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Ser Quentyn Ball


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2 hours ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

1)And look to what led viserys choice to name rhaenyra as heir.

 

2)House Dondarrion have targaryen blood? Now you show lack of knowledge. And Aelinor Penrose, wife of Aerys is not descendant of Ronnel Penrose and Elaena Targaryen. She wassaid to be cousin, but she as well could be cousin through his mother line: daughter of his martell aunt. During trial of seven on dunk side there was only one crown prince and three kingsguard with three princes on aerion side. This was battle not against only Baelor, but also Robyn Rhysling, Lyonel Baratheon, raymun fossoway, dunk and two humfreys.As Humfrey Beesbury was slain in first pass, baelor fought with maekar, dunk with aerion and raymun with his cousin steffon, it seems plausible that willem fought either laughing storm or rhysling. 

 

3)While no lord paramounts joind daemon, many lords have joined him not because of their greed as eustace osgrey but because their considered him as better man. Egg even asked eustace did he joined daemon to gain coldmoat and he answered that he did because he considered daeron ii weak  and bookish.

 

4)I was talking about treaty what brought dorne to seven kingdoms, not baelor peace. Your quote from woiaf shows everything what i said: they kept their rights, they kept right call themselves princes of dorne and 

5)de facto mean that they paid lower taxes.

 

6)Daeron young dragon was killed only 20 years before daeron ii became king. Wounds were still fresh as almost 60 thousands men died during conquest of dorne. People lost fathers, sons and brothers during this war and daeron ii showed that he did not care about their sacrifice by joining dorne peacefully and giving them many privileges and ignoring crimes what they commited during war.

In world where grudges are hold through generations, this was far too soon. 

 

7)I am not talking about paramount houses, i am talking about lordly houses, such as Peakes, Tarlys, Selmys, Swanns and many others. And no, daemon had most support of lower houses, and yes, half of realm sided with black dragon as stated in novels. Daeron had support of lord paramounts, but daemon had support of many high lords within kingdoms such as: Crakehalls, Reynes, Swyfts (they lost their lordship somehow), half of hightowers and oakhearts, peakes, probably tarlys as they were marcher lords, brackens, freys, lothstons(until they betrayed him), yronwoods, sunderlands, stricklands, vyrwels, tarbecks.

8)Daeron had only advantage in stormlands and dorne (thanks to royal marriages) and vale and as we know arryns were always very loyal to targaryens.

9)It was said that during first rebellions there was many battles in reach,riverlands, westerlands and even vale, suggesting that more houses than only sunderlands supported daemon in vale.

1) thats not the point, the point is he was not bound by it, the consequences are an entirely different matter.

2) ever heard of the daughters of baela targaryen, this is what i mean when i say you have a lack of knowledge. Also aside from this, i find it strange that you who was arguing that stormlanders hated dornish are now suggesting aelinor penrose a stormlander has dornish blood and was related to aerys mother, could you at least be consistent either they hate dornish or they don't. I must say that I have more and more trouble taking you seriously because of things like this. And as to the trial baelor told they others to keep his brother and the others away from him until he had taken out the three kingsguard wich is wat happened, so no baelor fought willem thats a fact.

3) some might but not the majority. And Daeron being weak and bookish was an other feeble excuse to hide there greed.

4) i explained why it made perfect scene for them to keep al that, so now you are just being stubborn because you are running out of actual arguments.

5) guess you missed the part where the Iron Throne can come and check on the taxes, irregular oversight is still oversight.

6) He did not ignore the crimes or the dead of Daeron I, again baelor had already made peace and granted forgiveness for al that so he could not act on this. Also even if there where losses he had a pretty good argument by saying that peace would mean they would not lose any more family, and what's more if they where so against the treaty with dorne then why did they wait 10 years before doing something about it. So called resentment against dorne was yet again a poor excuse for there greed.

7) all the houses you just named are second tier houses who would have had a chance to become lord paramount houses or at the weary least be handsomely rewarded, so again greed. Or in the case of the hightowers not piking a side but supporting both so you are always on the winning side. Or in case of the brackens following Bittersteel blindly.

8) this you are making up, there is nothing in the books that suggests that Daeron did not have strong support in the other parts of the realm.

9)yes there were many battles which proves my point on part 8, there was fighting in the riverlands and westerlands because there was strong support there for Daeron, and his supporters fought the rebels.

