A Horn? No. A Wolf! Jon, Ghost, and the Horn that Wakes the Sleepers

[Sly Wren]

10 hours ago, Voice said:

Well, we don't know if he was cast down by a "Stark"...

 

10 hours ago, Voice said:

So Night's King was a Stark. A Stark of Winterfell. "Mayhaps" Brandon. But the books never say the man who cast him down was also a "Stark" in name, nor that he was from Winterfell. It is another bit of clever writing from GRRM, imo, that tends to make us assume Night's King was brought down by a "Stark of Winterfell" but that isn't exactly what Old Nan said.

The books only make mention of him being "the brother of the man who brought him down." We know that in the Night's Watch, a man has many brothers.

Yes, but Nan says that the Stark of Winterfell joined with Joramun to take him down. And then he "fell."

Quote

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night's King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night's King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden. Storm, Bran IV

Now, maybe he fell down from shock, tripped, or just wimped out, but there's a reasonably good chance the Stark in Winterfell and Joramun aided the downfall.

 

10 hours ago, Voice said:

The words are wind, and we know the wind is powerful. Particularly wind at the Wall, and wind during the Long Night. The "old powers" that are awakening today were the "new powers" of their day. Night's King certainly seems like a Lord Commander dabbling in new powers...

So yes, I could see the vow being used to cast him down. It will be interesting to hear a Sworn Brother repeat the vow to an Other. Very interesting. Might be the Other kneels. Might be the Other knows the words better than the Night's Watchman. My money would be on the latter.

So, if I'm translating correctly, are you arguing that the "oath" part that's like the Song of Amergin could have been used by the Night's King to unify the land for HIS purposes and the Sword of the Morning turned it around on the Night's King but involving the land for the Sword of the Morning's purposes?

If so, I like it--might explain why the Black Gate responds and yet still seems so cold and not positive. And might be why Sam's saying the words while Bran goes through makes the Wall warm. . .turning the words and the Wall to a new purpose. 

A warm, dawn-filled purpose.

[Sly Wren]

23 minutes ago, Raisin' Bran said:

But in the context of what info we do have from the world book and Old Nan, I would say that no, the words do not belong to the NK.

Unless, perhaps, the Night's King turned the words for his own purposes? Turned the land, the Wall, the Watch to his purpose. 

And then they needed to be turned back.

Rather like the current Night's Watch has turned the words (less magically) to be about protecting the realm FROM the wildlings. As opposed to protecting all humans from the Others. 

Maybe.

[Raisin' Bran]

13 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Unless, perhaps, the Night's King turned the words for his own purposes? Turned the land, the Wall, the Watch to his purpose. 

And then they needed to be turned back.

Rather like the current Night's Watch has turned the words (less magically) to be about protecting the realm FROM the wildlings. As opposed to protecting all humans from the Others. 

Maybe.

In what way would the Words be turned to the Night's King's (is it ok to have possessives on two sequential words?) purposes? Can you describe a scenario where the Words are used in that way.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I cannot imagine it myself.

[Voice]

2 hours ago, Raisin' Bran said:

I am not sure that the man who identified himself originally as "the watcher on the walls, the shield that protects the realms of men,..." would be the Night's King as well. Of course, what we know about the NK stems from a story 8000+ years old.

But in the context of what info we do have from the world book and Old Nan, I would say that no, the words do not belong to the NK.

Old Nan's story tells us the opposite though...

Night's King was a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch, their thirteenth Lord Commander. Thus regardless, he originally identified himself as "the watcher on the walls, the shield that protects the realms of men..."

The words are his, this Stark of Winterfell, mayhaps named Brandon. 

[Raisin' Bran]

6 minutes ago, Voice said:

Old Nan's story tells us the opposite though...

Night's King was a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch, their thirteenth Lord Commander. Thus regardless, he originally identified himself as "the watcher on the walls, the shield that protects the realms of men..."

The words are his, this Stark of Winterfell, mayhaps named Brandon. 

That is not what I meant. I was speaking to your response, to my post, that the words spoken by the sworn brothers belong originally to one person specifically.

If what I am seeing of your response it correct, then the words the Watch's sworn brothers speak belong to each and every single brother. Which is a perfectly acceptable, and probably more popularly held, idea. I was merely exploring another possibility I was considering.

