Future of House Westerling and House Spicer

[Nevets]

Double

[Nevets]

35 minutes ago, Raisin' Bran said:

Was pun intended here?

But if the prologue is the convoy arriving at CR, then who is going to be POV/die?

I think the POV will be the master, or maybe whoever is in charge (I think Damion is castellan). It gives a chance to look at how the Lannisters are dealing with Cersei's problems and Jaime's disappearance, as well as get us an update on events in the region and a look at CR.

I realized the pun as I was writing it and decided to leave it in. 

[Scorpion92]

5 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

How? I mean Jeyne was no where near the Twins how she could be accused?

Her absence at the Twins and her mother Sybell participating in the plots with Lannisters is exactly what could trigger Lady Stoneheart to think Jeyne was somehow connected to Red Wedding.

And as others said above, Lady Stoneheart is not exactly the most rationale and logical character in the series, she is driven by anger, loss and thirst for revenge, so in her books her daughter-in-law might be responsible for her son's death.

[The Fresh PtwP]

I think she gets preggo and tries to pass it off as the KiTN's son. IIRC Jaime and Spicer go over how that would be like the worst possible scenario...GRRM is fond of worst scenarios...

[chrisdaw]

1 minute ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

I think she gets preggo and tries to pass it off as the KiTN's son. IIRC Jaime and Spicer go over how that would be like the worst possible scenario...GRRM is fond of worst scenarios...

That is a good point. There's a heap of "we have to make sure X doesn't happen because Y!" And Y makes for the most entertaining possibility. So what's it look like if she gets pregnant I wonder.

[The Fresh PtwP]

53 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

That is a good point. There's a heap of "we have to make sure X doesn't happen because Y!" And Y makes for the most entertaining possibility. So what's it look like if she gets pregnant I wonder.

Every Lord of the Riverlands who has grudgingly given in to the IT has a new rallying call. Also good for whomever is marching south (Jon/Stannis) to gain extra support.

Aegon/Dorne might pick her up as a hostage and huge political key

If Roslin births a boy and Jeyne has a girl...baby-swap!

[Kaibaman]

As much as I like Jeyne, I afraid that when Lady Stoneheart gets a hold of her and her mother, they will both be done for. Lets face it, UnCat has no compunction when it comes to killing people who belong to a certain family regardless of whether they are innocent or not.

[Euron Lannister]

for sybelle, i hope she and jeyne will be captured by the BwB and prepared for execution.

sybelle will try to save her daughter and confess everything she has done, and jeyne hates her for this.

and then sybelle dies with the last thing she hears is her daughter hating her.

i don'T know where jeyne's story will go from hat point. maybe she will die aswell but saying something like "at least i'm together with robb soon."

On 19.4.2016 at 11:31 PM, norwaywolf123 said:

2. Do you belive the Jeyne swap theory?

it would be cool, but i don't really belive it

On 19.4.2016 at 11:31 PM, norwaywolf123 said:

Future of House Spicer

i kind of hope, rolph got a wife and fathered a child with her, before he dies. after all he was just following his liege lord and so his house should be able to keep castamere.

but after all i don't want him to survive ados

[Darth Sidious]

There's nobody right now who feels motivated enough to launch an attack to punish this house.  It's unrealistic to think every soul who supported the red wedding will get punished for it.  This house of limited means got dragged into this war between the lions and the wolves.  They saw the writing on the wall and chose to save themselves instead of perishing with the Starks.  It is a blight on their honor but it's better to survive so you can worry about honor later.  

[norwaywolf123]

On 5/8/2018 at 1:24 AM, Euron Lannister said:

i kind of hope, rolph got a wife and fathered a child with her, before he dies. after all he was just following his liege lord and so his house should be able to keep castamere.

I just think it is strange that Kevan was not given Castamere.

[Makk]

A fair amount of time passed since she left Riverrun and the dance epilogue. If the large lannister escort was attacked I think we would have heard about it in that epilogue.