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8 hours ago, direpupy said:

ever heard of the daughters of baela targaryen, this is what i mean when i say you have a lack of knowledge. Also aside from this, i find it strange that you who was arguing that stormlanders hated dornish are now suggesting aelinor penrose a stormlander has dornish blood and was related to aerys mother, could you at least be consistent either they hate dornish or they don't. I must say that I have more and more trouble taking you seriously because of things like this. And as to the trial baelor told they others to keep his brother and the others away from him until he had taken out the three kingsguard wich is wat happened, so no baelor fought willem thats a fact.

There is nothing wha suggest that hightower daughters of baela married into dondarrions or penroses. Do not write about something what has no proof in books. And yes i am suggesting that penrose could marry martell because there are hundreds of houses in stormlands and some of them would agree to marry with dornishmen, specially to a sister of prince maron. Anti-dornish setiment was common in stormlnads but this does not mean that every single person hated dornish there. And do you say that one baelor could fight three kingsguard at the time, as well as maekar and still badly injure willem who had to be carried from battlefield? 

 

8 hours ago, direpupy said:

some might but not the majority. And Daeron being weak and bookish was an other feeble excuse to hide there greed.

Daeron being weak and bookish is good excuse for them because in vassal kingdom like westeros, relations vassal-king are really important and if king decide to listen maesters and septons, rather than his own vassals it does not bring him popularity.

8 hours ago, direpupy said:

i explained why it made perfect scene for them to keep al that, so now you are just being stubborn because you are running out of actual arguments.

Again you are argumenting my post through my features. And read few times your quote from woiaf and see that it contains everything what i wrote about dornish privileges

 

8 hours ago, direpupy said:

guess you missed the part where the Iron Throne can come and check on the taxes, irregular oversight is still oversight.

Irregular oversight means that they could pay less than other lords what are supposed to pay taxes regularly.

 

8 hours ago, direpupy said:

He did not ignore the crimes or the dead of Daeron I, again baelor had already made peace and granted forgiveness for al that so he could not act on this. Also even if there where losses he had a pretty good argument by saying that peace would mean they would not lose any more family, and what's more if they where so against the treaty with dorne then why did they wait 10 years before doing something about it. So called resentment against dorne was yet again a poor excuse for there greed.

You say that daeron ii could not change forgivness of baelor but could broke promise of his father to appoint fireball?

 

Unlike the Dance of the Dragons, where there was one key point of contention (who would succeed Viserys I), there was no single point for the First Blackfyre Rebellion, and this is key to understanding the Blackfyre cause as a whole. As there were many different causes for the Blackfyre Rebellion, so too were there a multitude of reasons for nobles to support the Black Dragon over the Red.

It’s altogether too simple to dismiss the Blackfyre cause as a group of anti-intellectual warmongers and anti-Dornish racists. Daeron’s treatment of Fireball, for example, might alarm young, martially-skilled lords, as well as personal friends of Fireball and House Ball altogether. Daeron’s lopsided political support in favor of the Dornish too, suggested that far from being a just and fair monarch, he was a cronyist in the same vein as his father; not only did he empower the Dornish far in excess of other regions (giving them not only less oversight on taxation, but the rights to assess their lands themselves), but he gave them overwhelming representation at court. Dorne now represented not the chance for martial glory it had under Daeron I but a very real political threat made mighty by the crown itself, especially to the Reach, which saw little favor in Daeron’s Dornish-heavy court.

World of westeros should not be rated through modern times. Westeros is still quite backward and even in war of five kings robb's bannermen preffered war over peace to take vengeance. 

8 hours ago, direpupy said:

all the houses you just named are second tier houses who would have had a chance to become lord paramount houses or at the weary least be handsomely rewarded, so again greed. Or in the case of the hightowers not piking a side but supporting both so you are always on the winning side. Or in case of the brackens following Bittersteel blindly.

I agree that some of these houses probably wanted to become new overlords of their regions (peakes for example), but you cant dismiss all what i wrote by saying simply greed. In all wars supporters of both sides expected to be rewarded and it is normal. And it wasn't only war of dominance over regions (florents and royces were not listed to participate in this war).

 

8 hours ago, direpupy said:

this you are making up, there is nothing in the books that suggests that Daeron did not have strong support in the other parts of the realm.

It was said that blackfyres won many battles in both reach and westerlands and they couldn't do it if they hadn't much support there.

8 hours ago, direpupy said:

yes there were many battles which proves my point on part 8, there was fighting in the riverlands and westerlands because there was strong support there for Daeron, and his supporters fought the rebels.