[DarkSister1001]

13 hours ago, Voice said:

So Night's King was a Stark. A Stark of Winterfell. "Mayhaps" Brandon. But the books never say the man who cast him down was also a "Stark" in name, nor that he was from Winterfell. It is another bit of clever writing from GRRM, imo, that tends to make us assume Night's King was brought down by a "Stark of Winterfell" but that isn't exactly what Old Nan said.

The books only make mention of him being "the brother of the man who brought him down." We know that in the Night's Watch, a man has many brothers.

The worldbook filled in some of this ambiguity, I know, but it is "semicanon" (if the SSM response to @WeaselPie can be believed...I don't want to derail the thread, but I trust WP's account). 

And even then, the Worldbook does not name "Brandon the Breaker" as a "Stark." B' the Breaker was a King of Winter, per the worldbook, but we do not know if "Starks" were the only Kings of Winter during the Long Night. Might be a Snow. Might be a Dayne. So long as they were sworn brothers of the Night's Watch, they would've been the Night's King's "brothers." Hell, KoW could even be a euphemism for whoever was Lord Commander during the Long Night... in which case, "Brandon the Breaker" would have been the fourteenth Lord Commander.

I find extremely suspicious that Joramun joined forces to bring down the Night's King, Joramun has a horn to "bring down the wall" and the realm is safe so long as the Wall stands all in one story. 

As to the bolded...awesome!  Admittedly that possibility never crossed my mind. 

[Evolett]

What a wonderful post. As one who has been preoccupied with the theme of singing lately, I’ve really enjoyed this!

My favourite takeaway is the realization that the CotF taught the Last Hero a song to unite the earth. Of course! It makes so much sense and there’s support for the idea in the World Book:

Quote

According to these tales, the return of the sun came only when a hero convinced Mother Rhoyne’s many children— lesser gods such as the Crab King and the Old Man of the River— to put aside their bickering and join together to sing a secret song that brought back the day. TWOIAF

 

Because of the above, I’ve always felt that the Song of Ice and Fire will have to be sung to unite the people – this is implied in the quote – put aside their bickering and join together. But recalling that the world was not fully restored at end of the last Long Night, I think this will not be enough. My feeling is that songs of all the elements mentioned in the Reed’s oath to Winterfell (Fire, Ice, Water and Earth) will be required to re-establish a balance. CotF sing songs of the Earth, from Aeron Damphair we know there’s probably is a song of the sea (song of the leviathan). Now, following on from this post, the song of ice could very well be the howling song of the direwolves, while the song of fire could be the song the dragons sing (Dany’s dragons do sing). In this regard, it’s interesting that the singing gods in the above quote are personified by animals.

 

Thinking about Ghost as the horn that wakes the sleepers (is the horn that wakes the sleepers the same as the horn that wakes the giants of the earth?): Perhaps the fact that Ghost is mute is the key to waking only the Kings of Winter. A real horn would be heard by all and sundry and perhaps alert people/spirts etc. that wouldn’t further the cause. It’s established that Jon ‘hears’ Ghost even though the wolf is mute and I presume the Kings of Winter share this secret transmission frequency to the exclusion of all other ‘eavesdroppers’. When it comes to the crunch, this could be very important.

 

Another reason I’m really happy about this post: it supports work I’ve been carrying out on Targaryen inheritance and the blood of the dragon. One of the traits I’ve identified is a singing trait – actually it appears to be a song of steel (steelsong) and so far my premise is that this trait is essential to the bonding process between dragon and human.

[Scorpion92]

Amazing thread and thank you for posting this!

I can't really add anything to this, because it is very well structured and organized.

However, I have two thoughts on the matter: does "waking sleepers" have any similarity to "waking dragons from the stone"? I don't know where I have read it, but there were curious parallels between all Stark siblings and their journeys and how they might embody "stone dragons": Arya and stony Braavos; Bran and his stone cave; Rickon and Skaagosi which translates from Old Tongue as Stone Men; Sansa and "Alayne STONE". You see the pattern.

Maybe Jon/Ghost's howl will not only wake the dead from Winterfell crypts, but "wake the dragons" (Stark kids) from their slumber and make them unite into pack? Just a quick thought.

