Bakker XLIV: The Goddess of Negative Theology

[Baztek]

23 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Womb-Plague explanation from Bakker,

 

 

Love this. The Womb-Plague was simply a unknown byproduct of giving the Nonmen immortality. That later on was used as a crude tool to make the No-God the death of birth. Someone here once said that the Inchoroi were just bumbling idiots just trying whatever, not thinking things through. Kinda confirms that, no?

Were the Inchoroi really allies with the Nonmen at that point? Were they close to their 144,000 figure somehow or other? the inchoroi make warhammer look like my little pony in space so I'm pretty surprised that the womb plague was a genuine goof on their part

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

3 minutes ago, Baztek said:

Were the Inchoroi really allies with the Nonmen at that point? Were they close to their 144,000 figure somehow or other? the inchoroi make warhammer look like my little pony in space so I'm pretty surprised that the womb plague was a genuine goof on their part

Hey, I didn't say it, Bakker did.

[Baztek]

also re: No-God as an unconscious God. if we take the Solitary God, or whatever Mimara sees through her Chorae, as the gnostic father of light or neoplatonic unity, and if we take Earwa as the pole the farthest removed from this reality - as it is matter, physicality, what Plotinus describes as non-being - then is the No-God literally a God of Non-Being? so can we imagine the No-God as a 'divinization' of what is dead and inert, literally a p-god?

[Kalbear]

8 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

NICE.

Interesting to connect Cish w/ Wracu.

I've gotta admit, I'm pretty surprised you're happy with that response. Wracu don't become unstoppable killing machines because it would be kind of painful?

[Sci-2]

41 minutes ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

I've gotta admit, I'm pretty surprised you're happy with that response. Wracu don't become unstoppable killing machines because it would be kind of painful?

We don't know how painful it is, or how dedicated Wracu are to the cause. 

Are Wracu even damned as ensouled beings?

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

We don't know how painful it is, or how dedicated Wracu are to the cause. 

Are Wracu even damned as ensouled beings?

Well, if they're dedicated enough to go flying into battle to go kill things you'd think they'd be dedicated enough to wear a patch that hurts a lot. Especially since said patch makes them essentially unkillable. 

Also, wasn't there a comment about how the No-God controlled Wracu? I thought that was because it could control all the Tekne creations that were not souled, but this implies it can control all Tekne creations regardless. 

As to whether they're damned - almost certainly. If not from their form and that they are clearly unnatural and the Chorae wishes to unmake them, then because of their actions. Avarice and violence are both things that damn, even when the Gods tell you that they're totally cool. Avarice especially - desire makes damnation after all. 

[Sci-2]

1 minute ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

Well, if they're dedicated enough to go flying into battle to go kill things you'd think they'd be dedicated enough to wear a patch that hurts a lot. Especially since said patch makes them essentially unkillable. 

Also, wasn't there a comment about how the No-God controlled Wracu? I thought that was because it could control all the Tekne creations that were not souled, but this implies it can control all Tekne creations regardless. 

Yeah I always assumed they weren't ensouled...this opens up a lot of questions.

My guess is that the pain would be enough to interfere with concentration involved with flying/fighting/etc. Seemed to be implied in context?

 

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Yeah I always assumed they weren't ensouled...this opens up a lot of questions.

My guess is that the pain would be enough to interfere with concentration involved with flying/fighting/etc. Seemed to be implied in context?

 

I guess. You'd think they'd be able to fix that somehow. That's some serious, blinding pain if it basically makes them unable to function, but is somehow worse than getting shot by Gnostic sorcery. 

What you should do in that case is have Sranc bowmen shoot at the Wracu when they're engaging sorcerers, so that the sorcery doesn't work for a bit.

To me, this strikes me as less metaphysical and more game balance. Chorae block meaning, and block intention, and block Pshuke, and block Topoi (but only some times, because they didn't work in Cil-Aujas), and are painful some times but not others like when they're on Kosoter (at least not painful enough to stop him from functioning). They also work as a way to summon some clear objective view of space and time. They're a floor wax and a dessert topping. They're like the sham-wow of the Bakkerverse. And that's all fine, mind you - it just means spending much effort trying to figure out the rules on Chorae is probably not going to do much, and folks should just relax. 

[Hello World]

2 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

 Y eaaffectedalways assumed they weren 't ensouled...this opens up a lot of questions.

My guess is that the pain would be enough to interfere with concentration involved with flying/fighting/etc. Seemed to be implied in context?

 

Or that it woild interfere with their firebreathing? If fire is nrither mundane nor arcane it could still be affected by chorae. 

[Sci-2]

10 hours ago, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Yea, it also reminded me a lot of Kosoter......

Good point - I can't remember, does Kosoter salt due to a Chorae? Does he seem to be in pain b/c of them?

1 hour ago, Hello World said:

Or that it woild interfere with their firebreathing? If fire is nrither mundane nor arcane it could still be affected by chorae. 

Ah maybe that too. I think Bakker even mentioned that on the Q&A forum?

3 hours ago, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

I guess. You'd think they'd be able to fix that somehow. That's some serious, blinding pain if it basically makes them unable to function, but is somehow worse than getting shot by Gnostic sorcery.  

Hmm I don't think pain is something that would be fixed by neurological adjustments? The texts tell us even souls feel suffering, Chorae may bring wracu a taste of that level of torment?

Quote

 

What you should do in that case is have Sranc bowmen shoot at the Wracu when they're engaging sorcerers, so that the sorcery doesn't work for a bit.

 

Or a Wracu surrounded by balloons that are also holding chorae? ;-P

Quote

this strikes me as less metaphysical and more game balance.

Sure, I mean the setting was originally a D&D one for him and his brother's campaign right?

