A Horn? No. A Wolf! Jon, Ghost, and the Horn that Wakes the Sleepers

[SiSt]

Coming back to Bael the bard, since there are things that don´t make sense.

He supposedly stayed below Winterfell for at least 9 months, and managed to feed his maid and their child? Living as a thief, or do the lower levels of the crypt connect to the cave systems of the CotF, leading either back to north of the wall, or at least outside winterfell?

There´s the story of Gendel and Gorne, with plenty of parallels to the song of Bael the bard, and in which they discover caves that lead under the wall and resurface near (or inside?) Winterfell.

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WoIaF: It brings to mind a transcription of a wildling song in Maester Herryk's History of the Kings-Beyond-the-Wall, regarding the brothers Gendel andGorne. They were called upon to mediate a dispute between a clan of children and a family of giants over the possession of a cavern. Gendel and Gorne, it is said, ultimately resolved the matter through trickery, making both sides disavow any desire for the cavern, after the brothers discovered it was a part of a greater chain of caverns that eventually passed beneath the Wall. But considering that the wildlings have no letters, their traditions must be looked at with a jaundiced eye.

Is this an echo of an even older tale, how Starks won Winterfell? "They were called upon to mediate a dispute between a clan of children and a family of giants over the possession of a cavern. Gendel and Gorne, it is said, ultimately resolved the matter through trickery, making both sides disavow any desire for the cavern, after the brothers discovered it was a part of a greater chain of caverns that eventually passed beneath the Wall." If so, the Starks won Winterfell from the giants and CotF through trickery/treachery? Not a great way to start out with your new neighbours, so no wonder they needed the wall.

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WoIaF: The brothers Gendel and Gorne were joint kings three thousand years ago. Leading their host down beneath the earth into a labyrinth of twisting subterranean caverns, they passed beneath the Wall unseen to attack the North. Gorne slew the Stark king in battle, then was killed in turn by the king's heir, and Gendel and his remaining wildlings fled back to their caverns, never to been seen again.

Note that is says the king´s heir, not son.

Compared to this:

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"You know nothing, Jon Snow. It went on and on and on. There are hundreds o' caves in these hills, and down deep they all connect. There's even a way under your Wall. Gorne's Way."

"Gorne," said Jon. "Gorne was King-beyond-the-Wall."

"Aye," said Ygritte. "Together with his brother Gendel, three thousand years ago. They led a host o' free folk through the caves, and the Watch was none the wiser. But when they come out, the wolves o' Winterfell fell upon them."

Quote

She shrugged. "Might be it did, might be it didn't. It is a good song, though. My mother used to sing it to me. She was a woman too, Jon Snow. Like yours." She rubbed her throat where his dirk had cut her. "The song ends when they find the babe, but there is a darker end to the story. Thirty years later, when Bael was King-beyond-the-Wall and led the free folk south, it was young Lord Stark who met him at the Frozen Ford . . . and killed him, for Bael would not harm his own son when they met sword to sword."

Note "But when they come out, the wolves o' Winterfell fell upon them.", how would the Starks discover their coming, unless the cave ends near or in Winterfell proper?

So it might be that the story of Gendel and Gorne, and the song of Bael the bard are two that have been mixed and rewritten through the years? Given that wildings only have oral history, it needs to be considered, and GRRM even tells us so through WoIaF, saying that "But considering that the wildlings have no letters, their traditions must be looked at with a jaundiced eye." Both Bael, and Gendel/Gorne were kings beyond the wall, both Bael and Gorne were slain by heirs to Winterfell. We know that the timeline of all this is not to be trusted, so who´s to say these are not stories that have been mixed and contain two or more different original stories?

In any case, I believe this further strengthens the case for underground caves below Winterfell, and that these caves either lead to a way out or connect directly to the caves beneath the hill. I would not be surprised if Abel/Mance (another king beyond the wall) can use the cave to escape from Winterfell himself.

[Sly Wren]

On September 7, 2016 at 2:53 AM, SiSt said:

Interesting descriptions of how Mance won the wildlings to his cause. How do you win a village with a song? What song?