Another thought is that I believe the stories of Night's King, the Last Hero and Bran the Builder are all interconnected and have many parallels with events happening now in the books. It is a very long essay, but generally I believe that Night's King was the Last Hero, the first Lord Commander of Night's Watch (naming himself 13th LC in honor for twelve comrades he lost in the battle) who married an Other woman to solidify the truce between humans and Others.

And Bran the Builder, the Last Hero/Night's King brother learned the song of earth from Children and helped to defeat White Walkers near Winterfell area, where he would raise the castle and become first Stark of Winterfell. He would also help his brother and White Walkers to raise the Wall with the aid of giants and Children's magic.

And what I believe happened to Night's King and his Queen is that originally Lord Commander of Night's Watch had the title of King of Winter. I believe per agreement with White Walkers, humans needed to stay south of the Wall and THAT was the original purpose of Night's Watch, while White Walkers made sure no one crossed from the northern side.

I think Bran the Builder conspired with one of the brothers of Night's Watch - Joramun - to depose and usurp Night's King's title of "King of Winter" (I think Joramun is a big Mance Rayder parallel, that is why I think he used to be a brother of Night's Watch).

Since in this thread we kinda confirmed that Horn is really a direwolf, maybe Joramun stole NK's direwolf which could have alerted White Walkers who were his allies, but got screwed over for his efforts and banished with his mutineers by Bran to the other side of the Wall. Eventually they became ancestors of wildlings and swore to bend no knee to anyone. I think Joramun's vows of Night's Watch had something to do with survival on the north side and White Walkers not attacking him and his companions.

And maybe the story comes full circle now: Jon, the Lord Commander of Night's Watch, needs to USURP the title of Lord of Winterfell in order to be called "King of Winter" like Night's King was originally called. And the reason Stark ghosts in crypt will wake and help Jon has something to do with debt Bran the Builder and his descendants owe to Night's Watch? Like they will not be able to rest in peace in afterlife until they help Lord Commander of Night's Watch with defeating White Walkers once again? Kinda parallel to Aragorn and his army of souls indebted to his ancestor?

I don't know, something along these lines.

 

[DarkSister1001]

2 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

Since in this thread we kinda confirmed that Horn is really a direwolf, maybe Joramun stole NK's direwolf which could have alerted White Walkers who were his allies, but got screwed over for his efforts and banished with his mutineers by Bran to the other side of the Wall. Eventually they became ancestors of wildlings and swore to bend no knee to anyone. I think Joramun's vows of Night's Watch had something to do with survival on the north side and White Walkers not attacking him and his companions.

I like this.  We know that the bond between a warg and their direwolf is like a marriage, ending only in death.  But Varamyr thinks that he should have taken Ghost when he saw him (I don't recall if he had thought about killing Jon though) so perhaps there's something to that. 

[Rob Storm]

Very cool post. This may be a tad off the topic of songs/singing but it popped out to me.  Keep in mind I don't like this idea because it is sad.

So if essentially: Horn that wakes the dead=direwolf

While reading the thread and replies it reminded me that the Stark children and their wolves are one big pack.  And in GOT when one of their pack (Bran) was on the verge of death it may have taken a blood sacrifice (Lady), obviously unintentionally, to "Wake Bran from the Dead".

Will Ghost, or another member of the Stark wolf pack need to be "sacrificed" in order for Jon to "wake from the dead"?

This falls in line with your idea that the Horn(dire wolf) is needed to wake the dead just in a slightly different way than the collective song.  

[Scorpion92]

1 hour ago, Rob Storm said:

Very cool post. This may be a tad off the topic of songs/singing but it popped out to me.  Keep in mind I don't like this idea because it is sad.

So if essentially: Horn that wakes the dead=direwolf

While reading the thread and replies it reminded me that the Stark children and their wolves are one big pack.  And in GOT when one of their pack (Bran) was on the verge of death it may have taken a blood sacrifice (Lady), obviously unintentionally, to "Wake Bran from the Dead".

Will Ghost, or another member of the Stark wolf pack need to be "sacrificed" in order for Jon to "wake from the dead"?

This falls in line with your idea that the Horn(dire wolf) is needed to wake the dead just in a slightly different way than the collective song.  

Yeah, there are many parallels of Jon and Ghost to Mithras and white bull. I believe Ghost is a vessel for Jon's soul while he is out, and to put him back into his body, Ghost needs to be sacrificed. However, we learned from Varamyr's chapter that the longer a man resides in a beast, the more he becomes a beast, so basically what we will get back is wolfish Jon. He and Ghost are one and same after all, according to him.

