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A Horn? No. A Wolf! Jon, Ghost, and the Horn that Wakes the Sleepers


Sly Wren

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On May 5, 2016 at 6:29 PM, Arry'sFleas said:

Agreed; everyone assumes that Othor the wight was out to kill Mormont: Mormont, himself, Jon, the readers etc, it just seems so obvious...could there be another reason why he is going for that room?

Well, what could he want? The raven? The sword?

Killing Mormont, the northern Lord Commander who at least lends some credence to the stories of the impending winter--killing him would put the Watch in a position of not being lead by a "believer." 

Which, if the Others have an objective, would very likely be helpful.

Or are you thinking of something in the room that they might specifically be after?

One way or another, seems like that wight was guided.

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19 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Well, what could he want? The raven? The sword?

Killing Mormont, the northern Lord Commander who at least lends some credence to the stories of the impending winter--killing him would put the Watch in a position of not being lead by a "believer." 

Which, if the Others have an objective, would very likely be helpful.

Or are you thinking of something in the room that they might specifically be after?

One way or another, seems like that wight was guided.

agreed, their appears to be intent.

I just wonder whether it is not just too obvious; the author never put Othor in a physical position to attack Mormont; Ghost and Jon got there before;

The sword would definitely be a huge acquisition for the wight's masters, and the tunnel keys for the wight itself if it needed to escape at some point and return to its base. And of course it would have most likely attacked Mormont for his hot blood, eventually.

 

I know it's a bit far fetched, but these 2 wights were not meant to be in CB, they were on their way to the WWD grove. There would have been some improvisation from their masters as the opportunity occured.

 

Am i too far of topic?

 

 

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On May 6, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Arry'sFleas said:

agreed, their appears to be intent.

I just wonder whether it is not just too obvious; the author never put Othor in a physical position to attack Mormont; Ghost and Jon got there before;

Perhaps. But killing Jon's guard and then moving on the Mormont's quarters. . . that sounds like Mormont.

On May 6, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Arry'sFleas said:

The sword would definitely be a huge acquisition for the wight's masters, and the tunnel keys for the wight itself if it needed to escape at some point and return to its base. And of course it would have most likely attacked Mormont for his hot blood, eventually.

I'm not sure how big the sword would be. Unless they think it's key to defeating them, which, far as is shown in the books, seems unlikely. Even if Valyrian steel ends up effective against the Others, the fighter has to take on Others one by one. It's not a weapon of mass walker destruction.

As for the tunnel keys. .  . if the wight needed to get out with something, maybe. But I'm stumped as to what. And unless we find that wights are rare, I can't see why whoever wighted the wight would need the wight to get out. If it stays in Castle Black and kills a bunch of people, so much the better.

On May 6, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Arry'sFleas said:

I know it's a bit far fetched, but these 2 wights were not meant to be in CB, they were on their way to the WWD grove. There would have been some improvisation from their masters as the opportunity occured.

This is the big question--were the wights left for the Watch or not? I can see the argument both ways.

On May 6, 2016 at 5:33 PM, Arry'sFleas said:

Am i too far of topic?

In a thread about Jon's role in fighting the dead with Ghost and dead Starks? No way. We're literally talking about fighting the dead. All good.:cheers:

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2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

As for the tunnel keys. .  . if the wight needed to get out with something, maybe. But I'm stumped as to what.

that would be for the valyrian sword, i should have been more clear. A valyrian sword is a rarer than a LC of the watch north of the wall.

 

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

In a thread about Jon's role in fighting the dead with Ghost and dead Starks? No way. We're literally talking about fighting the dead. All good

Cheers! i will keep on with the blah-blah!

 

How do you see woken-up dead Starks coming in the picture?

 

What if the fight is not restricted to the North?

This brings me back to Alliser Thorne's visit to KL with Jafer Flowers' hand in a jar. Mormont's intention was to give a wake up call to the king. It did not work, the kingsmen had too much on their plate.

