Jump to content

A Horn? No. A Wolf! Jon, Ghost, and the Horn that Wakes the Sleepers


Sly Wren

Recommended Posts

On April 28, 2016 at 2:05 PM, Scorpion92 said:

I believe the same will happen again, but between humans (more specifically, the people of the North and wildlings, Old Gods followers in general) and White Walkers. And Jon will be an important figure in brokering a truce. But it will not be right away - he will defeat White Walkers and undead army with Bran's help near Winterfell, just like he needed to defeat wildlings at Battle of Castle Black first before making a truce with them.

I, too, think Jon will (with the help of other people) be able to defeat the walkers and whoever is behind them.

But, call it wishful thinking, but I'm thinking that this fight might be more final. Not that people won't keep warring and all that, but that the forces that raised the wights and walkers might be on their last ditch effort. If Jon can bring that down, they may not be able to do it again.

Which would make the land safer for all who live on it.

On April 28, 2016 at 2:05 PM, Scorpion92 said:

There is one important detail here as well - everywhere White Walkers are mentioned, they are called "white shadows". Who else are described like that? Barristan Selmy and Ghost, two close companions and bodyguards of Dany and Jon respectively. I am of the opinion that once White Walkers bend the knee to Jon as King of Winter, they will become his Kingsguard (at least for the Battle for the Dawn, which I don't believe either dragons or Walkers will survive) or some kind of bodyguards. Who better to protect King of Winter than ice creatures that shatter steel with their icy swords?

I agree on the shadows. Which is one of the reasons why Jon as black shadow is interesting. And the shadows in the the Winterfell crypts, too. The "shadows" makes me think the walkers are tied to the dead. Like the wights. Which makes me think they aren't going to protect anyone but whatever force "brought them back." Or whoever cast the spell that holds them together, the same spell Sam broke with the dragon glass when Ser Puddles melted.

And, to add to the list of wishful thinking, the King of Winter is a Stark and a direwolf--he'll need his wolfpack for real protection. The Starks in the crypts and the Starks who still live. Or. . . maybe that's just because I want all of those kids to go home.

On April 28, 2016 at 2:05 PM, Scorpion92 said:

As for what White Walkers are, I believe they are humans discovering the Lands of Always Winter and affected by ice magic, because they have a lot of close resemblance to Valyrians and silver-haired people in general.

Interesting--so the land itself is producing the magic that affects them? I'm more of the mind that someone's using magic to create/manipulate the Walkers. Martin said flat out that a spell held the White Walker that Sam killed. The the obsidian blade broke the spell. Sounds like the Walkers are magically generated. 

I suppose the Land itself could do it. But "spell" sound like someone or something cast it.

On the Valyrian thing--I had not thought of that and I like it. Dany is drawn to the dragon eggs. The Targs seem VERY obsessed with dragons. So. . . White Walkers as tied to the same obsession of power, maybe????

On April 28, 2016 at 2:05 PM, Scorpion92 said:

And yes, I do believe they mastered ice magic using blood sacrifice, just like Melisandre mastered R'hillor magic the same way. Blood sacrifice is at the heart of every magic we see in this series, I believe, and that actually puts a scare into me regarding Bran and what he will become.

Yup. I worry far too much about Bran to be remotely rational. 

On April 28, 2016 at 2:05 PM, Scorpion92 said:

So I believe this brother of NK, King in the North, changed the vows and original purpose of the Watch to mask his betrayal and usurpation. And he probably tasked new member of the Watch to keep Joramun and his faction north of the Wall, which gave a seed to a generation long hatred between Night's Watch and wildlings.

I mean, the theme of usurpation and rebellion is big part of this story, so what if the original ancestor of House Stark, the family we grew attached to in this series, was actually a usurper and not original King of Winter.

Very possible--though that might be yet another reason that the Walkers need to be gone, not "truced" with. And might explain why some of the wildlings refer to Craster as carrying a heavy curse. It Craster made the same treaty, then it would be a curse.