Jon will be a walking undead with half-direwolf personality - a perfect horn to "wake the sleepers" from Winterfell crypts.

[Sly Wren]

On April 26, 2016 at 11:34 AM, Raisin' Bran said:

n what way would the Words be turned to the Night's King's (is it ok to have possessives on two sequential words?) purposes? Can you describe a scenario where the Words are used in that way.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I cannot imagine it myself.

HA! You actually want me to turn my speculative comments into cogent arguments? Madness.

In all seriousness--I'm not sure. I was thinking of the Wall as the hinge that Melisandre says it is. Seems like its magic is. . . changeable. Depending on who might wield it. A hinge. 

If so, could someone take the magics the children taught Brandon the Builder and misuse them? Given all that we've see of how people use and misuse power in these novels, I'm thinking that seems very possible. 

So, using the "union" of the land to control other people, perhaps starting with blood sacrifices (gave her his seed). . . I wa thinking along those lines.

Which might be complete madness. But we've seen a lot of misuse of power in Martinlandia. Seems like it's possible.

 

[Sly Wren]

On April 27, 2016 at 7:13 AM, Evolett said:

What a wonderful post. As one who has been preoccupied with the theme of singing lately, I’ve really enjoyed this!

Thanks! 

On April 27, 2016 at 7:13 AM, Evolett said:

My favourite takeaway is the realization that the CotF taught the Last Hero a song to unite the earth. Of course! It makes so much sense and there’s support for the idea in the World Book:

Yup! Don't misunderstand me--I'm aware that Martin could make it anything he wants re: what the children taught Brandon. But given what he's shown in the Wolrd Book and the novels, I'm thinking the song is it.

On April 27, 2016 at 7:13 AM, Evolett said:

Because of the above, I’ve always felt that the Song of Ice and Fire will have to be sung to unite the people – this is implied in the quote – put aside their bickering and join together. But recalling that the world was not fully restored at end of the last Long Night, I think this will not be enough. My feeling is that songs of all the elements mentioned in the Reed’s oath to Winterfell (Fire, Ice, Water and Earth) will be required to re-establish a balance. CotF sing songs of the Earth, from Aeron Damphair we know there’s probably is a song of the sea (song of the leviathan). Now, following on from this post, the song of ice could very well be the howling song of the direwolves, while the song of fire could be the song the dragons sing (Dany’s dragons do sing). In this regard, it’s interesting that the singing gods in the above quote are personified by animals.

Okay--I'm liking this. All the children of the earth (including magical animals) singing together.

I admit a prejudice against the dragons--they burn the earth. In her dream before waking the dragons, Dany sees life cycles and growth and stars smiling in a daylight sky. . . until the dragon comes. They the world burns and all that's left is ash. But Dany wakes them any way. The song of the earth is cycles, not destruction. So, I'm not sure about the dragons.

But the song of the sea. . . yes, that I like. And, as you say, even the fire would fit the Reeds' oath. 

On April 27, 2016 at 7:13 AM, Evolett said:

Thinking about Ghost as the horn that wakes the sleepers (is the horn that wakes the sleepers the same as the horn that wakes the giants of the earth?): Perhaps the fact that Ghost is mute is the key to waking only the Kings of Winter. A real horn would be heard by all and sundry and perhaps alert people/spirts etc. that wouldn’t further the cause. It’s established that Jon ‘hears’ Ghost even though the wolf is mute and I presume the Kings of Winter share this secret transmission frequency to the exclusion of all other ‘eavesdroppers’. When it comes to the crunch, this could be very important.

I like this. And it might even fit when Sansa hears a ghost wolf in the Vale. 

I've also wondered if Jon has to be IN Ghost for Ghost to sing. That this is the only way Jon can sing the song of the earth, since human tongues can't do it. That would make Ghost a key, too. And, since Jon has already died, he would have crossed into the realm of the dead where the dead wait. Might be part of why he can sing for them while Shaggy and Summer can't get their songs to Lady's Shade.

Maybe.