So waking up the kingdom requires a significantly more momentous event. The wildling invasion woke up Stannis, but that's it so far.

Perhaps the wildling immigration will wake up some more? not sure, because it only affects the North.

I think nothing short of a plague of wights all the way south will wake up the southern sleepers. We suspect the plague is carried by the Cold, right? can the Cold get passed the wall?  (recall that both Othor and Jafer had blue eyes when first found).

 

 

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On May 9, 2016 at 8:32 PM, Arry'sFleas said:

that would be for the valyrian sword, i should have been more clear. A valyrian sword is a rarer than a LC of the watch north of the wall.

All fair. And the Others in the Game Prologue check out Waymar's sword pretty carefully before fighting him.

Still, getting just one sword--unless Valyrian steel is capable of mass wight killing (would that be "re-killing?"), getting one sword seems like a lot of effort. And since Mormont stuck it in a corner and didn't wear it after his sinter sen tit to him, would anyone north of the Wall know he had it?

On May 9, 2016 at 8:32 PM, Arry'sFleas said:

How do you see woken-up dead Starks coming in the picture?

Not at all sure. I have Aragorn and the Men of Dunharrow stuck in my head as a metaphor. So I lack imagination beyond that. But the idea of the Stark dead "rising harder and stronger" to take out the wights, also harder and stronger, makes some sense in my brain.

On May 9, 2016 at 8:32 PM, Arry'sFleas said:

What if the fight is not restricted to the North?

This brings me back to Alliser Thorne's visit to KL with Jafer Flowers' hand in a jar. Mormont's intention was to give a wake up call to the king. It did not work, the kingsmen had too much on their plate.

So waking up the kingdom requires a significantly more momentous event. The wildling invasion woke up Stannis, but that's it so far.

Perhaps the wildling immigration will wake up some more? not sure, because it only affects the North.

I think nothing short of a plague of wights all the way south will wake up the southern sleepers. We suspect the plague is carried by the Cold, right? can the Cold get passed the wall?  (recall that both Othor and Jafer had blue eyes when first found).

On coming south--I could see that. I also think, though, that the South will be dealing with a religious war, a civil war, and then a dragon/Dothraki invasion. So, they may be hard to rally to fight the ice zombies.

That said, I really think the only "sleepers" waking are Starks. Jon sees the dead kings stumbling out of their graves--sounds like the Starks per se. And given Ned's odd statement about the cold hell reserved for Starks, I'm guessing there's a half-forgotten history of Starks waiting for something. The oath of the Watch--does it last past death for Starks?

That said (I'm saying that a bit), Ned and Robert talk about how their are graves all over the north when they are in the Barrowlands. So, the potential for mass raising has to be there. I just think Jon's dreaming of what he will do--wake up the dead Stark kings. Jon just doesn't know why or how, let alone what it all means when he dreams it in Game.

On May 9, 2016 at 9:07 PM, Arry'sFleas said:

..should remember not to post when site traffic is maximum..

HA! The site threw me off three times this week. 

On May 9, 2016 at 7:19 AM, Aryya Stark said:

It's posts like this which make me come back to this board. Fantastic essay... so much food for thought. Thanks.

Thank you! :cheers:

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On 13/05/2016 at 11:21 AM, Sly Wren said:

That said, I really think the only "sleepers" waking are Starks. Jon sees the dead kings stumbling out of their graves--sounds like the Starks per se. And given Ned's odd statement about the cold hell reserved for Starks, I'm guessing there's a half-forgotten history of Starks waiting for something. The oath of the Watch--does it last past death for Starks?

all good points...i need to look into these dead Starks, see if i can dig some life out of them. One thing for sure is that since the  Starks are properly entombed, their bones will still be intact! and the bones remember.

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4 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

all good points...i need to look into these dead Starks, see if i can dig some life out of them. One thing for sure is that since the  Starks are properly entombed, their bones will still be intact! and the bones remember.