On April 28, 2016 at 2:05 PM, Scorpion92 said:

For what it is worth, I think once the conflict with White Walkers resolves and they make a pact with Jon, at that point there will be no Wall, Night's Watch or Winterfell standing,

Agreed--I'm starting to agree with others that the Wall needs to come down. It can be used by whomever controls it. And thus is a dangerous weapon--rather like the Berlin Wall. 

On April 28, 2016 at 2:05 PM, Scorpion92 said:

because Jon and Bran will move south to take Iron Throne from Cersei and will have a massive battle with Dany and her "fire" forces on the Blue Fork of the Trident (the vision Dany saw of Usurper and his army armored in ice is actually Jon and the North marching to take what is "rightfully" Dany's - her throne; therefore Jon will be a Usurper in this case, even though in reality he is Targaryen and has more claim to that throne than her).

On this, I'm struggling to see it in the text. It really seems like Jon's role is at the Wall, not at politics. He SUCKS at politics. But he does get that the wildings are humans, sees them as Ghost sees them. But I'm also not convinced King's Landing will survive all of this, let alone the forced political union of Westeros. The "humane" connection with the land is much more important. But that can't be "conquered" into people. 

Getting off of my soapbox now. . . . :leaving:

On April 28, 2016 at 2:05 PM, Scorpion92 said:

So never mind my last three paragraphs, I got carried away haha.

HA!!! If we can't get carried away on the forums, what's the point of posting?

On April 28, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Evolett said:

Enjoyed reading your thoughts on the subject but sincerely hope that Jon and Dany will not join in any romantic union!

Amen. I have trouble seeing it in the text myself. I really doubt Dany's getting through this alive, let alone being seen as a positive force by the Westerosi. Readers will remember the abused child she was at the beginning of Game. But seems like she might die a villain--at least in the eyes of the Westerosi.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On April 28, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Evolett said:

I sympathize with your prejudice against the dragons, but considering that both ice and fire threaten to overwhelm the planet’s ecosystem it would be necessary to bring those elements back into line, methinks. Also, in a fully functional natural environment, fire in the form of the sun’s heat is indispensable to growth and life, while ashes return depleted minerals to the ground. 

Oh, on this I agree. The problem is: dragons and Others are weaponized fire and ice. NOT natural. And those weapons are not safe. Can't be "resolved." Need to be gone. So that the "oath" of the Reeds can actually work: union and coexistence of natural elements. Vs. weaponizing said elements and using them to bludgeon those you don't like into submission.

On April 28, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Evolett said:

The five elements are wood, fire, earth, metal and water. They interact with each other in various cycles – the main ones being a generative cycle and a controlling / destroying cycle.

YUP! Dragons ONLY leave death, though. They break the cycle entirely. And the Others bring a cold so terrible that people smother their babies--destroying the life cycle. 

Those extremes don't promote regeneration. The people in the novels need to use fire and ice in natural, normal ways. Not as nuclear weapons.

On April 28, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Evolett said:

An imbalance at any point in these cycles will have negative consequences on all the rest. Earth itself an independent element, which depends on and is in interaction with the rest. This is the domain of the CotF. As representative of the North, the direwolves are associated with ice and snow while the dragons represent the sun-drenched south. So if there’s to be any collective singing all parties will have to set aside their ‘bickering’ to turn things around.

Possible--I just keep thinking that the "ice dragon" references are to the Others. Which could be telling us that the Others and the dragons are more counterparts than the direwolves.

I do think there are similarities between the direwolves and the dragons--though so far, Dany doesn't dream through Drogon's eyes the way the Stark kids do with their animals. Dany sees herself as a dragon per se, not as Drogon. There is a difference in the bond. And the direwolves would be hard to use the same way dragons like Balerion were used. 

But I do think that the singing together is a key element to getting all of this resolved. As well as listening to others' songs.