On April 27, 2016 at 7:13 AM, Evolett said:

Another reason I’m really happy about this post: it supports work I’ve been carrying out on Targaryen inheritance and the blood of the dragon. One of the traits I’ve identified is a singing trait – actually it appears to be a song of steel (steelsong) and so far my premise is that this trait is essential to the bonding process between dragon and human.

Okay--that sounds really interesting. Have you had time to flesh this out into a post yet? 

[Sly Wren]

On April 27, 2016 at 11:22 AM, Scorpion92 said:

Amazing thread and thank you for posting this!

Thanks! 

On April 27, 2016 at 11:22 AM, Scorpion92 said:

I can't really add anything to this, because it is very well structured and organized.

Dive in anywhere!

On April 27, 2016 at 11:22 AM, Scorpion92 said:

However, I have two thoughts on the matter: does "waking sleepers" have any similarity to "waking dragons from the stone"? I don't know where I have read it, but there were curious parallels between all Stark siblings and their journeys and how they might embody "stone dragons": Arya and stony Braavos; Bran and his stone cave; Rickon and Skaagosi which translates from Old Tongue as Stone Men; Sansa and "Alayne STONE". You see the pattern.

Maybe Jon/Ghost's howl will not only wake the dead from Winterfell crypts, but "wake the dragons" (Stark kids) from their slumber and make them unite into pack? Just a quick thought.

I can see that. Not so much stony dragons, maybe, as "dead" or sleeping "wolves." @The Snowfyre Chorus has an argument re: the Starks needing to be woken. 

But I do think all of the Stark kids are currently in underworlds, as you say. And that they need to unite. As for Ghost being the uniter--well, Sansa is hearing a ghost wolf in the Vale and she is thinking of Jon. . . seems like Ghost as being the call that unites them could work.

On April 27, 2016 at 11:22 AM, Scorpion92 said:

Another thought is that I believe the stories of Night's King, the Last Hero and Bran the Builder are all interconnected and have many parallels with events happening now in the books. It is a very long essay, but generally I believe that Night's King was the Last Hero, the first Lord Commander of Night's Watch (naming himself 13th LC in honor for twelve comrades he lost in the battle) who married an Other woman to solidify the truce between humans and Others.

And Bran the Builder, the Last Hero/Night's King brother learned the song of earth from Children and helped to defeat White Walkers near Winterfell area, where he would raise the castle and become first Stark of Winterfell. He would also help his brother and White Walkers to raise the Wall with the aid of giants and Children's magic.

YUP! You and @Voice would have a lot talk about on this subject.

I, too, think it likely that Winterfell was the original "winter factory." 

But the idea of using the White Walkers to help raise the Wall. . . . are you thinking the Walkers' purpose can be turned? Like a Symeon Star-eyes reference or something?

On April 27, 2016 at 11:22 AM, Scorpion92 said:

And what I believe happened to Night's King and his Queen is that originally Lord Commander of Night's Watch had the title of King of Winter. I believe per agreement with White Walkers, humans needed to stay south of the Wall and THAT was the original purpose of Night's Watch, while White Walkers made sure no one crossed from the northern side.

So, a pax? White and black rangers? If so, are you thinking the Walkers are a race per se instead of a product of blood sacrifice?

On April 27, 2016 at 11:22 AM, Scorpion92 said:

I think Bran the Builder conspired with one of the brothers of Night's Watch - Joramun - to depose and usurp Night's King's title of "King of Winter" (I think Joramun is a big Mance Rayder parallel, that is why I think he used to be a brother of Night's Watch).

Since in this thread we kinda confirmed that Horn is really a direwolf, maybe Joramun stole NK's direwolf which could have alerted White Walkers who were his allies, but got screwed over for his efforts and banished with his mutineers by Bran to the other side of the Wall. Eventually they became ancestors of wildlings and swore to bend no knee to anyone. I think Joramun's vows of Night's Watch had something to do with survival on the north side and White Walkers not attacking him and his companions.

Interesting--so, you think Brandon the Builder was the "Stark of Winterfell" in Nan's tale? That they "demonized" the Night's King because they wanted his power? If so, is the Night's King the victim in this scenario?

On April 27, 2016 at 11:22 AM, Scorpion92 said:

And maybe the story comes full circle now: Jon, the Lord Commander of Night's Watch, needs to USURP the title of Lord of Winterfell in order to be called "King of Winter" like Night's King was originally called. And the reason Stark ghosts in crypt will wake and help Jon has something to do with debt Bran the Builder and his descendants owe to Night's Watch? Like they will not be able to rest in peace in afterlife until they help Lord Commander of Night's Watch with defeating White Walkers once again? Kinda parallel to Aragorn and his army of souls indebted to his ancestor?