Yes--that's an interesting point. Will the dead kings rise as ghosts or as physical bodies? We have Ned's shade returning to Winterfell to talk with Bran and Rickon. So, apparently the shades have power. And Bran thinks Shaggy and Summer are calling for Lady's Shade.

But when bones are wighted, they seem taken over by another force entirely. "The thing that was Thistle"--not Thistle herself. 

So, if the dead kings rise (in my hypothetical) as par too the battle against the wights, might they not rise as shades instead of with their bones? I'm wondering if that will make part of the difference.

If not, perhaps Stark bones can be "wighted" while keeping the soul/shade of the original body intact?

Huh--where's that "Beginner's Guide to Westerosi Dead-Reanimation" when you need it?

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21 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

If not, perhaps Stark bones can be "wighted" while keeping the soul/shade of the original body intact?

Huh--where's that "Beginner's Guide to Westerosi Dead-Reanimation" when you need it?

Qyburn has it.  ;)

I wonder if they will be controlled by Jon or Bran.  Or maybe even they're own shade.  Hear me out.  lol  If they have the genetic marker perhaps their 1st death woken their gift in the way that Bran's coma helped with his but were unable to do anything since they were dead.  The shades "sleeping" in the bones waiting for the right spell, time, words, horn, etc..  The shades may be able to control their own bones.  Am I making any sense?

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7 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Qyburn has it.  ;)

And is planning to franchise it in the form of personal bodyguards for highly entitled.

7 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

I wonder if they will be controlled by Jon or Bran.  Or maybe even they're own shade.  Hear me out.  lol  If they have the genetic marker perhaps their 1st death woken their gift in the way that Bran's coma helped with his but were unable to do anything since they were dead.  The shades "sleeping" in the bones waiting for the right spell, time, words, horn, etc..  The shades may be able to control their own bones.  Am I making any sense?

You are making a lot of sense and getting into questions I have about this for a while. And that Heresy has been asking for a long while before me.

We know that memory is in the bones. But we are also pretty sure that the wights are NOT their former selves. 

The idea that the Starks are somehow different by blood as you say has to be on the table. Ned's statement about the frozen hell reserved for Starks, the passages you and I have both found about the Stark crypts seeming alive at times--a genetic difference could make sense.

I'm also wondering, again, about a curse. A failure. @Voice's theory (and others) that the Night's King and Brandon the Builder are one and the same. But Brandon went too far with the magics the children taught him. And this brought on a change.

But I'm now wondering if it might also have brought a curse. The wildlings describe Craster as bearing a heavy curse. And the Starks keeping to Winterfell and to the Wall sounds like a duty. If it were also a curse brought on by what Brandon the Builder did, or the fact that Brandon was able to cross lines of life and death that other people can't--perhaps that same tendency is in the Starks. 

I'll stop before I get so speculative that I start completely babbling, but bottom line: the idea that the Stark bones and shades are different, that they can be woken by the "horn" differently than wights--yes, I can see that.

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11 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

You are making a lot of sense and getting into questions I have about this for a while. And that Heresy has been asking for a long while before me.

Boy am I glad you spreken ze Jazz. 

12 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

The idea that the Starks are somehow different by blood as you say has to be on the table. Ned's statement about the frozen hell reserved for Starks, the passages you and I have both found about the Stark crypts seeming alive at times--a genetic difference could make sense.

I have SOOOO many science fiction comic book movies in my head (NERD alert!).  I was thinking of this last night when watching Deadpool.  They push a person's physical and mental limits to a breaking point in order to awaken their mutations.  Jojen's Greywater fever, Bran's fall...tramatic events push their abilities to the front.  I still hold that the CotF sent the DWs to the Stark children to help them with their gifts, but BR let Bran fall in order to move his training along more swiftly.  Death is as physically tramautic as they get.  Even Varamyr tells us that when he feels a shock of cold.  

Beginning with the intermarrying of the Warg Kings daughters, if not before, ALL the Starks have the possibility or at least the genetic marker.  If they did not have it manifest in life, then surely in death.  If this is the way then we have a possible new problem.  If they have their own shades and remember does that mean that some may go rogue?  Will they have free will or will they be bound in service until their oaths (or whatever) are fulfilled? 

