular assumes an air of command because he is no longer playing second fiddle to anyone.  Second they are facing potential trial and execution for treason - attempting to steal a dragon and enabling both dragons to esape and cause a great deal of destruction in doing so is grounds for exeuction - so act somewhat cautiously with Barristan.  Third, their duty was to keep their prince alive and they have failed so are dealing with the ramifications of the failure of their mission, the shame they will feel for having let down Doran and Quentyn and the disgrace they will face for this.  They react differently because they have different personalities not becuase they are playing a fraud: Gerris out of frustration and anger puts the blame on Dany rather than Quentyn, Arch is more accepting of the position they are in and prepared to see if Baristan will offer them some way of redeeming themselves or escaping their plight.  There is no reason at all to think it's a conspiracy to hide the fact that Quentyn is somehow alive.

Dagonrider.  It's hard to see what title GRRM could have given that chapter without giving away what would happen.  If you really want to argue that the chapter heading is proof of what happens then I think that is way too deterministic and the heading is more thematic of what Quentyn is attempting in that chapter - suceess or failure unfolds for the reader as they turn the pages.  It's odd that we would be discussing whether he succeeded or not as if people didn't understand what they read.  They did really, they just don't want to accept it.  Also don't both Rhaegal and Viserion set up lairs in two of the larger pyramids so are accounted for and on the loose rather than being ridden by anyone?

On 18/04/2016 at 10:18 PM, watcher of the night said:

It is not that he needs to be brought back to life, he may not be dead on the first place.

1, Most living creature die in dragonfire within a split second, it is so hot. Yet Quentin had all the time to observe his whip burning then his hand, then his body burning. It is more likely that Rheagal was roasting someone nearby, Quentin was too close and his whip/clothes cought fire accidentaly. This hurts too, but it may not be lethal.

2, The body Barristan saw was unrecognizable.

3, Drink and Arch were clearly hiding something.

4, Also: second dance.

 

It's lethal.  Quentyn is fully on fire.  He is not fireproof or somehow immune to damage from fire.  He is dying a fairly hideous and protracted death.  He can die as quickly or as slowly as GRRM wants him to for dramatic effect.  GRRM is an artist not a scientist and how quickly dragonfire kills is entirely up to him (Kraznys in Astapor, the horse Drogon killed).  It's kind of pointless to argue as if dragonfire can be measured scientifically as that is not the point, the point is that GRRM uses it as a device to be worked into scenes the way he wants it.

Drink and Arch are keeping their mouths shut as much as possible so they can stay alive.  Arch is at any rate and is restraining the younger and more hotheaded Gerris who seems to be wallowing in self-pity as he feels his reputation is ruined afer allowing Quentyn's death and bitterly blaming Quentyn's rash actions and death on Dany, not a smart move given they are talking to Barristan.  Arch is smart enough to realise that Barristan wants something (and he of course does, he wants knights) and to avoid antagonising him while seeing if they have a way to redeem themselves.  What they are not hiding is that Quentyn is alive or that he stole a dragon.

On 19/04/2016 at 8:51 AM, ForTheNorth said:

 

They didn't seem that distraught. Sounded like a mummers show to me. Drink carried on like someone trying to sell a story then real grief and we know Drink has trouble showing emotion. 

Also why were Drink and Arch so concerned with pushing Quentyns affections for Dany? He's dead. 

Nothing adds up and Quentyns chapter isn't Martin's style to end abruptly with no resolution. Nor does it make sense Martin spent so much time describing how average and unassuming Quentyn is, and how devious and calculating Doran is.

 

Drink is bitter and angry and is trying to come to terms with the fact that he is in prison for treason and has failed his prince.  Likely he thought he would come out of this a hero and win glory and fame not disgrace.  He is trying to justify Quentyn's actions as well as his own.

Why spend all that time building up Renly and his inevitable victory over Stannis only to have him die?  Or have Robb achieve victory after victory on the battlefield only to be murdered at a feast?  It's GRRM's style to be unpredictable and to set something up and then pull the rug from under the reader's feet.  Though I do think the point of Quentyn's failure was the destruction of the trope of the adventurer prince and to show the gritty reality of failures as GRRM so often does (Jeor Mormont on the Fist of the First Men and at Craster's, Robb, Renly, Stannis on the Blackwater) while setting Dany and Dorne up as enemies rather than allies. 

Doran's elaborate plans all end in failure incidentally and have cost him his brother and his son and I wouldn't bet on many of the sand snakes surviving their quest for revenge either.  Doran will likely die embittered with his house and family in ruins ratherr than achieving the revenge he has fixated on for 15 years.

On 19/04/2016 at 5:06 PM, watcher of the night said:

Drogon set that horse aflame while flying, form a larger distance and it may not have been direct hit. Also the horse is much larger than Quenstin, at least 10 times the size. The boar died on the spot, lambs die on the spot, the windblown head poped and bronze melted by the fire of Vyserion: there is no way Quentin survives a direct hit.