I don't know, something along these lines.

I like the idea of the Starks' paying a debt. And agree with eh bolded

So, this would be about restoring the "true" king of winter? Return the Watch and the Wall to its original purpose vs. the mess the Night's King made?

[Sly Wren]

18 hours ago, Rob Storm said:

Very cool post. This may be a tad off the topic of songs/singing but it popped out to me.  Keep in mind I don't like this idea because it is sad.

So if essentially: Horn that wakes the dead=direwolf

While reading the thread and replies it reminded me that the Stark children and their wolves are one big pack.  And in GOT when one of their pack (Bran) was on the verge of death it may have taken a blood sacrifice (Lady), obviously unintentionally, to "Wake Bran from the Dead".

Will Ghost, or another member of the Stark wolf pack need to be "sacrificed" in order for Jon to "wake from the dead"?

 

1. 

2. I've thought about Ghost's potentially needing to be sacrificed, too.

But since Jon's done the dying bit, I'm thinking he's crossed the rubicon for himself and Ghost. "You are your wolf and your wolf is you." Though I also have a pet theory that Sansa is both alive and dead via Lady, so this may all be crackpot.

Overall, I'm not sure about Ghost's being sacrificed. But since Jon already was, I'm thinking that might be enough. Jon with soon be the Stark who woke from the dead. Seems like that puts him in a good position to wake up the rest of them.

[Scorpion92]

39 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

YUP! You and @Voice would have a lot talk about on this subject.

I, too, think it likely that Winterfell was the original "winter factory." 

But the idea of using the White Walkers to help raise the Wall. . . . are you thinking the Walkers' purpose can be turned? Like a Symeon Star-eyes reference or something?

Oh, most definitely...The whole arc of Jon as the leader is about uniting two enemy factions who hated each other for thousands of years and make them work or at least coexist with each other. He partially succeeded with Night's Watch and Free Folk (even though he got stabbed by his own men, but I don't think he will eradicate Night's Watch entirely when he is resurrected - he will put people he considered close friends in charge like Dolorous Edd, Iron Emmett, Grenn, Pyp, etc. at the Wall while he marches south to Winterfell with wildlings).

I believe the same will happen again, but between humans (more specifically, the people of the North and wildlings, Old Gods followers in general) and White Walkers. And Jon will be an important figure in brokering a truce. But it will not be right away - he will defeat White Walkers and undead army with Bran's help near Winterfell, just like he needed to defeat wildlings at Battle of Castle Black first before making a truce with them.

There is one important detail here as well - everywhere White Walkers are mentioned, they are called "white shadows". Who else are described like that? Barristan Selmy and Ghost, two close companions and bodyguards of Dany and Jon respectively. I am of the opinion that once White Walkers bend the knee to Jon as King of Winter, they will become his Kingsguard (at least for the Battle for the Dawn, which I don't believe either dragons or Walkers will survive) or some kind of bodyguards. Who better to protect King of Winter than ice creatures that shatter steel with their icy swords?

40 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

So, a pax? White and black rangers? If so, are you thinking the Walkers are a race per se instead of a product of blood sacrifice?

Yeah, something along these lines, I mean, I do not expect humans in black cloaks to blend in with the darkness and surprise or ambush White Walkers or anything like that. I expect the original purpose of black cloak was to blend in the night and catch anyone trespassing to the north of the Wall and breaking the truce Night's King established with Walkers.

As for what White Walkers are, I believe they are humans discovering the Lands of Always Winter and affected by ice magic, because they have a lot of close resemblance to Valyrians and silver-haired people in general. I believe they are the people from Great Empire of the Dawn escaping the tyranny of Bloodstone Emperor after he usurped the throne (which coincided with Long NIght), but that is a separate thread and discussion. And yes, I do believe they mastered ice magic using blood sacrifice, just like Melisandre mastered R'hillor magic the same way. Blood sacrifice is at the heart of every magic we see in this series, I believe, and that actually puts a scare into me regarding Bran and what he will become.