On April 28, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Evolett said:

Back to Ghost as a horn – like you, I’ve also been asking myself whether sacrificing Ghost is really necessary to bringing Jon back. No familiar animals featured in the reanimation of LS and Lord Beric. Catelyn came back to life after lying dead in the river for three whole days. It seems that the soul does not simply depart upon death, but remains close to the corpse or else can be ‘called back’ into the body. The only problem with LS was that her earthly remains had decomposed to some extent prior to awakening. Jon is at the Wall. It’s bloody cold there and of course we have the ice cells where he could be preserved until the time comes.  Thoros not only raised Beric with his fire magic, he also simultaneously healed the fatal wounds as well – another point of importance regarding Jon. If Ghost is the horn that wakes the sleepers, it seems logical that both should be alive to carry out the mission.

YUP! I admit that I don't want Ghost to die. But if Jon did the dying in this case, then they would both be tied to the dead. And would need to work together.

@Voice asserts that the howl Ghost lets loose when Jon is dreaming in him would only be audible to wolves or others tied to nature. A spirit call of sorts.

Not sure how to prove that yet, but it's an interesting idea. That Ghost "ghost-howls." Which would be very tied to calling for the dead.

On April 28, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Evolett said:

Maybe I’m reaching here, but I imagine that now that Jon is in the spirit world, he may find out what to do, perhaps receive instructions from the ancestors who still ‘remember’ and then return to actually get things done, such as waking them when the need arises. Perhaps this is one reason why he had to die - to finally overcome that "you know nothing, Jon Snow" affliction :D (In this context, remember when Arya dons the face, she tunes in to the spirit world, experiences the pain and emotions of the real victim and sees the man who brutalized the poor girl – so the prospect of accessing information from the realm of the dead is given).

YUP! I suspect this, too, If for no other reason that it's a standard element--the descent into the underworld.

Plus, as you say, he may just "know what to do." Dany just knows what to do to wake her dragons. But only after the trauma of Drogo and Rhaego's deaths and her dreams. Only after seeing what Mirri does. In short, Dany needed a catalyst to "just know."

I'm thinking Jon needs a catalyst, too.

On April 28, 2016 at 2:25 PM, Evolett said:

I’m not done with that essay yet but you might like the one on frozen fire and the genetic significance of blue winter roses which deals with Jon Snow’s inheritance linked in my signature.

YUP! I read that a while ago--wonderful work!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Melisandre's Rubies said:

I took the phrase "humming tunelessly" to mean that he is humming but it's not a familiar song. My mom tends to hum all the time, almost like a stimming behavior, but it's not the tune to a song just random humming. So, perhaps it's that Hodor's humming is not a well known song but is actually more of the song the Children sing?

Okay--I'm liking this idea. Like he's hearing it but can't engage it fully?

The True Tongue is not supposed to be "speakable" by humans. But if Hodor can now hear it, he might be trying to sing it. But failing. 

2 hours ago, Melisandre's Rubies said:

If that's the case it would be interesting that he doesn't speak the common tongue or the old language but is possibly more in tune with the language of the earth.

And given that the True Tongue is not something he can speak as a human, Hodor is stuck. Can't really say anything. 

This has possibilities. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Okay--I'm liking this idea. Like he's hearing it but can't engage it fully?

The True Tongue is not supposed to be "speakable" by humans. But if Hodor can now hear it, he might be trying to sing it. But failing. 

And given that the True Tongue is not something he can speak as a human, Hodor is stuck. Can't really say anything. 

This has possibilities. 

Yes, exactly. Somewhat like humans can imitate a wolf's howl, but it's not quite the same, or even how a dog or, in this case, a wolf can hear and even understand human commands and recognize words but can't physically make them themselves. Some dogs will even try to mimic the sounds they hear often but they lack the physical ability to recreate the sound exactly. Maybe because Hodor is a little slower and quieter, isn't constantly in conversation or internal dialogue, he can tap into that more primal sound. 

