What if Jon Snow is actually dead dead?

[thegreenmanalishi83]

Is it not possible that Kit Harrington is back to play a glamour of Jon? 

[episodenone]

I'm with those who are unsure of what is to come -- as both the show and the books have surprised me again and again and again.

I think it is less fun to read the books and/or watch the show if the fact is you already know what's going to happen.

And none of us do -- except likely only 3 people on the Planet Earth.  And until the show ends and the books are written -- no reason to consider any theory bunk until it has been bunked or debunked.

Speculate away!  If others don't like your ideas they are free to ignore them.

FWIW - I think Jon comes back ON THE SHOW for 1 reason and 1 reason alone -- Kit Harrington has become a star and his acting fees don't come cheap -- and this is a show that can't afford to throw money away to have a highly paid actor lay around in the snow or on a table.

As for the novel - I think he comes back there too -- but for other reasons.

[dreem24]

What if Jon Snow is actually dead dead?

Good riddance i would say. hehehehe

Sorry for spam...

[DireDoodle]

John Sow is dead.  Period.

Permanently dead?  Reeeeeally doubt it.

[Lord Lannister]

I actually hope when/if Jon is revived he's a shadow of his former self like Beric or Stoneheart were. I'll be annoyed if his corpse is sitting there for days and he just wakes up right as rain.

[b09boy]

The reason everyone's certain he's returning is basically because of the Checkhov trope.  Essentially, you don't waste audience time with things that go nowhere.  Someone like Ned could've had more story left to tell, could have done more, and did leave some loose ends...but all of it was loose ends which could be fulfilled by other established characters.  Jon does not share this.  He's had a lot of development  not simply for the purpose of establishing aspects of the world, but for him to learn to do things, things he's barely, if at all, done.  There's an enormous mystery surrounding him which is entirely pointless should he be gone for good at this point.  It's the same with Dany and now Tyrion.  Dany has spent the entire story separated from everything else going on, so killing her before she can connect to the bigger picture is a waste.  Now Tyrion has turned into the same, where he's spent a chunk of story travelling, thus he cannot be killed before those travels amount to something.

[DireDoodle]

11 hours ago, b09boy said:

The reason everyone's certain he's returning is basically because of the Checkhov trope.  Essentially, you don't waste audience time with things that go nowhere.  Someone like Ned could've had more story left to tell, could have done more, and did leave some loose ends...but all of it was loose ends which could be fulfilled by other established characters.  Jon does not share this.  He's had a lot of development  not simply for the purpose of establishing aspects of the world, but for him to learn to do things, things he's barely, if at all, done.  There's an enormous mystery surrounding him which is entirely pointless should he be gone for good at this point.  It's the same with Dany and now Tyrion.  Dany has spent the entire story separated from everything else going on, so killing her before she can connect to the bigger picture is a waste.  Now Tyrion has turned into the same, where he's spent a chunk of story travelling, thus he cannot be killed before those travels amount to something.

Good points

[Lord Friendzone]

12 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I actually hope when/if Jon is revived he's a shadow of his former self like Beric or Stoneheart were. I'll be annoyed if his corpse is sitting there for days and he just wakes up right as rain.

I understand where you coming from. Partially I agree on this. He'll be different and perhaps even needs to be, but don't expect him to be like LSH or Beric. Beric was resurrected many times and Cat rotted in the river. Jon is dead almost one day, in a cold place. They can take care of him unlike Cat. He needs to gain some ruthlesness and be more savage if you like...but he can't be cruel or entirely changed. You just can't throw away five books of development. George always hated resurrection or rebirth without consequences like in LOTR. He'll have to pay for this maybe with Ghost, maybe even part of his soul. All Arya, Daeny, Jon, Sansa all will be changed by events that happened or will happen.