I mean I knew the answer might feel a bit arbitrary but largely I just wanted an answer to the question that wasn't pure bollocks. Bollocks with some decent enough icing to is palatable enough for me though.

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Good point - I can't remember, does Kosoter salt due to a Chorae? Does he seem to be in pain b/c of them?

Kosoter carries one chorae on him at all times. It ends up salting Akka at one point. 

3 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Hmm I don't think pain is something that would be fixed by neurological adjustments? The texts tell us even souls feel suffering, Chorae may bring wracu a taste of that level of torment?

Inchoroi can pheremone-lock (whatever the fuck that means) humans. Why couldn't they do that to Wracu? Make them feel super happy and giddy all the time? 

3 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Sure, I mean the setting was originally a D&D one for him and his brother's campaign right?

I mean I knew the answer might feel a bit arbitrary but largely I just wanted an answer to the question that wasn't pure bollocks. Bollocks with some decent enough icing to is palatable enough for me though.

I guess that's cool. It wasn't a major consideration for me to begin with, so its fairly odd answer doesn't bug me so much. Glad you're happy with it at least; I know you've been waiting a long time. 

[Hello World]

Can they pheromone lock (whatever that means) humans or is it done by magic? 

@baztek I think you misread what he said about the Inchoroi and their nonmen allies. Most likely he's just referring to the few nonmen that joined the Inchoroi as allies (like ninjanjin who presumably tried to make his wife or daughter immortal and they died). 

[Hello World]

Just realized that the word "wrested" (the one used when Kellhus pulls the heart from his ribs) has this meaning, 

archaic

"distort the meaning or interpretation of (something) to suit one's own interests or views."

Is this what you were talking about when you said go back and read how Kellhus grasps the heart?

[Callan S.]

On 6/22/2016 at 6:13 PM, Happy Ent said:

White-Luck, n. The White-Luck Warrior’s ability to follow any path through a Bayesian inference network. Given a start state and a goal state, the White-Luck Warrior conceptualises a connecting path. This path is not necessarily a shortest path in the sense of the Dûnyain. In fact, it may be a path of very low total probability. The Warrior, at each internal node in the path, is able to align reality with the outcome along his chosen path, no matter its probability.

But why? So as to keep up the sham of free will 'Ooops, welp that bandit just freely chose to attack me but hey, gunna now make it the notch in my sword matters latter on...free wills is still frees!'

Despite the obsfucation, how is conceptualising a path any different than prediction? How is forcing reality any different from a lack of free will? How free is it if an act of will can be seen in advance, before it has happened?

[Baztek]

2 hours ago, Callan S. said:

But why? So as to keep up the sham of free will 'Ooops, welp that bandit just freely chose to attack me but hey, gunna now make it the notch in my sword matters latter on...free wills is still frees!'

Despite the obsfucation, how is conceptualising a path any different than prediction? How is forcing reality any different from a lack of free will? How free is it if an act of will can be seen in advance, before it has happened?

I don't think he so much conceptualizes a path out of nothing, or even forces anything, but he's got the capacity to be at the right place, at the right time, in every instant of time. 

[Sci-2]

19 hours ago, Baztek said:

also re: No-God as an unconscious God. if we take the Solitary God, or whatever Mimara sees through her Chorae, as the gnostic father of light or neoplatonic unity, and if we take Earwa as the pole the farthest removed from this reality - as it is matter, physicality, what Plotinus describes as non-being - then is the No-God literally a God of Non-Being? so can we imagine the No-God as a 'divinization' of what is dead and inert, literally a p-god?

Nice. 

I have to admit I'm having trouble conceptualizing the No-God as simultaneously being a purely material intellect - and thus invisible to the Gods - while simultaneously it affects the world's relationship to the Outside. 

I suppose it is an AI in some form, though this also makes me wonder if anyone is in the Carapace?

 

[lokisnow]

A girl, Arya, No One is clearly in the carapace.

 

"who are you?"

"no one"

And Arya is pissed and wants her eyes back, thank you very much.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

2 hours ago, Sci-2 said:

Nice. 

I have to admit I'm having trouble conceptualizing the No-God as simultaneously being a purely material intellect - and thus invisible to the Gods - while simultaneously it affects the world's relationship to the Outside. 

I suppose it is an AI in some form, though this also makes me wonder if anyone is in the Carapace?

 

Well, what I took from Bakker's response to the Womb-Plague was that whatever it was that caused the Nowomen to die, also cause the death of birth. Like, they improved upon it somehow. So, I'm beginning to think the No-God is strictly Tekne. It indeed has nothing to do with the Outside other than shutting it off by removing souls on Earwa, that's it.

[Callan S.]

10 hours ago, Baztek said:

I don't think he so much conceptualizes a path out of nothing, or even forces anything, but he's got the capacity to be at the right place, at the right time, in every instant of time. 

This bring us back to unexplained magic.

The means by which this is done? The right place, the right time...but still free will?

HE, if I understood his position correctly, seemed to suggest that no matter what people do in the world, the WLW then uses the physical events of it to future advantage (like the notch in the sword that latter breaks). As in trying to just use whatever they do rather than predict their intent - but it just seems a way of avoiding showing a lack of free will. I mean, why focus on the knotched sword killing the emperor if the WLW might have to take advantage of any other number of other situations because free will means another situation happens? But the WLW sees himself behind and in front, in a path, not an probabilistic explosion of himself all around.

[Hello World]

Can the gods create a white-luck virus and just kill Kellhus with it?

If the gods can make it so that everything happens to allow the wlw to achieve whatever they want (like the building falling after he leaves it), why do they even need the wlw himself? Can't they make a building fall on Kellhus' head or give him a heart attack?