I don't know if this connects in but, Bran's ability to communicate with others through the weirwoods could be affected by their mental state as well. Ned only hears the wind shifting, but he is there to pray and talk to the Old Gods through the trees. He connects with Jon a little more effectively, but while he's dreaming tapping into his subconscious more so. When he is able to connect to Theon it's because Theon's mind, as Reek, has been "broken". So, as your mind becomes more full of other matters and internal dialogue you become less able to connect with the natural song and language of the earth? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Melisandre's Rubies said:

When he is able to connect to Theon it's because Theon's mind, as Reek, has been "broken". So, as your mind becomes more full of other matters and internal dialogue you become less able to connect with the natural song and language of the earth? 

I think this is spot on. A mind that is busy with all sorts of things overrides the subconscious. It would also explain why Bran so easily skinchanges the simple-minded Hodor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Melisandre's Rubies said:

Yes, exactly. Somewhat like humans can imitate a wolf's howl, but it's not quite the same, or even how a dog or, in this case, a wolf can hear and even understand human commands and recognize words but can't physically make them themselves. Some dogs will even try to mimic the sounds they hear often but they lack the physical ability to recreate the sound exactly. Maybe because Hodor is a little slower and quieter, isn't constantly in conversation or internal dialogue, he can tap into that more primal sound. 

I like it. And we've seen wordless communication--when Waymar confronts the Others. The first one examines Waymar's sword, watches the light play on it. Only after the Other does that do his buddies show up. But there's no sound. No one hears him call them.

They do speak--the ice breaking sound--when they are playing "kill the watchman." But they communicate silently as well.

So, unnatural Others can communicate silently. The idea that Hodor could hear things others can't and is "stuck between languages"--would fit with some of what we've seen.

6 hours ago, Melisandre's Rubies said:

I don't know if this connects in but, Bran's ability to communicate with others through the weirwoods could be affected by their mental state as well. Ned only hears the wind shifting, but he is there to pray and talk to the Old Gods through the trees. He connects with Jon a little more effectively, but while he's dreaming tapping into his subconscious more so. When he is able to connect to Theon it's because Theon's mind, as Reek, has been "broken". So, as your mind becomes more full of other matters and internal dialogue you become less able to connect with the natural song and language of the earth? 

And, with Jon--at that moment, Jon's in Ghost. Which seems to make Jon more open. When Jon's with the wildlings who are taking the vow, it's when he connects with Ghost (smells and hears like a wolf) that he can see all the wildlings as just people. The skin changing opens perspective.

Honor is not a skin changer--far as we know. He has nowhere for Bran to communicate with him. But Bran can take him over in ways that he can't with others.

4 hours ago, Evolett said:

I think this is spot on. A mind that is busy with all sorts of things overrides the subconscious. It would also explain why Bran so easily skinchanges the simple-minded Hodor.

Agreed. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 great work! much to reflect on!
 

 

On 20/04/2016 at 0:52 PM, Sly Wren said:

Ghost nuzzled up against his shoulder, and Jon draped an arm around him. He could smell Horse's unwashed breeches, the sweet scent Satin combed into his beard, the rank sharp smell of fear, the giant's overpowering musk. He could hear the beating of his own heart. When he looked across the grove at the woman with her child, the two greybeards, the Hornfoot man with his maimed feet, all he saw was men. Dance, Jon VII

I think this is an important quote, Jon has spent time living with the wildlings and deconditioning himself from some of Old Nan's horror stories; Ghost helps him cristallise his thoughts.

 

On 30/04/2016 at 0:50 AM, Sly Wren said:

Dragons ONLY leave death, though. They break the cycle entirely. And the Others bring a cold so terrible that people smother their babies--destroying the life cycle. 

Those extremes don't promote regeneration

Very much so!