If daeron had major support there, he would have no battles to fight as rebels wuld be easily outnumbered, but yet, there was many victories for blackfyres in those regions and fireball even managed to beat damon lannister. 

 

8 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

I'm sure Ran confirmed that Aelinor had Targ blood.

he only confirmed that aelinor was aerys cousin

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1 hour ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

There is nothing wha suggest that hightower daughters of baela married into dondarrions or penroses. Do not write about something what has no proof in books. And yes i am suggesting that penrose could marry martell because there are hundreds of houses in stormlands and some of them would agree to marry with dornishmen, specially to a sister of prince maron. Anti-dornish setiment was common in stormlnads but this does not mean that every single person hated dornish there. And do you say that one baelor could fight three kingsguard at the time, as well as maekar and still badly injure willem who had to be carried from battlefield? 

 

Daeron being weak and bookish is good excuse for them because in vassal kingdom like westeros, relations vassal-king are really important and if king decide to listen maesters and septons, rather than his own vassals it does not bring him popularity.

Again you are argumenting my post through my features. And read few times your quote from woiaf and see that it contains everything what i wrote about dornish privileges

 

Irregular oversight means that they could pay less than other lords what are supposed to pay taxes regularly.

 

You say that daeron ii could not change forgivness of baelor but could broke promise of his father to appoint fireball?

 

Unlike the Dance of the Dragons, where there was one key point of contention (who would succeed Viserys I), there was no single point for the First Blackfyre Rebellion, and this is key to understanding the Blackfyre cause as a whole. As there were many different causes for the Blackfyre Rebellion, so too were there a multitude of reasons for nobles to support the Black Dragon over the Red.

It’s altogether too simple to dismiss the Blackfyre cause as a group of anti-intellectual warmongers and anti-Dornish racists. Daeron’s treatment of Fireball, for example, might alarm young, martially-skilled lords, as well as personal friends of Fireball and House Ball altogether. Daeron’s lopsided political support in favor of the Dornish too, suggested that far from being a just and fair monarch, he was a cronyist in the same vein as his father; not only did he empower the Dornish far in excess of other regions (giving them not only less oversight on taxation, but the rights to assess their lands themselves), but he gave them overwhelming representation at court. Dorne now represented not the chance for martial glory it had under Daeron I but a very real political threat made mighty by the crown itself, especially to the Reach, which saw little favor in Daeron’s Dornish-heavy court.

World of westeros should not be rated through modern times. Westeros is still quite backward and even in war of five kings robb's bannermen preffered war over peace to take vengeance. 

I agree that some of these houses probably wanted to become new overlords of their regions (peakes for example), but you cant dismiss all what i wrote by saying simply greed. In all wars supporters of both sides expected to be rewarded and it is normal. And it wasn't only war of dominance over regions (florents and royces were not listed to participate in this war).

 

It was said that blackfyres won many battles in both reach and westerlands and they couldn't do it if they hadn't much support there.

If daeron had major support there, he would have no battles to fight as rebels wuld be easily outnumbered, but yet, there was many victories for blackfyres in those regions and fireball even managed to beat damon lannister. 

 

he only confirmed that aelinor was aerys cousin

Where going around in circles here so i am am not going to point out al the flaws in this again. I once again strongly suggest you reread the books, but for now i am not to leave this alone since even after repeadetly7 proving you wrong you out of cheer stubbornes  continue to argue a disproven point.

Please take my advice reread and become knowledgeable because right now you are embarrassing yourself.

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4 hours ago, direpupy said:

Where going around in circles here so i am am not going to point out al the flaws in this again. I once again strongly suggest you reread the books, but for now i am not to leave this alone since even after repeadetly7 proving you wrong you out of cheer stubbornes  continue to argue a disproven point.

Please take my advice reread and become knowledgeable because right now you are embarrassing yourself.

You reapeadly only showed that you are unable to argue without insulting another side. If it pleases you, you can think you won. Your inability to consider other opinion than yours is pathetic. And for man who from nowhere comes with theory that dondarrions are connected with targaryens, it is hard to me to respect your word. Goodbye.

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23 minutes ago, Paxter Redwyne said:

You reapeadly only showed that you are unable to argue without insulting another side. If it pleases you, you can think you won. Your inability to consider other opinion than yours is pathetic. And for man who from nowhere comes with theory that dondarrions are connected with targaryens, it is hard to me to respect your word. Goodbye.