LSH is very rational imo, she may not like Jeyne, but she has bigger fish to fry, those who actually willfully plotted against her family. The only reason she would be interested in Jeyne is if she was actually pregnant, and the story hasn't gone down that path. 

I do think Jeyne will try to gain vengeance for Robb. She genuinely loved him and will do whatever she can to hurt those responsible for his death, her first actions will probably target her mother. 

[Lollygag]

Tinfoil Time:

The Spicers and Reynes intermarried at some point. Even more tinfoil: Maggy the Frog is actually Ellyn Reyne whom the Lannister fool claimed was a sorceress. Ellyn's death is assumed, but not there’s actually nothing indisputable in the text confirming this like a body having been recovered. I’ve looked into births and dates on this, and nothing either proves nor excludes this.

There’s a Robb Reyne somewhere a while back in the Reyne history. There are only 3 Robbs in the ASOIAF universe: Robb Stark, Robb Rivers who is a Blackwood bastard. Perhaps Robb Reyne is a hint that Robb Stark married into the Reynes which makes his death occurring during the Rains of Castamere even more significant.

If Maggy is a Reyne, kin to the Reynes, or even Ellyn Reyne, she has an agenda against the Lannisters and Cersei which makes the Valonqar prophesy more complicated than it first appears. The Reyne sigil is a Red Lion to the Lannister Golden Lion. As the Red Lion is bannerman to the Golden Lion, it makes the Reynes a “little brother” to the Lannisters. The Reynes may be the Valonqar and the prophesy may also be a threat.

Castamere was given to Rolph Spicer. If he’s a Reyne, then Jaime gave Castamere back to the Reynes.

The Reynes and Spicer/Westerlings have a similar naming pattern.

Reynard Reyne / Reynald Westerling

Roger Reyne / Rolph Westerling

Cyrelle Reyne Tarbeck / Sybell Spicer

Rohanne Reyne Tarbeck / Rollam Westerling

Ellyn Reyne / Eleyna Westerling

 

[Pukisbaisals]

11 hours ago, Lollygag said:

Castamere was given to Rolph Spicer. If he’s a Reyne, then Jaime gave Castamere back to the Reynes.

 

The Reynes and Spicer/Westerlings have a similar naming pattern. 

 

Reynard Reyne / Reynald Westerling

 

Roger Reyne / Rolph Westerling

 

Cyrelle Reyne Tarbeck / Sybell Spicer

 

Rohanne Reyne Tarbeck / Rollam Westerling

 

Ellyn Reyne / Eleyna Westerling

That's interesting idea. Founder of House Spicer was merchant, elevated by Tytos Lannister. Reynes were destroyed about 7 years prior the death of Tytos, so House Spicer possibly could have been  founded after destruction of Reynes.

I have another idea who might be Elyn Reyne. I think she was a niece of Gerold Lannister (husband of Rohanne Webber), Cerelle Lannister, lawful lady of Casterly Rock. There were rumors about Gerold killing Cerelle, but what if he just disposed her and raised under other identity in the house of his loyal vassals.

When he had sons of his own, he tried to marry Cerelle back to his family. He betrothed her to her first cousin Tywald, who was younger than his bride at least by 2 years (and at most by 10). Later she married Tion, Tywald's twin brother. Marriage took place in 235,  Cerelle then had to be  26 years old, Tion - between 16 and 24. Later she tried seduce Tytos, who was 11 younger than her - that could explain why Tytos was so intimidated by his brother's widow.

From this point of view all Ellyn's actions look in very different light. She wasn't just power greedy bitch, she was struggling for her own birthright. It also could explain why Tytos was so forgiving to lady Tarbeck - he just knew her real story. Tywin Lannister, on the other hand, either didn't know this secret, o worse - knew and chose to eliminate rightful pretenders to Casterly Rock completely. Somehow I think Tywin was capable of that. He exterminated all inhabitants of Tarbeck Hall and Castamere because wanted to be sure, that no one will tell story of Cerelle Lannister.

Ellyn Reyne being  Cerelle Lannister doesn't exclude possibility of her reappearance as Maggy, but it's quite unlikely. If Tytos sympathized his cousin he could grant lordship to her new family, but it could only had happened in 7 years after destruction of Reynes, while Tytos was still alive.