40 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Interesting--so, you think Brandon the Builder was the "Stark of Winterfell" in Nan's tale? That they "demonized" the Night's King because they wanted his power? If so, is the Night's King the victim in this scenario?

Yes, I believe that Night's King was doing exactly what was agreed upon with White Walkers - establishing Night's Watch and sacrificing babies to White Walkers because they have problem breeding (Preston Jacobs has a good video regarding this matter, check it out!). And in my opinion, the original vow was changed over the years. For example, I believe that the vow Sam said in front of Black Gate has a very direct message to us - that the parts of the vow that start with "I shall..." were added later on, and we also know that the records of Night's King and his name were erased once he was cast down. So I believe this brother of NK, King in the North, changed the vows and original purpose of the Watch to mask his betrayal and usurpation. And he probably tasked new member of the Watch to keep Joramun and his faction north of the Wall, which gave a seed to a generation long hatred between Night's Watch and wildlings.

I mean, the theme of usurpation and rebellion is big part of this story, so what if the original ancestor of House Stark, the family we grew attached to in this series, was actually a usurper and not original King of Winter.

But what I think stopped White Walkers from exacting vengeance on Bran the Builder and his coup was the terms of the agreement: there was still "Stark in Winterfell", there was still NIght's Watch and its members who said the vows, and there were still baby sacrifices. I think White Walkers are more honorable bunch that we are led to believe, as evidenced with Waymar Royce in Prologue when they let him fight one on one with a Walker.

41 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

I like the idea of the Starks' paying a debt. And agree with eh bolded

So, this would be about restoring the "true" king of winter? Return the Watch and the Wall to its original purpose vs. the mess the Night's King made?

Yeah, more or less, and Stark ancestors need to help TRUE King of Winter (Lord Commander of Night's Watch who is brother to current Lord of Winterfell Bran) to pay for the blood betrayal and usurpation their ancestor Bran the Builder commited. Something along these lines.

For what it is worth, I think once the conflict with White Walkers resolves and they make a pact with Jon, at that point there will be no Wall, Night's Watch or Winterfell standing, because Jon and Bran will move south to take Iron Throne from Cersei and will have a massive battle with Dany and her "fire" forces on the Blue Fork of the Trident (the vision Dany saw of Usurper and his army armored in ice is actually Jon and the North marching to take what is "rightfully" Dany's - her throne; therefore Jon will be a Usurper in this case, even though in reality he is Targaryen and has more claim to that throne than her).

Jon, Bran, Arya and Sansa all have connections to Harrenhal one way or another (Jon - Harrenhal tournament and where his parents met; Sansa - a lot of bat symbolism and red hair association with Harrenhal rulers; Arya has some significant storyline there; and God's Eye and Isle of Faces with weirwoods just SCREAMS Bran to me), so I think it will be the new place for the capital (after Cersei burns down King's Landing) and royal seat for House Stark which is relatively located right in the center of Westeros.

And I do not think either Jon or Dany will live after winter is gone: Dany will die giving a birth to Jon's son who will be named King Eddard Stark, while Jon will travel to Isle of Faces and give hold on life once his mission in this world is complete, kinda like Arthur and Avalon. Thematically as well - when war is done and winter is gone, it will be time for undead to rest in peace which is what Jon is; Dany already showed that she is not that effective as a ruler in peacetime, she is a creation of fire and chaos, and her future storyline of "Fire and Blood" will prove it. You will need people competent to operate the kingdom on every day basis. That is why I think Sansa will be ruling the new Westeros as queen in King Eddard's name, with her husband Tyrion as her Chancellor/Prime Minister who will parallel his father Tywin in that he will be a king in all but name ("the shadow as high as a king"). You just do not need Jon or Dany at that point anymore when everything is settled and spring has arrived.

So never mind my last three paragraphs, I got carried away haha.

[Evolett]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I admit a prejudice against the dragons--they burn the earth. In her dream before waking the dragons, Dany sees life cycles and growth and stars smiling in a daylight sky. . . until the dragon comes. They the world burns and all that's left is ash. But Dany wakes them any way. The song of the earth is cycles, not destruction. So, I'm not sure about the dragons.

I sympathize with your prejudice against the dragons, but considering that both ice and fire threaten to overwhelm the planet’s ecosystem it would be necessary to bring those elements back into line, methinks. Also, in a fully functional natural environment, fire in the form of the sun’s heat is indispensable to growth and life, while ashes return depleted minerals to the ground. 