I don't think i have won i just gave up on trying to get you to see your errors. which is actually a defeat because i had hoped to have a constructive argument with you, and am sad that that was not possible.

As to the insults, that was never my intention and i am truly sorry if you felt insulted, but you misinterpreting what is say  and feeling insulted about it is really your problem not mine.

I also just realised that i mixed up baela and her twin sister rhaena, and apologise for the confusion.

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A lot of this seems to be missing the point. (Although don't mind me if you enjoy bickering and that's why you're here.)
 
Jousts and history are important in ASOIAF for what they can tell us about the contemporary plot lines. So try to figure out why GRRM would bother mentioning a character and giving him a back story.
 
First, look at the name of Quentyn Ball. Is there a hint in his story about Quentyn Martell? A guy with ambition who (perhaps) chose the wrong path to achieve it?
 
The name Ball, to me, evokes the motif of jugglers. The direwolf ghost and a couple of the fools are identified as jugglers in ASOIAF. (Keep in mind, a fool isn't a literal fool: I believe GRRM's fools represent a person with a foot in life and the other foot in death. They speak in cryptic ways that reveal insights, if only people would understand or take them seriously.) Petyr Baelish also claims that he holds Varys' balls in his hand, if Varys had balls. So Petyr THINKS he is a juggler but he may not be because Varys has given him nothing to juggle.
Anyway, what can you infer about Quentyn Ball from this? Maybe the point is that Aegon IV was a good "juggler" because he knew how to keep Ball in line without giving him any more power than he already had as master at arms. Daeron II was perhaps not a good juggler or - more likely - he had too many things to juggle. So Quentyn Ball got "out of hand" and had to be taken care of by Bloodraven's archers. Bloodraven, as we know, is a great "juggler" and has a foot in both life and death. He took care of Ball, eliminating him along with other rebels.
 
The symbolism continues in Glendon Flowers Ball, but this guy has some more chutzpah than his father had. (I'm still new to this idea and still sorting out the details, but I think there's a pun around whores and horse. Glendon is "half whore" and was raised by whores, so maybe he has jousting skills (horsemanship) that are better than his father's combat skills. It's important tournament symbolism that his big final victory at the Whitewalls tourney is over Daemon II Blackfyre. From the Targ perspective, the balls are "in hand" at this stage of history, not siding with the Blackfyre side. Maybe Glendon has some "horse sense" that his father lacked.
 
As for Ser Quentyn "forcing" his wife to join the Silent Sisters, yeah, everyone in ASOIAF is "grey": they all have something that we might consider to be a character flaw or they make a decision that we think could have gone a different direction. It's possible that the maester who wrote the story of Ser Quentyn was accurate in saying that he "forced" his wife to join the silent sisters. If GRRM was basing this vignette on real medieval history, however, highborn women sometimes took religious orders on purpose because they could achieve a degree of freedom from the servitude of marriage and (life threatening) childbearing that were otherwise the expectation. It was also a way to get some education. Ser Quentyn's wife may have loved him so much that she wanted him to achieve his ambition of joining the Kingsguard, so she stepped aside to clear his path. Or maybe she thought he was a blowhard and she couldn't wait to make an honorable exit from the marriage.
 
Back on the symbolism bandwagon, joining the Silent Sisters made Ser Quentyn's wife also the "wife of the Stranger." So GRRM may have been using this as a way to signal the reader that Ser Quentyn had gone over to the side of death when he was denied his ambition of joining the Kingsguard. In what little we know of him, we have clues that his son was the son of whores / horse, and his wife was the wife of The Stranger (death). So the badass label might be very applicable for a father / husband who kept company with the likes of these.
 
That's my two cents (pennies) based on an attempt to puzzle out the subtext. You can argue about the motives for the Blackfyre Rebellions, but I think a lot of the point of including them in the books is to make us think about the definition of a son and heir: what does it mean to be someone's son, to kill someone's son, to be the "true" descendant, to carry the family sword? This is true of the Daeron / Daemon conflict as well as the Quentyn Ball arc. The details of the motives may or may not be important, but you miss the larger point if you focus on them without looking at the subtext.
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So if the mad king promised Rossart that he could burn down kings landing, should rhaegar then be bound by it? 

Aegon 4th was a moron. He possibly tried to delegitimize his son for petty reasons. Why would Daeron then appoint one of Aegons men to protect him and his family.

I also agree in my opinion that most of the rebels did what they did mostly out of greed. I even think that was Daemons main motivation as well 

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