Had he been engulfed by dragonfire he would have died on the spot.

Dozens of people heard someone screaming, there is absolutely no proof that it was Quentin.

Arch and Drink are the only witness and they clearly hide something.

Exactly.

There is no science to dragonfire.  It's what GRRM wants for the particualr scene.  The horse did not die immediately and nor did Quentyn.  Quentyn was as good as dead almost immediately but clung to life for several days as people with very widespread third degree burns can do.

They don't realy hide anything though.  How would Quentyn have been smuggled out given he and Drink were alone and were captured and the whole pyramid would have been on high alert after two angry dragons stormed out.  Arch is cautious to see if Barristan will give them a way out which he does in fact appear to do.

On 19/04/2016 at 8:16 PM, GyantSpyder said:

One possibility is that Quentyn is dead, but that the dragon didn't kill him, Archibald and Drink did. They might have been sent with orders to prevent Quentyn from coming home alive, since the Yronwoods are a rival house to the Martells and not part of their inner circle. It's possible Quentyn, though badly burned, successfully tamed Rhaegal, and, seeing that, Drink pulled his sword and murdered him. and Arch was quick-thinking and covered it up.

They could not have permitted anyone to find Quentyn's body, because it would show he was stabbed, not eaten by a dragon. So they swapped out his body for somebody else (maybe the tattered prince?), who was obviously burned to death.

And that would mean Quentyn was a dragontamer for a brief moment, but now his body is just shattered unrecognizable bone fragments.

Then their talking up his character would be an (unnecessary) attempt to deflect suspicion from themselves. Unnecessary because the whole point of the misdirection is that Barristan Selmy isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he is and is charging headlong into a huge disaster.

It's also the kind of theory that never has to be proven or even returned to later in the story. Maybe nobody ever really knows the truth.

One reason I like the idea that Quentyn survived is that his chapter ends with him reciting Rhaegal's name in his head, and then screaming something. We don't hear what he screams. Brienne also ends her final chapter in A Feast for Crows screaming something on pain of death, and we have every reason to believe she screamed something that saved her life. So if Quentyn screamed "RHAEGAL!" or some other command, that would be a cool parallel.

But there's no way of knowing at this point.

If the Ironwoods were looking to to kill Quentyn and both Arch and Drink had orders to do so one has to wonder why the ultra cautious Doran Martell handpicked them to gaurd his son.  Yeah, no, I can't see that line of thinking has any merit. It's not like they had another body on hand to swap with his and presumably if they had time and licence to do this they might have given some thought to their own escape.

On 28/05/2016 at 3:24 AM, kimim said:

This is fitting.

 

Pretty much this

[Maxxine]

9 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

What was he supposed to title it? "The Flame Eater"? "The Burnt Prince"?

Well he could've just named it Quentyn. Completely off topic but I hate the whole nickname thing that comes about in Feast & Dance. It makes sense for Arya & Sansa but for everyone else it's extra and unnecessary IMO. It especially sucked the first time you read them bc he brings in all those new characters with nickname chapters and takes a few pages before you figure out who the hell the pov is. (Sorry complete tangent lol)

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

Just now, Maxxine said:

Well he could've just named it Quentyn. Completely off topic but I hate the whole nickname thing that comes about in Feast & Dance. It makes sense for Arya & Sansa but for everyone else it's extra and unnecessary IMO. It especially sucked the first time you read them bc he brings in all those new characters with nickname chapters and takes a few pages before you figure out who the hell the pov is. (Sorry complete tangent lol)

Same here. My first read I had to keep going back to my highlight to remember who the F im reading about. It was so frustrating!

Sorry OP. No more tangents.

[Goldhands]

7 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Same here. My first read I had to keep going back to my highlight to remember who the F im reading about. It was so frustrating!

Sorry OP. No more tangents.

I agree, it's a bit unnecessary with characters like Asha, Aeron, Victarion, Arianne, Areo or Barry. It makes sense with JonCon, Theon, Sansa and Arya, though.

[Maxxine]

8 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Same here. My first read I had to keep going back to my highlight to remember who the F im reading about. It was so frustrating!

Sorry OP. No more tangents.

I started the OP & this tangent.  Lol! It's fine

1 hour ago, Goldhands said:

I agree, it's a bit unnecessary with characters like Asha, Aeron, Victarion, Arianne, Areo or Barry. It makes sense with JonCon, Theon, Sansa and Arya, though.

Yeah I forgot Theon. Makes sense for him too.

[ThePrinceThatKnewNothing]

Hard to say but I don't see his use. I feel like Dorne would join Dany anyway without a marriage. Quentyn was kind of delusional he thought by turning up with a contract (that doesn't include either of them) that she would fall in love with him. Victarion thinks just by turning up he will win her love. They think she's just some girl who will fall for some lord/prince. They forget she is a Queen, she isn't any girl, even though I believe her love for Daario is just a teen crush sort of thing. But this book very much has women being power players, Dany, Cersei, Sansa, Margaery, Arya, Val and the men don't even know what they're in for with these women, they're not just the typical maidens we here about throughout the books.