So Elyn can't be wife of merchant Spicer and mother of the first lord Spicer. Either first lord Spicer has to be Tion Tarbeck, Elyn' son, or maybe at least one of her daughters escaped silent sisters and married first lord Spicer. But maybe Spicers came from her Reyne brothers (who weren't her real brothers if she was Lannister). Nothing is known about their marriages or children.

[Lollygag]

On 5/24/2018 at 9:16 AM, Pukisbaisals said:

That's interesting idea. Founder of House Spicer was merchant, elevated by Tytos Lannister. Reynes were destroyed about 7 years prior the death of Tytos, so House Spicer possibly could have been  founded after destruction of Reynes.

I have another idea who might be Elyn Reyne. I think she was a niece of Gerold Lannister (husband of Rohanne Webber), Cerelle Lannister, lawful lady of Casterly Rock. There were rumors about Gerold killing Cerelle, but what if he just disposed her and raised under other identity in the house of his loyal vassals.

When he had sons of his own, he tried to marry Cerelle back to his family. He betrothed her to her first cousin Tywald, who was younger than his bride at least by 2 years (and at most by 10). Later she married Tion, Tywald's twin brother. Marriage took place in 235,  Cerelle then had to be  26 years old, Tion - between 16 and 24. Later she tried seduce Tytos, who was 11 younger than her - that could explain why Tytos was so intimidated by his brother's widow.

From this point of view all Ellyn's actions look in very different light. She wasn't just power greedy bitch, she was struggling for her own birthright. It also could explain why Tytos was so forgiving to lady Tarbeck - he just knew her real story. Tywin Lannister, on the other hand, either didn't know this secret, o worse - knew and chose to eliminate rightful pretenders to Casterly Rock completely. Somehow I think Tywin was capable of that. He exterminated all inhabitants of Tarbeck Hall and Castamere because wanted to be sure, that no one will tell story of Cerelle Lannister.

Ellyn Reyne being  Cerelle Lannister doesn't exclude possibility of her reappearance as Maggy, but it's quite unlikely. If Tytos sympathized his cousin he could grant lordship to her new family, but it could only had happened in 7 years after destruction of Reynes, while Tytos was still alive.

So Elyn can't be wife of merchant Spicer and mother of the first lord Spicer. Either first lord Spicer has to be Tion Tarbeck, Elyn' son, or maybe at least one of her daughters escaped silent sisters and married first lord Spicer. But maybe Spicers came from her Reyne brothers (who weren't her real brothers if she was Lannister). Nothing is known about their marriages or children.

You've brought to my attention how often Rohanne and Cerelle are connected in the text. I’m not that familiar with Rohanne, but perhaps there’s things implied about Rohanne which might be hints about Cerelle. I agree that Tywin was capable of killing his own family as I think he was directly involved in Joff’s assassination and we know for certain that he's tried to kill Tyrion at least twice.

I’ve noticed that Cersei is a parallel for Ellyn in story, so I think we can find out something about Ellyn by looking at Cersei. Actually, for the longest time I thought this was a picture of Cersei (check out that odd placement of the candle flame!) but it’s really Ellyn. Ok, it looks just like Sookie Stackhouse, but whatever.

I’m not sure we can read much into any sympathy Tytos might have granted anyone. He was as weak-willed and genial as Tywin was not to the extent that it was a major part of why Tywin ended up the way he did. Another thing I'd consider is that Ellyn had her brothers wrapped around her finger to the extent it seems like she was one who truly ruled House Reyne which would be interesting if she wasn't truly their sister.

I’ll definitely have this in mind on re-reads to see if there are any hints/parallels which point towards this.

 

[Pukisbaisals]

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

You've brought to my attention how often Rohanne and Cerelle are connected in the text. I’m not that familiar with Rohanne, but perhaps there’s things implied about Rohanne which might be hints about Cerelle.