I’ve taken a look at the Chinese Five Element theory as a model of interaction between the elements. I find it particularly applicable because it includes wood as an element.  
The five elements are wood, fire, earth, metal and water. They interact with each other in various cycles – the main ones being a generative cycle and a controlling / destroying cycle.

Generating Cycle

• Wood nourishes Fire
• Fire nourishes Earth (ashes)
• Earth gives rise to Metal (ore)

• Metal nourishes Water (soluble minerals)

• Water nourishes Wood

 

Controlling Cycle

• Wood controls Earth (prevents erosion)

• Earth absorbs Water

• Water extinguishes Fire

• Fire melts Metal

• Metal chops Wood

An imbalance at any point in these cycles will have negative consequences on all the rest. Earth itself an independent element, which depends on and is in interaction with the rest. This is the domain of the CotF. As representative of the North, the direwolves are associated with ice and snow while the dragons represent the sun-drenched south. So if there’s to be any collective singing all parties will have to set aside their ‘bickering’ to turn things around.

 

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I've also wondered if Jon has to be IN Ghost for Ghost to sing. That this is the only way Jon can sing the song of the earth, since human tongues can't do it. That would make Ghost a key, too. And, since Jon has already died, he would have crossed into the realm of the dead where the dead wait. Might be part of why he can sing for them while Shaggy and Summer can't get their songs to Lady's Shade.

Back to Ghost as a horn – like you, I’ve also been asking myself whether sacrificing Ghost is really necessary to bringing Jon back. No familiar animals featured in the reanimation of LS and Lord Beric. Catelyn came back to life after lying dead in the river for three whole days. It seems that the soul does not simply depart upon death, but remains close to the corpse or else can be ‘called back’ into the body. The only problem with LS was that her earthly remains had decomposed to some extent prior to awakening. Jon is at the Wall. It’s bloody cold there and of course we have the ice cells where he could be preserved until the time comes.  Thoros not only raised Beric with his fire magic, he also simultaneously healed the fatal wounds as well – another point of importance regarding Jon. If Ghost is the horn that wakes the sleepers, it seems logical that both should be alive to carry out the mission. Maybe I’m reaching here, but I imagine that now that Jon is in the spirit world, he may find out what to do, perhaps receive instructions from the ancestors who still ‘remember’ and then return to actually get things done, such as waking them when the need arises. Perhaps this is one reason why he had to die - to finally overcome that "you know nothing, Jon Snow" affliction  (In this context, remember when Arya dons the face, she tunes in to the spirit world, experiences the pain and emotions of the real victim and sees the man who brutalized the poor girl – so the prospect of accessing information from the realm of the dead is given).

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Okay--that sounds really interesting. Have you had time to flesh this out into a post yet?

I’m not done with that essay yet but you might like the one on frozen fire and the genetic significance of blue winter roses which deals with Jon Snow’s inheritance linked in my signature.

[Evolett]

21 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

Dany will die giving a birth to Jon's son who will be named King Eddard Stark, while Jon will travel to Isle of Faces and give hold on life once his mission in this world is complete, kinda like Arthur and Avalon.

Enjoyed reading your thoughts on the subject but sincerely hope that Jon and Dany will not join in any romantic union!

[Scorpion92]

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

Enjoyed reading your thoughts on the subject but sincerely hope that Jon and Dany will not join in any romantic union!

Yeah, I see what you are saying, but there are just too many textual foreshadowings for me to dismiss it. I guess we shall see. One thing for sure: they will start up as enemies.

[Melisandre's Rubies]

On 4/23/2016 at 1:16 PM, Sly Wren said:

I won't presume to speak for @wolfmaid7, but I had not even thought of this.

As many have said before, Hodor's hodoring is clearly important in some way.

But the singing out of tune--like he's out of step with the song of the earth when he should be in step with it?????

 

I took the phrase "humming tunelessly" to mean that he is humming but it's not a familiar song. My mom tends to hum all the time, almost like a stimming behavior, but it's not the tune to a song just random humming. So, perhaps it's that Hodor's humming is not a well known song but is actually more of the song the Children sing? If that's the case it would be interesting that he doesn't speak the common tongue or the old language but is possibly more in tune with the language of the earth.