Bakker XLIV: The Goddess of Negative Theology

[lokisnow]

5 hours ago, Madness said:

Bakker's announced SA Q&A! - spoilers regarding the latest Somnambulist teaser image

The spoilers referred to are probably the biggest spoilers to have leaked thus far, so really, do not click it to see Bakker's explanation of the image, nor even look at the image if you don't want stuff ruined. 

[Hello World]

Bakker has started to answer some questions.

[Callan S.]

On 6/19/2016 at 11:52 PM, Dickwad Poster #3784 said:

That's not how it works. The WLW doesn't predict all outcomes. He recalls them.

I know. Given people seem to love to understand how magic systems work, that 'he just recalls them' is somehow enough of an explanation for anyone - this surprises me. Just 'how do you recall something that hasn't happened yet' seems to be begged as a question. It'd be easier to just say it's prediction - but instead of Occam's answer, what's the other?

[JGP]

29 minutes ago, Callan S. said:

I know. Given people seem to love to understand how magic systems work, that 'he just recalls them' is somehow enough of an explanation for anyone - this surprises me. Just 'how do you recall something that hasn't happened yet' seems to be begged as a question. It'd be easier to just say it's prediction - but instead of Occams answer, what's the other?

This is conjecture, but if I recall those few descriptions of the White Luck's particular point of view, what he'd see struck me like a superposition of all possible actions pretty much at once, and by keeping one eye on his goal collapses only those probabilities that further him toward it and excludes all others. Might be that on the surface it sounds like the probability trance of the Dunyain, but after some reflection I don't think that's so. In the case of the White Luck, this isn't some prolonged and somewhat arduous process of identifying and winnowing for the optimal best guess-most likely, if you will, but rather an immediate and perpetual fanning of possibilities to realize a specific. So, if that follows, an argument could be made that there's some kind of Determination at play, and if so, that the White Luck would then be remembering each specific bough, forward-and-back, toward it's definite end-- instead of, as the Dunyain might, trance upon the axiom of a leaf.

  

[Happy Ent]

Here’s my explanation:

Probability Trance, n. Dûnyain term for Bayesian inference, in particular the navigation through a Bayesian network. Such a network is a directed graph (or “network”) of states, with transitions (or “arcs,”, “edges”) labelled by probabilities. When given a desired outcome, modelled by a goal state (a “node” or “vertex” in the network), the Dûnyain monk calculates an optimal path through this network, in the sense that the conditional probability of reaching the goal state  is maximised. Such as path is known by the Dûnyain as the shortest path. The computation of such a path in computationally difficult (it is NP-hard, and even #P-hard in the language of computational complexity), so the monks are expected to use an undisclosed approximation algorithm for all but the smallest instances.

White-Luck, n. The White-Luck Warrior’s ability to follow any path through a Bayesian inference network. Given a start state and a goal state, the White-Luck Warrior conceptualises a connecting path. This path is not necessarily a shortest path in the sense of the Dûnyain. In fact, it may be a path of very low total probability. The Warrior, at each internal node in the path, is able to align reality with the outcome along his chosen path, no matter its probability.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

2 hours ago, JEORDHl said:

This is conjecture, but if I recall those few descriptions of the White Luck's particular point of view, what he'd see struck me like a superposition of all possible actions pretty much at once, and by keeping one eye on his goal collapses only those probabilities that further him toward it and excludes all others. Might be that on the surface it sounds like the probability trance of the Dunyain, but after some reflection I don't think that's so. In the case of the White Luck, this isn't some prolonged and somewhat arduous process of identifying and winnowing for the optimal best guess-most likely, if you will, but rather an immediate and perpetual fanning of possibilities to realize a specific. So, if that follows, an argument could be made that there's some kind of Determination at play, and if so, that the White Luck would then be remembering each specific bough, forward-and-back, toward it's definite end-- instead of, as the Dunyain might, trance upon the axiom of a leaf.

  

So, the White Luck Warrior might be seen as some kind of semi-quantum observer determining that fate flows towards his assigned telos through perceiving the many-forked paths of possible futures and in so doing conditioning the occurrence of the future he requires to complete his task. But given he sees with the eyes of Yatwer, one wonders how entities beyond the horizon of the Hundred's perception, i.e. the No-God, might affect the White Luck. 

[Happy Ent]

I was thinking about the many-world interpretation of quantum mechanics for the WLW as well, and think it fits. One thing:

49 minutes ago, Gasp of Many Reeds said:

So, the White Luck Warrior might be seen as some kind of semi-quantum observer determining that fate flows towards his assigned telos through perceiving the many-forked paths of possible futures 

I believe he observes only one path. That’s what I get from his POV. His power is to collapse the wave function in just the right way at each node to make the directed acyclic graph into a single path. No forking is happening from his perspective, and he inhabits all nodes on the path simultaneously. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Sci's Dragon & Chorae answered......