Rohanne almost lost her position as lady of the Coald Moat, so I think she could sympathize with  Cerelle. And ir could be her idea to marry Ellyn (if she was Cyrelle) to Gerold's heir Tywald.

In not abridged version of "The Westerlands" here:

Spoiler

"In 240 she gave him a daughter, whom she named Rohanne.  In 241 another daughter, Cyrelle.  Both these names were carefully chosen, Maester Belden points out.  “Daggers aimed at Lord Gerold’s heart,” he calls them.  In 242 Lady Tarbeck produced a son, a lusty red-haired boy she named Tion."

I don't really think, that Ellyn named her children that way only to annoy lord Gerold. Maybe she really respected Rohanne and her own first husband Tion.

 

9 hours ago, Lollygag said:

I’ve noticed that Cersei is a parallel for Ellyn in story, so I think we can find out something about Ellyn by looking at Cersei. Actually, for the longest time I thought this was a picture of Cersei (check out that odd placement of the candle flame!) but it’s really Ellyn.

Yes she looks  very Lannister in this picture. But I don't really understand who is black-haired unnamed lady depicted in not abridged version of "The Westerlands" next to Ellyn's story. Could this hint that Ellyn survived and changed her appearance? Or maybe the blond one in the first picture are in fact not Ellyn, but Jeyne Marbrand?

Maybe candle hints on connection to Joanna Lannister in Jaimie's vision? 

 

[Lollygag]

7 hours ago, Pukisbaisals said:

Rohanne almost lost her position as lady of the Coald Moat, so I think she could sympathize with  Cerelle. And ir could be her idea to marry Ellyn (if she was Cyrelle) to Gerold's heir Tywald.

In not abridged version of "The Westerlands" here:

  Reveal hidden contents

"In 240 she gave him a daughter, whom she named Rohanne.  In 241 another daughter, Cyrelle.  Both these names were carefully chosen, Maester Belden points out.  “Daggers aimed at Lord Gerold’s heart,” he calls them.  In 242 Lady Tarbeck produced a son, a lusty red-haired boy she named Tion."

I don't really think, that Ellyn named her children that way only to annoy lord Gerold. Maybe she really respected Rohanne and her own first husband Tion.

 

Yes she looks  very Lannister in this picture. But I don't really understand who is black-haired unnamed lady depicted in not abridged version of "The Westerlands" next to Ellyn's story. Could this hint that Ellyn survived and changed her appearance? Or maybe the blond one in the first picture are in fact not Ellyn, but Jeyne Marbrand?

Maybe candle hints on connection to Joanna Lannister in Jaimie's vision? 

 

I'll have to chew on this different angle on Ellyn for a while. The story says that Ellyn was pretty awful, and following through on the Cersei parallel, that holds up. But it may not be quite right as you're asserting. I think I'll have to dig up that Dunk and Egg with Rohanne in it.

As for the two very different images of Ellyn, I noted recently in the Wow I never noticed that thread that practitioners of the dark arts are given rather similar descriptions among them being short, squat, heavy, broad/flat nosed...Maggy's nose isn't described, but she is short and squat with heavy dugs. It might be artistic license to describe the practitioners this way, but Cersei hints that black magic changes you. That it was a fool who described Ellyn as a sorceress gives it much more weight with me along with sorcery having quite a history in the Westerlands. This is another reason why I'm wondering if Ellyn isn't Maggy the Frog.

AFFC Cersei VIII

The old woman's eyes were yellow, and crusted all about with something vile. In Lannisport it was said that she had been young and beautiful when her husband had brought her back from the east with a load of spices, but age and evil had left their marks on her. She was short, squat, and warty, with pebbly greenish jowls. Her teeth were gone and her dugs hung down to her knees. You could smell sickness on her if you stood too close, and when she spoke her breath was strange and strong and foul. "Begone," she told the girls, in a croaking whisper.