 

[Equilibrium]

I hope he is dead, I hate everyone springing back from what we perceive as death, it is getting old and boring.

On the other hand he has Targ blood and far more importantly his mother is noble from Norvos, and they are of Valyrian descent and pretty pure blood. Quentyn doesn't have the olive skin of his siblings so he is probably more like his mother. He can plausibly be dragonrider. 

[the trees have eyes]

19 hours ago, ThePrinceThatKnewNothing said:

Hard to say but I don't see his use. I feel like Dorne would join Dany anyway without a marriage. Quentyn was kind of delusional he thought by turning up with a contract (that doesn't include either of them) that she would fall in love with him. Victarion thinks just by turning up he will win her love. They think she's just some girl who will fall for some lord/prince. They forget she is a Queen, she isn't any girl, even though I believe her love for Daario is just a teen crush sort of thing. But this book very much has women being power players, Dany, Cersei, Sansa, Margaery, Arya, Val and the men don't even know what they're in for with these women, they're not just the typical maidens we here about throughout the books.

 

Quentyn wan't delusional to be fair.  He was sent on a mission by his father so is doing his duty and, Doran being ultra secretive and often his own worst enemy, Quentyn has almost no guards / retinue / way of making the impression that he should be setting: that of a powerful, wealthy and influential prince, suitable as both an ally and a consort.  So he makes the best he can of a bad situation and clearly it's nowhere near enough.  Sure Doran & co underetimate Dany as they know practically nothing about her, including the fact that she has dragons, but Doran sets Quentyn up to fail here.

I do think that attempting to steal a dragon was in equal parts an act of desparation and stupidity that comes pretty close to delusional.

[Maxxine]

On October 27, 2016 at 3:19 PM, ThePrinceThatKnewNothing said:

Hard to say but I don't see his use. I feel like Dorne would join Dany anyway without a marriage. Quentyn was kind of delusional he thought by turning up with a contract (that doesn't include either of them) that she would fall in love with him. Victarion thinks just by turning up he will win her love. They think she's just some girl who will fall for some lord/prince. They forget she is a Queen, she isn't any girl, even though I believe her love for Daario is just a teen crush sort of thing. But this book very much has women being power players, Dany, Cersei, Sansa, Margaery, Arya, Val and the men don't even know what they're in for with these women, they're not just the typical maidens we here about throughout the books.

 

You pretty much mimicked my exact thoughts on everything!!! The part apart Quent & Victarion (& Euron) is soooo annoying to me. I think it's the craziest thing that these men think they're just going show up & she's just going marry them just because they're there. And then have the nerve (in quent's case) to act all hurt when she says no.It doesn't make sense. She doesn't even have a father (or brother) that can force her marry. She's a queen in her own right. Quentyn is even worse bc he doesn't even come with anything to offer. Just a piece of paper and the promise of soilders if they make it to Dorne. And Aegon and the same thought!! Just happy Tyrion changed his mind.

Completely agree about Daario. It's in regard to him where she truly acts like a stupid teenaged girl. It's that "I want a bad boy" phase almost every girl goes through. it's nowhere near like the feelings she had for Drogo

[ThePrinceThatKnewNothing]

2 hours ago, Maxxine said:

You pretty much mimicked my exact thoughts on everything!!! The part apart Quent & Victarion (& Euron) is soooo annoying to me. I think it's the craziest thing that these men think they're just going show up & she's just going marry them just because they're there. And then have the nerve (in quent's case) to act all hurt when she says no.It doesn't make sense. She doesn't even have a father (or brother) that can force her marry. She's a queen in her own right. Quentyn is even worse bc he doesn't even come with anything to offer. Just a piece of paper and the promise of soilders if they make it to Dorne. And Aegon and the same thought!! Just happy Tyrion changed his mind.

Completely agree about Daario. It's in regard to him where she truly acts like a stupid teenaged girl. It's that "I want a bad boy" phase almost every girl goes through. it's nowhere near like the feelings she had for Drogo

You're spot on! It's as though simply turning up will win her heart. I know Dany gets a lot of hate on here but she's a Queen, a Khaleesi, she brought dragons back into the world, she freed thousands upon thousands of slaves and these men think they can just turn up and win her over? They're nothing to her, one is just a prince of Dorne and one is just a lord of the iron islands...

It's funny because her one true love will probably be the person who doesn't care about winning her heart. And he is her mirror. He's The rightful king of the seven kingdoms, probably going to be king in the north, blood of the Wolf and dragon, has been battling the Others while saving thousands upon thousands of wildlings. I know people don't want her and Jon to fall in love but I think it'll happen. There's too many parallels between them for them not to be drawn to each other.