At this point of the story, there are few dragons and few WW and it may remain that way. This gives an opportunity for these two extremes to cancel each other out in some battle, perhaps lead by Bran and Dany.

And let Jon deal with the destruction of the growing parasitic threat ie the wights' army, most likely swelled by the collateral damage of the battle of the extremes; Jon and Ghost wake up the Dead Starks to help out - they have done it before, they know.

 

The way you place the dire-wolves on the (middle) earth side rather than at one extreme makes a lot of sense.

Once the balance is established, is there still room for wargs?

 

 

On 20/04/2016 at 0:52 PM, Sly Wren said:

C. Jon thinks of Sansa, singing while brushing Lady’s coat. (Dance, Jon XIII) And if Sansa were any more associated with songs, the pages in the books themselves would start singing.

            D. Arya listens for wolves howling, not singing. But still—sound.

 

Ah! whilst Sansa is making the pages sing, Arya is pretty adamant that songs are 'stupid'!!:

'"I'm not an owl," said Arya. "I'm a wolf. I'll howl."

For Arya, howling is her song.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

 great work! much to reflect on!

:cheers: Thanks!

13 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

I think this is an important quote, Jon has spent time living with the wildlings and deconditioning himself from some of Old Nan's horror stories; Ghost helps him cristallise his thoughts.

Yup! Ghost speaks the language of the earth (I think). In Ghost, Jon can communicate with Bran when Bran reaches out to him as a weirwood. So, Ghost. . . translates for Jon in a way.

13 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

Very much so!

At this point of the story, there are few dragons and few WW and it may remain that way. This gives an opportunity for these two extremes to cancel each other out in some battle, perhaps lead by Bran and Dany.

Possible--though I still think Dany will be more focused on conquering. Her attention will hopefully get turned to the existential threat of the Others. But I can see her getting stuck fighting in the south.

13 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

And let Jon deal with the destruction of the growing parasitic threat ie the wights' army, most likely swelled by the collateral damage of the battle of the extremes; Jon and Ghost wake up the Dead Starks to help out - they have done it before, they know.

I like it. A division of labor. Still. . . .I'm not sold on Dany's being able to take out the Others. Seems like that would be Bran or Jon's job.

Or the job of a unified front.

13 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

The way you place the dire-wolves on the (middle) earth side rather than at one extreme makes a lot of sense.

Once the balance is established, is there still room for wargs?

Huh. I had not thought of this. Leaf does say the direwolves will last the longest, which makes it sound like the potential for wargs will remain.

But if one of the purposes of wargs is to be connected to the song of the earth (I realize that's a big assumption, but seems like that's at least one of the functions of the warg bond), that could still be helpful in a magical land.

But if the magics dwindle again after this fight. . . yeah, I could see no wargs. Though it's a rather sad concept. 

13 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

Ah! whilst Sansa is making the pages sing, Arya is pretty adamant that songs are 'stupid'!!:

'"I'm not an owl," said Arya. "I'm a wolf. I'll howl."

For Arya, howling is her song.

Excellent catch! I missed that quote entirely. And she does start howling in Nymeria.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I'm not sold on Dany's being able to take out the Others. Seems like that would be Bran or Jon's job.

Or the job of a unified front.

me neither and i have to admit i have not spend much time looking into the GoT side of the story. I was just toying with the symmetry.


However i am not yet convinced the wights and the frosty fruits are managed by the same agent. As per our other babble, i wonder if the wights are not just an inconvenient side effects of 'playing with ice'; there isn't any redeeming factors in them!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sly Wren

Great stuff, and nice to see you running with the Song of Amergin observation. 

We're too distant to Celtic thought to ever be certain of those ancient literary intents, I'd say the Song of Amergin and Taleisin's similar Cad Goddeu (I have been the sword in hand / I have been the shield in battle / I have been the string in a harp) and others of a similar pattern are following a ritual formula. They express a unity with the realm wherein the speaker declaims their knowledge and experience of all things. Just as the Song of Amergin is in the context of a defence of the realm against otherworldly entities, so is Cad Goddeu, retelling the magician Gwydion's defeat of Arawn, lord of the otherworld, by calling the very trees to fight on his side. 