 

The World of Ice and Fire - The Westerlands: House Lannister Under the Dragons

As her good-father retreated to his books and his bedchamber, Lady Ellyn held a splendid court, staging a series of magnificent tourneys and balls and filling the Rock with artists, mummers, musicians...and Reynes. Her brothers Roger and Reynard were ever at her side, and offices, honors, and lands were showered upon them, and upon her uncles, cousins, and nephews and nieces as well. Lord Gerold's aged fool, an acerbic hunchback called Lord Toad, was heard to say, "Lady Ellyn must surely be a sorceress, for she has made it rain inside the Rock all year." 

 

The very different pictures of Ellyn might point to a change, but I normally don't give much weight to the pictures. For example, Tywin has blue eyes instead of gold-green eyes. I think the artists are given quite a bit of freedom though sometimes they're also given specific direction. I suspect the candle flame in front of Ellyn is specific direction as it's a very odd (though well-done) composition choice. Fire did end up being a big part of her arc. Unless we get an error like Tywin's incorrect eye color, we really can't be sure which pictures (or which parts of the picture) were the result of artistic license and which were direction.  As for the picture being of someone else entirely, I have to go on what the book says unless I see an official correction issued. I'm not really sure about this, but I wonder how much of Maggy's description can be attributed to the combination of being in a fire (crusted eyes, weird skin, croaking voice) and blood magic?

 

 

[Pukisbaisals]

On 5/26/2018 at 9:14 PM, Lollygag said:

As for the two very different images of Ellyn, I noted recently in the Wow I never noticed that thread that practitioners of the dark arts are given rather similar descriptions among them being short, squat, heavy, broad/flat nosed...Maggy's nose isn't described, but she is short and squat with heavy dugs. It might be artistic license to describe the practitioners this way, but Cersei hints that black magic changes you.

AFFC Cersei VIII

The old woman's eyes were yellow, and crusted all about with something vile. In Lannisport it was said that she had been young and beautiful when her husband had brought her back from the east with a load of spices, but age and evil had left their marks on her. She was short, squat, and warty, with pebbly greenish jowls. Her teeth were gone and her dugs hung down to her knees. You could smell sickness on her if you stood too close, and when she spoke her breath was strange and strong and foul. "Begone," she told the girls, in a croaking whisper.

You are probably right about connection between sorcery and changes in the body. But such changes probably are not limited to body heaviness, for example, lady Lothston and Shiera were slim and good-looking. Maybe changes are specific to magic type or some magic practice.  By the way, sorcery was several times linked to infertility.

On 5/26/2018 at 9:14 PM, Lollygag said:

with sorcery having quite a history in the Westerlands

Blood magic was particularly linked to Lannisters  - Cersei and Maggy and Sailor's wife and Yna. I also found this one in TWoIaF intriguing:

Quote

He was given the name Tywin, and legend claims that when his grandsire Lord Gerold ruffled the babe's golden hair, the child bit his finger.

So baby Tywin tasted Gerold's blood like some maegi. Afterwards he repeated Gerold's fate in many aspects: they both were very capable rulers, though not loved by people, they both had glorious twins, they both lost their beloved wives, they suffer from similar illnesses at the end of their lives. As if Tywin had received part of Gerold's personality and fate with this drop of blood. Parallel between Gerold and Tywin is even more obvious than Cersei  and Ellyn or Rohanne and Joana.

On 5/26/2018 at 9:14 PM, Lollygag said:

As for the picture being of someone else entirely, I have to go on what the book says unless I see an official correction issued.

In TWoIaF picture (one wiki images are taken from)  both Ellyn and Jeyne Marbrand  are shown, blond lady on the left, dark-haired to the right. In the description of the picture Ellyn is mentioned first, so it's quite normal to assume she is the one on the left. At least I never doubted this until I saw another picture in unabridged version. But in fact it was never specified, at least to my knowledge, which one of two ladies is Ellyn Reyne.

Jeyne Marbrand being golden-haired makes sense, since all five her children are golden-haired. One could expect at least some of the children  inherit dark hair from their mother.  As Ned discovered:

Quote

Thirty years before that a male Lannister had taken a Baratheon maid to wife. She had given him three daughters and a son, each black-haired. No matter how far back Ned searched in the brittle yellowed pages, always he found the gold yielding before the coal.