 

On September 7, 2016 at 2:53 AM, SiSt said:

Mance has used the horn to instill faith in the wildlings, and through their search for it, he has bound them to his cause and to each other, as struggling to find something in common is wont to do. Somehow, he knows it´s not the true horn, though. How can he know? Are the runes wrong? Again, is Mance even literate, or literate enough to know runes from Valyrian glyphs? How about Jon, does he know the two from each other? Nowhere in the books can I find Jon being mentioned with "valyrian" except to describe a sword made from valyrian steel.

Okay--I posted a comment on this a few days ago and now can't find it. So, my apologies for not noticing the gaff sooner.

So--I like this idea of the Horn being used as an ideal that almost "enchants" the wildlings. It does have an echo of the Night's King. Which again supports the idea that the Night's King did NOT start off evil.

We have a taste of it in Rhaegar as well, with his singing at Harrenhal. Thought that mostly seems to have worked on women.

And I agree re: the glyphs. No reason at all to think Mance knows what he's talking about on the engravings. He's working strictly off of charisma and uniting against a common enemy.

On September 9, 2016 at 4:35 PM, LmL said:

No it's when Joff receives it at the wedding and cuts the book. 

Have you started on my new podcast? 

AH! Got it (sorry for the delay--my reply to you has disappeared).

And I've started on the essay--I don't process well via audio. So far, very interesting.

[Sly Wren]

On September 11, 2016 at 9:20 AM, SiSt said:

Coming back to Bael the bard, since there are things that don´t make sense.

He supposedly stayed below Winterfell for at least 9 months, and managed to feed his maid and their child? Living as a thief, or do the lower levels of the crypt connect to the cave systems of the CotF, leading either back to north of the wall, or at least outside winterfell?

Yes--this story makes no sense. Especially since Ygritte disclaims the idea of the maid's loving Bael. And the theories that the woman rising from the pool in Bran's vision might be the Bael maid, calling for a son to avenge her.

One way or another, Bael's Tale of the crypts makes little sense. Short term hiding--yes. 9 months? No.

On September 11, 2016 at 9:20 AM, SiSt said:

Note "But when they come out, the wolves o' Winterfell fell upon them.", how would the Starks discover their coming, unless the cave ends near or in Winterfell proper?

Excellent catch!

On September 11, 2016 at 9:20 AM, SiSt said:

So it might be that the story of Gendel and Gorne, and the song of Bael the bard are two that have been mixed and rewritten through the years? Given that wildings only have oral history, it needs to be considered, and GRRM even tells us so through WoIaF, saying that "But considering that the wildlings have no letters, their traditions must be looked at with a jaundiced eye." Both Bael, and Gendel/Gorne were kings beyond the wall, both Bael and Gorne were slain by heirs to Winterfell. We know that the timeline of all this is not to be trusted, so who´s to say these are not stories that have been mixed and contain two or more different original stories?

I like this! We even have the trickery of both sets of leaders.

And it would fit with the Bael symbolism with Jon and Lyanna in Clash; then Ygritte's telling Jon the Gendel and Gorne tale in the cave she never wants to leave.

As for the caves under Winterfell, I brought up on Heresy last year the ties between Bloodraven's cave and Winterfell via  Coleridge's "Kubla Khan." Leaf quotes Coleridge flat out. And the description of Winterfell roughly fits the way Coleridge describes the pleasure dome--walled, ancient gardens tied to a cave.

One way or another, both Bloodraven's cave and Winterfell have unknown, unfathomed bottoms. At least, no one in living memory knows what's down there.

Jon dreams of going "further than before" into the crypts. Down to the old kings. 

So, not only could the caves be highly connected, the symbolism of both Gendel/ Gorne and Bael are clearly tied to Jon.

Though I doubt there's a cave network going all the way from Bloodraven's cave to Winterfell. That would be one hell of a cave.

[SiSt]

1 hour ago, Sly Wren said:

Though I doubt there's a cave network going all the way from Bloodraven's cave to Winterfell. That would be one hell of a cave.

I agree. 