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28 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

The idea that the Starks are somehow different by blood as you say has to be on the table. Ned's statement about the frozen hell reserved for Starks, the passages you and I have both found about the Stark crypts seeming alive at times--a genetic difference could make sense.

I have a feeling Starks are uniquely immune to the threat of the Others. In all of history, we've never heard of a Stark being killed by the Others. Is that not strange?

You two were talking about the crypts the other day, and SW mentioned my notion of Lyanna being in them. I just want to point out that unlike traditional crypts, the elder layers of Starks are closer to the entrance. As one deepens their way into them, one comes upon more recent Starks. Just as Rhaegar was "the last dragon"... Lyanna was "the last Stark" to be placed in the crypts.

I think this is significant. She is the person who lies deepest within them.

Jon is being beckoned deeper and deeper, past the implacable kings of winter, to his mother. Ned is likely there in spirit, if not in body. So he could be the one sending Jon the invitation as well. No tellin. But one way or another, the Starks of yore are a part of the Heart Tree's root system.

 

28 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

I'm also wondering, again, about a curse. A failure. @Voice's theory (and others) that the Night's King and Brandon the Builder are one and the same. But Brandon went too far with the magics the children taught him. And this brought on a change.

But I'm now wondering if it might also have brought a curse. The wildlings describe Craster as bearing a heavy curse. And the Starks keeping to Winterfell and to the Wall sounds like a duty. If it were also a curse brought on by what Brandon the Builder did, or the fact that Brandon was able to cross lines of life and death that other people can't--perhaps that same tendency is in the Starks. 

Did someone mention Asclepius' Miasma?

LOL

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4 minutes ago, Voice said:

You two were talking about the crypts the other day, and SW mentioned my notion of Lyanna being in them. I just want to point out that unlike traditional crypts, the elder layers of Starks are closer to the entrance. As one deepens their way into them, one comes upon more recent Starks. Just as Rhaegar was "the last dragon"... Lyanna was "the last Stark" to be placed in the crypts.

I think this is significant. She is the person who lies deepest within them.

Ohh I like this.  Is there something I can read or just general conversation over time?

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4 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Ohh I like this.  Is there something I can read or just general conversation over time?

Umm a little of both I think... I can't remember where/when I was posting all of my crypt stuff. LOL
 but I'll dig em up when I have a bit more time.

 

4 hours ago, Gendry GOT a WarHammer said:

All I can say is that I really hope when (if?) GRRM releases the last two books all the people who posted crazy bats&*t insane theories like this one will come out and admit how wrong they are.

None of this makes any sense from a real storytelling perspective. It's just a bunch of hogwash.

What good is a mind if you close it?

Such a waste...

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6 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

the idea that the Stark bones and shades are different, that they can be woken by the "horn" differently than wights--yes, I can see that.

Definitely, they must be different. Wights are dead humans risen by the Cold which i believe carries some 'virus' (for want of a better word) which is the cause of their new state. The great majority seem to contend themselves with blood lust (and contagion - attacking the throat); a handful appeared controlled/skinchanged.

Should the Starks bones rise, they must do so unaffected, as long as the Cold is not involved. Whether they need their bones to get about, not sure (would the tombs and ancient crypts need to be opened up?). Perhaps it is enough for the shades to rise.

I struggle to imagine a war/battle between 2 kinds of risen deads. There must be another reason for the Starks, a collective memory to tap into?

For me the question is how will anyone destroy that 'virus', once and for all.

 

 

5 hours ago, Voice said:

Lyanna was "the last Stark" to be placed in the crypts.

I think this is significant. She is the person who lies deepest within them.

well, at least, the last one on the top crypt...

 

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17 minutes ago, Arry'sFleas said:

well, at least, the last one on the top crypt...