Curiously part of the battle appears to have involved Gwydion guessing the name of one of Arawn's allies: Bran. However that passage may actually be an obscure reference to bardic tree symbolism instead. I did mention that these old Celtic texts are just too distant from us to be fully comprehensible.

I do think it likely that GRRM has borrowed heavily from Celtic myth for the North in particular. The association with that invocative formula and the raising of some kind of magical army (waking the sleepers) is an intriguing one.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Forgive me if this was mentioned already, I'm having a tough time keeping up with my notifications with the forum so bogged down right now.  But I noticed something that you might find pertinent.  It ties nature, sounds, warhorns, gods and kings all together in a nice little passage...

Quote

I shall the dwarf was thinking, when he spied a rippling ahead not six yards from the boat.  He was about to point it out to Lemore when it came to the surface with a wash of water that rocked Shy Maid sideways.

It was another turtle, a horned turtle of enormous size, its dark green shell mottled with brown and overgrown with water moss and crusty black river molluscs.  It raised its head and bellowed, a deep-throated thrumming roar louder than any warhorn that Tyrion had ever heard.  "We are blessed," Ysilla was crying loudly, as tears streamed down her face.  "We are blessed, we are blessed."

Duck was hooting, and Young Griff too.  Haldon came out on deck to learn the cause of the commotion...but too late.  The giant turtle had vanished below the water once again.  "What was the cause of all the noise?" the Halfmaester asked.

"A turtle," said Tyrion.  "A turtle bigger than this boat."

"It was him," cried Yandry.  "The Old Man of the River."

Any why not?   Tyrion grinned.  Gods and wonders always appear, to attend the birth of kings.

It may also be that Haldon was sleeping when this happened and the "turtle horn" woke him.  Tyrion previously said he was "abed with turtle crawling out of his arse". 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On May 3, 2016 at 1:30 AM, Arry'sFleas said:

However i am not yet convinced the wights and the frosty fruits are managed by the same agent. As per our other babble, i wonder if the wights are not just an inconvenient side effects of 'playing with ice'; there isn't any redeeming factors in them!

Well, since I just yammered out an OP on how I think the Stark dead will rise, the idea that the wights could be tied to the rise in magic has merit. Thoros' raising Beric wasn't possible beforehand. So, the wights could be just part of that trend.

That said, the wights do seem to be used somewhat strategically. The wights brought into Castle Black could very well have been planted to be found. And the wight kills Jon's guard, but then goes for Mormont. Not Jon or anyone else. Sounds like it has a mission. If so, sorta useful to send something that is just dead and its death can't kill you.

Maybe.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

 

Great stuff, and nice to see you running with the Song of Amergin observation. 

:cheers: And thanks again for bringing it up!

19 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

They express a unity with the realm wherein the speaker declaims their knowledge and experience of all things.

I like this! Makes me think of Once and Future King. Arthur's being changed into various forms so he can understand everything. 

19 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Just as the Song of Amergin is in the context of a defence of the realm against otherworldly entities, so is Cad Goddeu, retelling the magician Gwydion's defeat of Arawn, lord of the otherworld, by calling the very trees to fight on his side. 

YUP! I often conflate Gwydion from the myths with the Gwydion in Chronicles of Prydain (read them when I was  and loved it). 

But the idea of calling on nature to defeat a lord who was not evil, just of another world--it could very well fit with the novels.

19 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Curiously part of the battle appears to have involved Gwydion guessing the name of one of Arawn's allies: Bran. However that passage may actually be an obscure reference to bardic tree symbolism instead. I did mention that these old Celtic texts are just too distant from us to be fully comprehensible.