I can't find a thread on the origins of Winterfell, so I'll put this here. 

I commented above on how potentially the Gendel and Gorne story could relate to the founding of Winterfell, and though I realize that it's shaky, there are some potential hints that I've found. 

First of all, Winterfell seems a truly excellent place to live, supremely luckily placed on top of a hot spring, providing what you really want (and need) to survive a winter in the north with any level of comfort. I'll even argue that the safety and comfort of Winterfell is why the Starks have done so well for themselves, as having that comfort and security frees up resources that can be spent on actually building culture and tradition. 

Now, we know that Winterfell is strong with the old gods, which gives us a connection to the CotF. In order to relate to the story of Gendel and Gorne, we also need to place the giants there. 

Consider this from AGOT:

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"Hodor." Hodor stomped through the trees and vanished. Across the godswood, beneath the windows of the Guest House, an underground hot spring fed three small ponds. Steam rose from the water day and night, and the wall that loomed above was thick with moss. Hodor hated cold water, and would fight like a treed wildcat when threatened with soap, but he would happily immerse himself in the hottest pool and sit for hours, giving a loud burp to echo the spring whenever a bubble rose from the murky green depths to break upon the surface.

And combine that with this:

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Osha eyed him with a sour smile. "Now there's a big man," she said. "He has giant's blood in him, or I'm the queen."

"Maester Luwin says there are no more giants. Hesays they're all dead, like the children of the forest. All that's left of them are old bones in the earth that men turn up with plows from time to time."

"Let Maester Luwin ride beyond the Wall," Osha said. "He'll find giants then, or they'll find him. My brother killed one. Ten foot tall she was, and stunted at that. They've been known to grow big as twelve and thirteen feet. Fierce things they are too, all hair and teeth, and the wives have beards like their husbands, so there's no telling them apart. The women take human men for lovers, and it's from them the half bloods come. It goes harder on the women they catch. The men are so big they'll rip a maid apart before they get her with child." She grinned at him. "But you don't know what I mean, do you, boy?"

And we've likely put giants on the spot too, meaning the place may or may not have been populated by both CotF and giants, and that there may or may not have been a conflict.

Osha also tried to find the bottom of the pool, but couldn't reach it, signifying that there are unknown depths below. 

Anyway, Gendel and Gorne somehow win the place for themselves and build the first keep? Dunno. 

If there are threads on this, I'd like to know. 

[Sly Wren]

On September 12, 2016 at 2:46 PM, SiSt said:

I agree. 

I can't find a thread on the origins of Winterfell, so I'll put this here. 

The best thread I can think of would be the Heresy threads, starting around Heresy 100. 

Black Crow is doing a Bicentennial project at present with focused essays. But there may be one on the origins of Winterfell coming up--I'll keep an eye out.

 

On September 12, 2016 at 2:46 PM, SiSt said:

I commented above on how potentially the Gendel and Gorne story could relate to the founding of Winterfell, and though I realize that it's shaky, there are some potential hints that I've found. 

First of all, Winterfell seems a truly excellent place to live, supremely luckily placed on top of a hot spring, providing what you really want (and need) to survive a winter in the north with any level of comfort. I'll even argue that the safety and comfort of Winterfell is why the Starks have done so well for themselves, as having that comfort and security frees up resources that can be spent on actually building culture and tradition. 

Now, we know that Winterfell is strong with the old gods, which gives us a connection to the CotF. In order to relate to the story of Gendel and Gorne, we also need to place the giants there. 

Consider this from AGOT:

And combine that with this:

And we've likely put giants on the spot too, meaning the place may or may not have been populated by both CotF and giants, and that there may or may not have been a conflict.

Osha also tried to find the bottom of the pool, but couldn't reach it, signifying that there are unknown depths below. 

Anyway, Gendel and Gorne somehow win the place for themselves and build the first keep? Dunno. 

If there are threads on this, I'd like to know. 

Or maybe the giants were just involved in building Winterfell? As I was reading your post, I kept coming back to the crypt in that cave under Winterfell. Levels so old they are long since collapsed--pr perhaps were collapsed on purpose.