Marbrand coat of arms depicts burning tree - maybe it is symbolized by the candle?

[Lollygag]

On 5/27/2018 at 4:08 PM, Pukisbaisals said:

You are probably right about connection between sorcery and changes in the body. But such changes probably are not limited to body heaviness, for example, lady Lothston and Shiera were slim and good-looking. Maybe changes are specific to magic type or some magic practice.  By the way, sorcery was several times linked to infertility.

Very much agree with the bolded. I've noticed that the sorcery/infertility connection is actually part of a very complex treatment of only death (or unborn children/dead children/the end of one's line) can pay for life. Sorcery/magic/healing affords you extra powers over life. It must be compensated elsewhere in one's own line). Healers in the Dothraki hoard are eunuchs and the barren and extends to maesters, silent sisters and so on. Dany not being able to have children after birthing the dragons (and Drago's rebirth) is no coincidence. Just balance.

 

On 5/27/2018 at 4:08 PM, Pukisbaisals said:

Quote

He was given the name Tywin, and legend claims that when his grandsire Lord Gerold ruffled the babe's golden hair, the child bit his finger.

So baby Tywin tasted Gerold's blood like some maegi. Afterwards he repeated Gerold's fate in many aspects: they both were very capable rulers, though not loved by people, they both had glorious twins, they both lost their beloved wives, they suffer from similar illnesses at the end of their lives. As if Tywin had received part of Gerold's personality and fate with this drop of blood. Parallel between Gerold and Tywin is even more obvious than Cersei  and Ellyn or Rohanne and Joana. 

That's a nice catch.

On 5/27/2018 at 4:08 PM, Pukisbaisals said:

In TWoIaF picture (one wiki images are taken from)  both Ellyn and Jeyne Marbrand  are shown, blond lady on the left, dark-haired to the right. In the description of the picture Ellyn is mentioned first, so it's quite normal to assume she is the one on the left. At least I never doubted this until I saw another picture in unabridged version. But in fact it was never specified, at least to my knowledge, which one of two ladies is Ellyn Reyne.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Jeyne_Marbrand

The wiki shows Jeyne as being the dark-haired lady. It fits with the characters, too. Jeyne is the Lady, but she's standing aside looking unsure whereas Ellyn is standing in the forefront in Lannister colors in an aggressive pose.

[LindsayLohan]

On 4/20/2016 at 4:59 PM, John Suburbs said:

I've always wondered whether this is a subtle hint on Martin's part that Jeyne is indeed like her mother, as in, not altogether unfamiliar with the darks arts, love potions, etc.

I assumed it simply meant an attractive young woman who married far above her family's social standing.  Sybelle was merely the daughter of a spice merchant, yet married the Lord of the Crag.  Jeyne was daughter to an impoverished house of low social standing, yet she married the KITN.

Even good-guy Kevan Lannister remarked upon Jeyne's marriage when discussing the matter with Tyrion.  Lady Sybelle had approached Kevan about a marriage between Jeyne and one of Kevan's sons, and Kevan refused due to the girl's low social standing.  Kevan isn't even a freaking Lord, he's a household knight for his brother (admittedly, Kevan's brother is LP of the Westerlands). 

[John Suburbs]

17 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

I assumed it simply meant an attractive young woman who married far above her family's social standing.  Sybelle was merely the daughter of a spice merchant, yet married the Lord of the Crag.  Jeyne was daughter to an impoverished house of low social standing, yet she married the KITN.

Even good-guy Kevan Lannister remarked upon Jeyne's marriage when discussing the matter with Tyrion.  Lady Sybelle had approached Kevan about a marriage between Jeyne and one of Kevan's sons, and Kevan refused due to the girl's low social standing.  Kevan isn't even a freaking Lord, he's a household knight for his brother (admittedly, Kevan's brother is LP of the Westerlands). 

Probably. If Jeyne knew about potions, then she probably would have known that her mother was giving her moon tea, probably with some tansey. Unless that whole scene in front of Jaime was an act...