[episodenone]

15 hours ago, b09boy said:

The reason everyone's certain he's returning is basically because of the Checkhov trope.  Essentially, you don't waste audience time with things that go nowhere.  Someone like Ned could've had more story left to tell, could have done more, and did leave some loose ends...but all of it was loose ends which could be fulfilled by other established characters.  Jon does not share this.  He's had a lot of development  not simply for the purpose of establishing aspects of the world, but for him to learn to do things, things he's barely, if at all, done.  There's an enormous mystery surrounding him which is entirely pointless should he be gone for good at this point.  It's the same with Dany and now Tyrion.  Dany has spent the entire story separated from everything else going on, so killing her before she can connect to the bigger picture is a waste.  Now Tyrion has turned into the same, where he's spent a chunk of story travelling, thus he cannot be killed before those travels amount to something.

 

I know I usually get pooped on for saying so -- and don't get me wrong - I like the novels more than most things I read of this genre and I like the show more than I like a lot of things on TV...

But if you ask me - the Chekov Trope does not apply.  Mostly not in the TV show -- Definitely not in the books.

There is really no rhyme nor reason that either medium could remotely tie together things that at once seemed vital or important only to get lost in the enormity of all that is ASoIaF --- SO MANY plot points and characters either no longer really serve a purpose or would do more harm than good bringing them back into the story.

This is my opinion of course - and you clearly would not agree.  That's totally fine!

I just think something like making Rickon or even Sansa [dare I say it] Lord Commander is possible -- and even more likely than Gendry being a strong seed or ever being seen or heard from again. 

I do not have a list handy -- but that is just a single example that pops into mind.

[DireDoodle]

Most, a lot, whatever.....think that Mel has something to do with his resurrection.  Nothing new to most around here I imagine but interesting to think about.

https://youtu.be/sBwwyRGziLE

[b09boy]

3 hours ago, episodenone said:

 

I know I usually get pooped on for saying so -- and don't get me wrong - I like the novels more than most things I read of this genre and I like the show more than I like a lot of things on TV...

But if you ask me - the Chekov Trope does not apply.  Mostly not in the TV show -- Definitely not in the books.

There is really no rhyme nor reason that either medium could remotely tie together things that at once seemed vital or important only to get lost in the enormity of all that is ASoIaF --- SO MANY plot points and characters either no longer really serve a purpose or would do more harm than good bringing them back into the story.

This is my opinion of course - and you clearly would not agree.  That's totally fine!

I just think something like making Rickon or even Sansa [dare I say it] Lord Commander is possible -- and even more likely than Gendry being a strong seed or ever being seen or heard from again. 

I do not have a list handy -- but that is just a single example that pops into mind.

You're right, I don't agree.  Jon has had SIGNIFICANT time spent dealing with issues with his parentage, in both mediums.  This will not go nowhere.  If it did, this would be bad storytelling.  Same to do with much of his learning and training.

Also have no idea what you're getting at with that last bit.  The idea of Rickon or Sansa as Lord Commander is beyond ridiculous and Gendry served his purpose, no matter how much anybody might enjoy his character, just as Hot Pie did.  I also wonder at what some of your examples of dropped loose ends might be.  In the show they are certainly more prevalent because it completely lack continuity, but for the purpose of a major character such as Jon...not so much.

[239JMFL34109]

3 hours ago, episodenone said:

 

I know I usually get pooped on for saying so -- and don't get me wrong - I like the novels more than most things I read of this genre and I like the show more than I like a lot of things on TV...

But if you ask me - the Chekov Trope does not apply.  Mostly not in the TV show -- Definitely not in the books.

There is really no rhyme nor reason that either medium could remotely tie together things that at once seemed vital or important only to get lost in the enormity of all that is ASoIaF --- SO MANY plot points and characters either no longer really serve a purpose or would do more harm than good bringing them back into the story.

This is my opinion of course - and you clearly would not agree.  That's totally fine!

I just think something like making Rickon or even Sansa [dare I say it] Lord Commander is possible -- and even more likely than Gendry being a strong seed or ever being seen or heard from again. 