[Happy Ent]

We sit shrouded in ignorance, endlessly parsing the morsels of revelation!

[lokisnow]

better yet, he described the No-God as an Unconscious God in answer to my question on negative theology.  whether this usage 'of unconscious' means somebody knocked a god unconscious or this usage means a god lacking 'consciousness' is yet to be determined. I lean towards the latter considering what a bugaboo the freudian lack of consciousness is for him on his blog.

http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=1755.0

 

Quote

I've been interested in apophatics for quite some time, but the No-God predates that interest. A better way to think of the No-God is as a philosophical zombie (p-zombie), of a piece with all the other soulless instruments of the Inchoroi. A perfectly unconscious god, and so in that respect, entirely at one with material reality, continuous with it, and so an agency invisible to the Outside.

 

[Kalbear]

That was...an unexpected answer, but it appears HE is right - that for whatever reason and against what JE shows, the Outside can't see unsouled things.

The answer to wracu and chorae reminds me of the statement made by Kellhus in the first series - we should not risk death to remove discomfort over risking discomfort to remove death. Aw, are the chorae itchy? You know what hurts worse than chorae? Getting blown apart by mandate sorcery.

[kuenjato]

I think I'm going to bow out for a few weeks... that last spoiler was not something I wanted to know. Even glancing at the Grimdark review revealed things I didn't want to know. 

Bakker reported over at TSA that he's added 4 new chapters to TUC, meaning the book is going to be fat. Huzzah!

 

[lokisnow]

hehe, I like playing with the term philosophical zombie and thinking it means hordes of undead philosophers wandering about arms out streched moaning, "papers!" "papers!"

<Insert monty python philosophers song here.>

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

As having read the ARC, I really think a lot of people are blowing things out of proportion with the spoilers. I haven't seen any of any consequence to the plot of TGO. Everyone seems to be behaving themselves, for the most part. The latest promotional from Jason Deem could be taking as such, but only because it was pointed out that it could be. Really, it seems to me, that those who have read it are indeed being very respectful. 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Womb-Plague explanation from Bakker,

The simplest way to look at the Womb Plague is as a kluge. The Inchoroi are stuck with the remnants of a technology they can no longer understand. At the same time, think of what it is the No-God, as a technology, yields the Inchoroi: the death of birth. They attempted to give immortality to their Nonmen allies to begin with, to save their souls, realized afterward that their gift was fatal to their women. This yielded a crude tool they needed to accomplish at least part of the No-God's function.

Love this. The Womb-Plague was simply a unknown byproduct of giving the Nonmen immortality. That later on was used as a crude tool to make the No-God the death of birth. Someone here once said that the Inchoroi were just bumbling idiots just trying whatever, not thinking things through. Kinda confirms that, no?

[Hello World]

Quote

Did Kellhus understand it? Without a baseline for emotional intensity, how could he possibly understand it? The Dunyain our every bit as susceptible to neglect as we are--as we learn in many different ways through the books. If there's one thing they are, it's confident that their abilities surpass those of the worldborn. Does Kellhus believe in 'the power of love' or does he believe in belief in the power of love? Only hindsight bias makes errors of neglect seem obvious in retrospect: Moenghus had every reason to assume he eclipsed the worldborn in every way involving power, simply because he so manifestly did eclipse them.

I hope there is more to it than this. Kellhus specifically says that his father is weak because the Psukhe is a metaphysic of the heart as he previously explained to Achamian. I agree with others that it doesn’t make sense for Moënghus to pluck his eyes out unless he knew what he was doing.

Moenghus had every reason to assume he eclipsed the worldborn in every way involving power, simply because he so manifestly did eclipse them.

Maybe he did eclipse them--even in the Psukhe.

[Sci-2]

On 6/22/2016 at 8:15 AM, Michael Seswatha Jordan said:

Sci's Dragon & Chorae answered......

NICE.

Interesting to connect Cish w/ Wracu.

[Sci-2]

Spoiler for Q&A on TSA:

 

 

So Bakker mentions that some souls are like topoi in themselves, even to the point some end up becoming Ciphrang themselves....isn't that a reliable means of escaping damnation?

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

28 minutes ago, Sci-2 said:

Spoiler for Q&A on TSA:

 

 

So Bakker mentions that some souls are like topoi in themselves, even to the point some end up becoming Ciphrang themselves....isn't that a reliable means of escaping damnation?

Yea, it also reminded me a lot of Kosoter......

[Ser Bryar Ashford]

I believe that the ciphrang can eat and torture each other in the outside as well, so probably not a fool-proof escape from damnation.