Agreed that they are distant and thus we are limited in our ability to access them.

But the guessing of the name--I'd forgotten that. It makes me think of the fact that the Night's King name was obliterated, but Nan insists he was a Stark and perhaps named Brandon.

Depending on how deeply Martin dives into Celtic myths (I gotta think he's playing with at least the basics and likely plenty more than the basics), seems like the idea that we might find out the Starks were "united" with the "otherworld" at some point is very possible. 

And that that info is key to dealing with the current iteration of the Long Night.

19 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I do think it likely that GRRM has borrowed heavily from Celtic myth for the North in particular. The association with that invocative formula and the raising of some kind of magical army (waking the sleepers) is an intriguing one.

:cheers:

One way or another, that part of the oath needs explaining. I've had a few ideas re: what Jon's being called to those crypts for. Some of them contradictory. But One way or another, we have kings sleeping under a mountain. And Jon's dream that they come out of their tombs.

Jon's waking sleepers has to at least be considered as a reasonable interpretation of those elements.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Forgive me if this was mentioned already, I'm having a tough time keeping up with my notifications with the forum so bogged down right now. 

No apologies necessary. This is the first day I've been able to post without the forum throwing me completely off before I finish and then not letting me back on.

1 hour ago, DarkSister1001 said:

But I noticed something that you might find pertinent.  It ties nature, sounds, warhorns, gods and kings all together in a nice little passage...

Very cool catch!

Okay--this ties in with the legend of Mother Rhone calling all her children to stop squabbling and sing together, right? And that's the Rhoynish explanation for how the Long Night ended. I'm still trying to figure out how to coherently connect that into things, but it clearly does tie into it--waking sleepers with a natural horn. . . one that's tied to the "gods". . . fits the idea of singing the song of the earth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Very cool catch!

Okay--this ties in with the legend of Mother Rhone calling all her children to stop squabbling and sing together, right? And that's the Rhoynish explanation for how the Long Night ended. I'm still trying to figure out how to coherently connect that into things, but it clearly does tie into it--waking sleepers with a natural horn. . . one that's tied to the "gods". . . fits the idea of singing the song of the earth.

Thanks and yes ma'am. 

Just thinking out loud...Tyrion has just learned of the parentage and identity of a king (R+L=J).  Based on the reaction from Yandry & Ysilla, I think it's reasonable to assume that this is a rare event. (Ghost "never" makes a sound).  I would equate Haldon Halfmaester with Sam since Haldon learned in the Citadel but never forged a chain and I think the same will be for Sam due to the hour being so late.  Lemore chides Tyrion almost as much as Mel does to Jon about their respective religions. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I like this! Makes me think of Once and Future King. Arthur's being changed into various forms so he can understand everything. 

Although TH White was mostly following Mallory, he was a student of ancient Celtic literature. This theme crops up a number of times in the surviving Irish and Welsh corpus, so I'd be very surprised if it wasn't indeed his inspiration. 

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

YUP! I often conflate Gwydion from the myths with the Gwydion in Chronicles of Prydain (read them when I was  and loved it). 

They're great books. While Lloyd Alexander borrowed names more than really borrowing characters, the books are very evocative of medieval Welsh literature. I suspect the psuedo-Wales of his Prydain inspired a lot of people to seek out the Mabinogion. 

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But the guessing of the name--I'd forgotten that. It makes me think of the fact that the Night's King name was obliterated, but Nan insists he was a Stark and perhaps named Brandon.

Bingo. Could knowledge of who the Night's King originally was grant some kind of power over him, in a similar way?

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Depending on how deeply Martin dives into Celtic myths (I gotta think he's playing with at least the basics and likely plenty more than the basics), seems like the idea that we might find out the Starks were "united" with the "otherworld" at some point is very possible. 