I do not have a list handy -- but that is just a single example that pops into mind.

So here is that thing Chekhov's gun is not a trope. It is a principal of story telling. 

"Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there."

— Anton Chekhov

Jon's parentage will be important to the overall story because they have spent too much time in the show laying the ground work for it. 

[Lord_Ravenstone]

On April 28, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Lord Friendzone said:

I understand where you coming from. Partially I agree on this. He'll be different and perhaps even needs to be, but don't expect him to be like LSH or Beric. Beric was resurrected many times and Cat rotted in the river. Jon is dead almost one day, in a cold place. They can take care of him unlike Cat. He needs to gain some ruthlesness and be more savage if you like...but he can't be cruel or entirely changed. You just can't throw away five books of development. George always hated resurrection or rebirth without consequences like in LOTR. He'll have to pay for this maybe with Ghost, maybe even part of his soul. All Arya, Daeny, Jon, Sansa all will be changed by events that happened or will happen.

Have you read weirdwood leviathan's essays on resurrection and Jon Snow?

[kissdbyfire]

On 28 April 2016 at 1:45 PM, Lord Friendzone said:

I understand where you coming from. Partially I agree on this. He'll be different and perhaps even needs to be, but don't expect him to be like LSH or Beric. Beric was resurrected many times and Cat rotted in the river. Jon is dead almost one day, in a cold place. They can take care of him unlike Cat. He needs to gain some ruthlesness and be more savage if you like...but he can't be cruel or entirely changed. You just can't throw away five books of development. George always hated resurrection or rebirth without consequences like in LOTR. He'll have to pay for this maybe with Ghost, maybe even part of his soul. All Arya, Daeny, Jon, Sansa all will be changed by events that happened or will happen.

One day? But either Mr Benioff or Mr Weiss said Cersei's WoS was "a couple of months" ago. So, Jon should be deader than Cat, only preserved by the cold and even that is a huuuuuuge stretch b/c he wasn't in the ice cells or a freezer. And Myrcella should be rotten and well decayed btw.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

6 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

One day? But either Mr Benioff or Mr Weiss said Cersei's WoS was "a couple of months" ago. So, Jon should be deader than Cat, only preserved by the cold and even that is a huuuuuuge stretch b/c he wasn't in the ice cells or a freezer. And Myrcella should be rotten and well decayed btw.

Clearly, on the Wall it's the same day, or day after at most. The same goes for Sansa and Theon, the two certainly didn't run two months without stopping.

[kissdbyfire]

29 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Clearly, on the Wall it's the same day, or day after at most. The same goes for Sansa and Theon, the two certainly didn't run two months without stopping.

It's been one day in the north, and two months in the south?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It's been one day in the north, and two months in the south?

Yes. They skip irrelevant stuff, so they skipped two months of Cersei growing her hair back. What's so funny?

[Lord Friendzone]

12 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

One day? But either Mr Benioff or Mr Weiss said Cersei's WoS was "a couple of months" ago. So, Jon should be deader than Cat, only preserved by the cold and even that is a huuuuuuge stretch b/c he wasn't in the ice cells or a freezer. And Myrcella should be rotten and well decayed btw.

Yep, it's basically almost one day at the Wall. It can hardly be any longer than that. 

[kissdbyfire]

Just now, Lord Friendzone said:

Yep, it's basically almost one day at the Wall. It can hardly be any longer than that. 

Yes, I know it can't, that's my point. Wall/Winterfell - 1 day; down south, a couple of months. So, if someone sends a raven from the north to the south and it arrives on the 'same day', i.e., in what is the present in the North, did the bird fly backwards in time? 

[kissdbyfire]

4 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Yes. They skip irrelevant stuff, so they skipped two months of Cersei growing her hair back. What's so funny?

What is funny to one person might not be funny to another, I think it's hilarious.