I'm thinking the hill and caves were there first. And used first--perhaps with a weirwood throne at the bottom of them. The Godswood and the crypts coming first. And then built on because those caves and godswood were so important.

Do we have any references to the Giants keeping to the old gods? Or are you thinking they may have clashed with the children--Leaf calls them adversaries. And the crypts could have been inhabited by children first. But if the giants were also there and driven out. . . . maybe.

I need to give this a think.

[LmL]

Hey @Sly Wren, I just noticed that Jeyne Pool is a total Nights Queen / icy moon maiden in her wedding chapter. It's really thick - she looks carved of ice, and later has the cold inside her (frostbite). She's a willowy maid whose last name is Poole, evoking the willowy maiden with eyes like blue pools that the Seven gave to Hugor Hill. Hugor Hill is a guy who pulls down stars, so you know the deal. That connection aside, she also is in he care of Barbrey Dustin (tie in to the tale of Nights Queen being a Dustin) and she's also called a corpse in the snow by Theon. 

And what does she do? She marries Ramsay, who makes a good stand in for Nights King - he's one who defiles custom and tradition, usurps, and his attire is blood and black. In fact, he sports bloodstones on his clothing - garnets meant to resemble bloody tears. Ramsay is in many ways a parallel to Jon Snow (both being Lord Snow), another AA reborn type. And that's where I am going with this: NK = AA = BSE. 

Just as Rhaegar parallels NK, so does Ramsay and Jon. Ramsay marries a corpse-like ice maiden, while calling himself the Lord of Winterfell. 

Ypu should take a look at that chapter and see what you make of it. Abel the bard is there too. 

[Sly Wren]

On September 13, 2016 at 8:03 PM, LmL said:

Hey @Sly Wren, I just noticed that Jeyne Pool is a total Nights Queen / icy moon maiden in her wedding chapter. It's really thick - she looks carved of ice, and later has the cold inside her (frostbite). She's a willowy maid whose last name is Poole, evoking the willowy maiden with eyes like blue pools that the Seven gave to Hugor Hill. Hugor Hill is a guy who pulls down stars, so you know the deal. That connection aside, she also is in he care of Barbrey Dustin (tie in to the tale of Nights Queen being a Dustin) and she's also called a corpse in the snow by Theon. 

And what does she do? She marries Ramsay, who makes a good stand in for Nights King - he's one who defiles custom and tradition, usurps, and his attire is blood and black. In fact, he sports bloodstones on his clothing - garnets meant to resemble bloody tears. Ramsay is in many ways a parallel to Jon Snow (both being Lord Snow), another AA reborn type. And that's where I am going with this: NK = AA = BSE. 

Just as Rhaegar parallels NK, so does Ramsay and Jon. Ramsay marries a corpse-like ice maiden, while calling himself the Lord of Winterfell. 

Ypu should take a look at that chapter and see what you make of it. Abel the bard is there too. 

YUP! And, as has been mentioned on Heresy a few times, Ramsay's hunting of women seems like version of the Others' hunting women: 

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They hunted the maids through frozen forests, and fed their dead servants on the flesh of human children." Game, Bran IV

So, not only Jeyne as a Night's Queen type (who was hunted for Ramsay instead of him hunting her himself), but Ramsay as a non-Otherized Other--hunting like them without being "never born."

The whole scene is an abomination--especially from Theon's standpoint who keeps wanting to cry out that it's a counterfeit. Theon, the turn cloak, can see the abomination but isn't strong enough yet to call it out. 

[LmL]

14 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

YUP! And, as has been mentioned on Heresy a few times, Ramsay's hunting of women seems like version of the Others' hunting women: 

So, not only Jeyne as a Night's Queen type (who was hunted for Ramsay instead of him hunting her himself), but Ramsay as a non-Otherized Other--hunting like them without being "never born."

The whole scene is an abomination--especially from Theon's standpoint who keeps wanting to cry out that it's a counterfeit. Theon, the turn cloak, can see the abomination but isn't strong enough yet to call it out. 