As you'll know from my Eddard in Wonderland thread, I'm a solid believer that GRRM has gone well beyond the basics. He's on record saying that he's not keen on writing an external threat that's pure Orcish evil, so we should be looking for shades of grey somewhere. The Stark colours, of course. We have the White Walkers and the Black Brotherhood, does the Grey Direwolf stand between them?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

And the wight kills Jon's guard, but then goes for Mormont. Not Jon or anyone else. Sounds like it has a mission.

Agreed; everyone assumes that Othor the wight was out to kill Mormont: Mormont, himself, Jon, the readers etc, it just seems so obvious...could there be another reason why he is going for that room?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On May 4, 2016 at 2:38 PM, DarkSister1001 said:

Tyrion has just learned of the parentage and identity of a king (R+L=J). 

Or at least potential king. 

On May 4, 2016 at 2:38 PM, DarkSister1001 said:

Based on the reaction from Yandry & Ysilla, I think it's reasonable to assume that this is a rare event.

The other thing that strike me is that it would be seen as kinda silly by those not connected to the religion. That this is rare, but only means something to those who have the context. Otherwise, it's just a big turtle. Honking. 

The song of the earth is only heard by those who are taught to listen--at least that's what the World Book suggests. It took time for Brandon the Builder to get it. Now, the turtle doesn't seem to be calling for much. But the idea that one must listen--that I could buy.

Although I'm also suspicious enough of Martin to think that he might be mocking himself with this passage. Or even mocking the idea of "the birth of kings." 

But that may be too cynical on my part.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On May 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Kingmonkey said:

Although TH White was mostly following Mallory, he was a student of ancient Celtic literature. This theme crops up a number of times in the surviving Irish and Welsh corpus, so I'd be very surprised if it wasn't indeed his inspiration. 

Yup. The TH White is just the one I found when I was a kid--so, it sticks hardest in my brain.

But the idea of becoming one with all to be able to rule. . . yes, it shows up enough in other places. And it seems like the sort of concept a hippie might embrace.

On May 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Kingmonkey said:

They're great books. While Lloyd Alexander borrowed names more than really borrowing characters, the books are very evocative of medieval Welsh literature.

Oh, yes. Again--I read them when I was 8, so they stick.

But Alexander's Gwydion is not like the trickster we meet elsewhere. And the engaging with the trees--it's too tempting of a parallel with the weirwoods to just pass up.

I need to re-read that passage.

On May 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Kingmonkey said:

Bingo. Could knowledge of who the Night's King originally was grant some kind of power over him, in a similar way?

It has to. Or grant access to the magics he used that were so catastrophic/verboten.

There's no other reason to ban the name. And if, as Nan suggests, the name is Brandon, then the name itself is not the problem. It's gotta be which Brandon it was--all those Brandons, the best was Brandon the Builder. So, knowing the dark side of him, knowing he turned "bad"--that could be the important and powerful information that had to be hidden. 

Which might suggest that whatever gave him power to build great and wonderful things is the same power that made him "dangerous." 

And, once again, I am getting overly worried about Bran. 

On May 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Kingmonkey said:

As you'll know from my Eddard in Wonderland thread, I'm a solid believer that GRRM has gone well beyond the basics.

YUP! Hard to quantify just how far he's gone into things, but really seems like he's done more than just dabble.

On May 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Kingmonkey said:

He's on record saying that he's not keen on writing an external threat that's pure Orcish evil, so we should be looking for shades of grey somewhere. The Stark colours, of course. We have the White Walkers and the Black Brotherhood, does the Grey Direwolf stand between them?

Amen. The Starks as a liminal force/people. Living on a crypt--life mixing with death. The moments at dawn. The skin changing. The Starks are innately in-between.

And, just like twilight, it can transition into daylight from dawn or into darkness from dusk. 

So, back to my worries re: Bran: seems like HOW the song of the earth is used/accessed by the Starks is key to whether or not it's a "positive" force. Not "orcish" evil, but the capacity to go either way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...