Are there two crypts now? ;)

I think Lyanna is the lowest Stark in the crypts...though...it does stand to reason that Ned's sculpture alone might be enough to make his presence in the crypts tangible.

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18 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Boy am I glad you spreken ze Jazz. 

:cheers:

18 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

I have SOOOO many science fiction comic book movies in my head (NERD alert!).  I was thinking of this last night when watching Deadpool.  They push a person's physical and mental limits to a breaking point in order to awaken their mutations.  Jojen's Greywater fever, Bran's fall...tramatic events push their abilities to the front.  I still hold that the CotF sent the DWs to the Stark children to help them with their gifts, but BR let Bran fall in order to move his training along more swiftly.  Death is as physically tramautic as they get.  Even Varamyr tells us that when he feels a shock of cold.

I could definitely see this, especially since we have Craster specifically open of as having a curse. 

18 hours ago, DarkSister1001 said:

Beginning with the intermarrying of the Warg Kings daughters, if not before, ALL the Starks have the possibility or at least the genetic marker.  If they did not have it manifest in life, then surely in death.  If this is the way then we have a possible new problem.  If they have their own shades and remember does that mean that some may go rogue?  Will they have free will or will they be bound in service until their oaths (or whatever) are fulfilled? 

It might depend on what "going rogue" means. 

So far, all of the wights who are raised are non-speaking and seem to function with a unified purpose. They also seem to be anti-human-- "hating the warm blood in their veins" or something. But we don't have a huge sample yet.

So, "going rogue" might mean "not joining the hive but instead remaining as Starks." And I do think they are bound in service, otherwise "wake the sleepers" seems like an odd phrase. It's used very rarely in the novels and always to alert people to a threat, or to mourn fallen guards. Seems like if the kings Jon sees in the crypts are rising, they are "bound" to rise. Or they, like the celtic and Arthurian legends, have been waiting to rise.

But your idea of their retaining their personalities would be interesting. If the Kings start squabbling with each other, that could be hilarious. How do you discipline a Ghost Horde Watch?

18 hours ago, Voice said:

I have a feeling Starks are uniquely immune to the threat of the Others. In all of history, we've never heard of a Stark being killed by the Others. Is that not strange?

I suspect the same, though the fact that we haven't heard of such a thing--there's a LOT we haven't heard of. And Nan didn't leave out Starks specifically in her tales of the Others' coming. But, yes--I do think Starks are different.

11 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

Definitely, they must be different. Wights are dead humans risen by the Cold which i believe carries some 'virus' (for want of a better word) which is the cause of their new state. The great majority seem to contend themselves with blood lust (and contagion - attacking the throat); a handful appeared controlled/skinchanged.

Yup!

11 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

Should the Starks bones rise, they must do so unaffected, as long as the Cold is not involved. Whether they need their bones to get about, not sure (would the tombs and ancient crypts need to be opened up?). Perhaps it is enough for the shades to rise.

I struggle to imagine a war/battle between 2 kinds of risen deads. There must be another reason for the Starks, a collective memory to tap into?

Yup! Given that the direwolves call to Lady's Shade (or at least Bran thinks they do) and that Bran and Rickon see and speak with Ned's shade--at least in a dream--the idea that the shades might get it done seems likely.

As for the battle--the only metaphor I've got is the Lord of the Rings, and that description is almost non-existent. 

We've talked on Heresy about the Others leading a sort of Wild Hunt, driving the humans out. But, if the shades rise, I could see a Wild Hunt going in the other direction--Shades could ride on the wind in ways Wights and Others can't (so far.) Would be more Wild Hunt oriented, then. 

And I'd better stop before this tiny little limb I'm out on snaps and I plummet to my death.

11 hours ago, Arry'sFleas said:

For me the question is how will anyone destroy that 'virus', once and for all.

That's the question, isn't it? Might depend on the "source" of the "virus." Do they need to restore balance? Take down the Wall? All of those seem like fixes that would eventually be undone. 

There might not be a "once and for all." Just another "8,000 year band-aid."

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