The fact that Stannis and Ramsay are both NK types, to me, is a huge clue about AA / BSE being the NK. Ramsay expresses BSE symbolism and Stannis AA symbolism, and both play NK roles. Same for Jon, for that matter. 

[Sly Wren]

11 minutes ago, LmL said:

The fact that Stannis and Ramsay are both NK types, to me, is a huge clue about AA / BSE being the NK. Ramsay expresses BSE symbolism and Stannis AA symbolism, and both play NK roles. Same for Jon, for that matter. 

Or, at very least, they are all part of the same basic path: the danger of using blood magic and especially using it for transformative power.

A path that Euron is now on.

But I agree. That plus what I said about Ramsay's hunt is part of why I think the "waking of sleepers" may end up being helpful in the final battle: counter the blood magics without using them oneself.

We need to see what Jon himself is like when he wakes--I doubt he'll get through that unscathed. But I'm also wondering if one is less. . . "scathed" if one doesn't use blood sacrifice to transform oneself.

[LmL]

52 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Or, at very least, they are all part of the same basic path: the danger of using blood magic and especially using it for transformative power.

A path that Euron is now on.

But I agree. That plus what I said about Ramsay's hunt is part of why I think the "waking of sleepers" may end up being helpful in the final battle: counter the blood magics without using them oneself.

We need to see what Jon himself is like when he wakes--I doubt he'll get through that unscathed. But I'm also wondering if one is less. . . "scathed" if one doesn't use blood sacrifice to transform oneself.

Well, I believe the key to Jon's state when he is resurrected and his spirit returns to his body will be the fact that he is a skinchanger, and can preserve his soul inside his animal in a way that neither Beric nor Cat could. Of course he will begin to merge with Ghost after a while, so there's a limited time to raise the body and get his spirit back in - my guess is a couple weeks or so, may a few weeks. I believe the result will be a Coldhands, or perhaps a warmer version of Coldhands - Beric, but not degraded in terms of spirit like Beric. Beric is resurrected by fire, and has pumping blood (though it seems to be black, which would of course fit Jon very well), but has not the preserved soul of a skinchanger. Coldhands was presumably resurrected by ice, so his blood pumpeth not, but I hypothesize that he is a resurrected skinchanger or greenseer, which is why he can communicate with the ravens and why the ravens and elk are not terrified of his corpse stink, which usually terrifies animals. What I would like to see is a "Hothands" Jon, with red eyes like his wolf. That's closer to what I think the original Azor Ahai was like... pretty much exactly. That's what my Last Hearth avatar is all about.  

[Sly Wren]

21 hours ago, LmL said:

Well, I believe the key to Jon's state when he is resurrected and his spirit returns to his body will be the fact that he is a skinchanger, and can preserve his soul inside his animal in a way that neither Beric nor Cat could. Of course he will begin to merge with Ghost after a while, so there's a limited time to raise the body and get his spirit back in - my guess is a couple weeks or so, may a few weeks.

Agreed--I think the key is the warg bond. Which I think is likely to be tied to why the Stark sleepers can wake with their wolves, too. A version of the life in the trees and the second life--but something about Starks, or at least the ancient Starks, keeps them sleeping in those tombs.

Jon, more Stark and north than his siblings--seems like there's a good chance that trait is in him.

21 hours ago, LmL said:

 What I would like to see is a "Hothands" Jon, with red eyes like his wolf.

You do realize you just named the next Game of Thrones themed porno, yes?

Jon dancing around, all revived, like Eddie Murphy's "Hot Tub!" skit.

[Lady Fishbiscuit]

Great essay @Sly Wren! Obviously a lot of work went into this.  A lot of things in here I hadn't considered before.

I love the idea of Ghost finally finding his voice to wake the sleepers.  The Kings of Winter in the crypts have always struck me as waiting for something, or even being contained there for some future event.  I wondered if the sleepers could also refer to the old Barrow Kings and the greenseer COTF in the cavern beyond Bloodraven's cave.

Although men can't sing the song, maybe the PTWP prophesy refers to a man who will be able to (his is the song of ice and fire).  This would probably require that man to be a skinchanger/greenseer.