poll How would you rate episode 601?

[Daemon I Blackfyre]

2 hours ago, Justin Danford said:

Most worrying, I feel as if the trend of the remainder of this show will be: 

- invented plot-line, butchered plot-line, boring plot-line

- actual interesting plot-device from source material akwardly spoiled among the muck

- invented plot-line, butchered plot-line, boring plot-line

...rated a 2

That is what I fear as well. It'll be enough to partly ruin the remaining books and it'll be more than enough to make the show bad in its last seasons. I don't even think that having access to a fully completed "The Winds of Winter" could help D&D saving most of the plot-lines by now. What a mess...

[Daske]

44 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

No, it boils down to this. Good writing and bad writing. The books are well written, the show is not. Sure you can find some holes in the books if you nitpick it but the holes on the show are glaring. I'm not talking about book v show, I'm looking at the show as it's own entity, and the writing is just rubbish. I'm not complaining about Areo getting killed easily, I'm talking about the total improbability that a bunch of psycho bastard girls could take over Dorne so easily. I'm talking about why they didn't just kill Mycella and Trystane, and Jaime too for that matter, while they were still in Dorne? Why let them on the ship, poison one before the ship has left sight of the Dornish coast and then ride?/sail? all the way to Kings Landing to kill the other on the hope that he will still be accessible in the cabin of his ship and not in say locked away in a Black Cell instead? Are you really attempting to defend that?

The show is nonsense. 3 is generous.

No, it boils down to opinion of what is good writing and what is not. You don't like it fine, but you don't speak for everyone else on this matter. But this has been argued to death since day one.

Many of us see some issues with some plots but generally speaking don't think they are major issues. We can look past them or move quickly on because there is always a better scene around the corner. It's ok to like stuff that isn't perfect!

And most complaints are hugely exaggerated. "Areo getting killed easily". One person, however big and experienced, was backstabbed by a trained killer he had no reason to think was a threat whilst surrounded by other guards clearly in on the act. That's why it's a betrayal, no one expects it. Not so strange. You may not like it happening this way, but it certainly could happen. But no, it has to be 'rubbish'.

The boat murder is overly convoluted yes, but it's very easy to see some options if you don't expect to be spoon-fed. For example, much easier to kickstart a war if you tell your people that the Lannisters killed their prince while a guest. And his true love bride for falling in love with him. Or something along those lines.

They may or may not be the case, but at least allow the story to pan out before condemning it. A lot of what people call plotholes in the show are explained later on, but by then people have forgotten they dissed it as they are too busy moaning about something else in the latest episode.

 

[three-eyed monkey]

8 minutes ago, Daske said:

No, it boils down to opinion of what is good writing and what is not. You don't like it fine, but you don't speak for everyone else on this matter. But this has been argued to death since day one.

Many of us see some issues with some plots but generally speaking don't think they are major issues. We can look past them or move quickly on because there is always a better scene around the corner. It's ok to like stuff that isn't perfect!

And most complaints are hugely exaggerated. "Areo getting killed easily". One person, however big and experienced, was backstabbed by a trained killer he had no reason to think was a threat whilst surrounded by other guards clearly in on the act. That's why it's a betrayal, no one expects it. Not so strange. You may not like it happening this way, but it certainly could happen. But no, it has to be 'rubbish'.

The boat murder is overly convoluted yes, but it's very easy to see some options if you don't expect to be spoon-fed. For example, much easier to kickstart a war if you tell your people that the Lannisters killed their prince while a guest. And his true love bride for falling in love with him. Or something along those lines.

They may or may not be the case, but at least allow the story to pan out before condemning it. A lot of what people call plotholes in the show are explained later on, but by then people have forgotten they dissed it as they are too busy moaning about something else in the latest episode.

 

I'm not speaking for anyone else on the matter. I gave the show a rating of 3, not because I'm butthurt about the books, but because in my opinion the writing is very poor in the show. Storytelling is an art that has been refined over millennia and while everyone is entitled to their opinion, quality of writing is actually quite measurable by a number of metrics. Agents, editors, publishers, critics, academics, and indeed readers, do this every day.

If it is your opinion that the show is well written, that's fine, rate it appropriately. We've obviously got different standards.

And please, I'm not complaining about Areo being killed or a mute direwolf howling or any of that nitpicky stuff. I'm talking about things like plausibility, character motives, what's driving the plot, etc. In my opinion, the show is weak in all these areas, which comes down to the writing.

 

[Daske]

2 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I'm not speaking for anyone else on the matter. I gave the show a rating of 3, not because I'm butthurt about the books, but because in my opinion the writing is very poor in the show. Storytelling is an art that has been refined over millennia and while everyone is entitled to their opinion, quality of writing is actually quite measurable by a number of metrics. Agents, editors, publishers, critics, academics, and indeed readers, do this every day.

If it is your opinion that the show is well written, that's fine, rate it appropriately. We've obviously got different standards.

And please, I'm not complaining about Areo being killed or a mute direwolf howling or any of that nitpicky stuff. I'm talking about things like plausibility, character motives, what's driving the plot, etc. In my opinion, the show is weak in all these areas, which comes down to the writing.

 

It's not about 'standards'. It's about being able to adjust the way you watch things based on the style of storytelling - there is no true linear scale of good and bad writing. And also about how to manage expectations when you have the existing books creating preconceived notions. The thing is, how can you judge it as bad if it isn't being written for you? There are some people that don't like the Sopranos, does that make it badly written? There was a long article by Margaret Atwood last year. on why she loves GoT, I doubt her standards are 'lower'' than yours.

What's interesting in what you say about the metrics as generally speaking GoT scores high on those metrics. And there were massive threads in the past where those that don't like the show came down highly on the opinion of discounting them, e.g. critics ratings are just another opinion, Transformers was popular but crap etc.

But anyway, going off topic on ratings thread, sorry.

[three-eyed monkey]

Margaret Atwoods standards are obviously lower than mine, and I'm not just talking about writing.

If there were no true linear scale of good and bad writing then there would be no such thing as a classic. Not everyone will agree with the scale but it does exist. Good writers are good writers because they know what works and what does not. Of course it won't work for everybody, it never does, but if it doesn't work for a really good share of your readers then you're probably not writing very well.

You're right to say Transformers was popular but crap. They are two separate things. Doing well at the box office is one thing, advertising and hype have a lot to do with that, but when you look at the characters, plot, etc., it is easy to see that the writing is crap. That doesn't mean there aren't people with lower standards or perhaps an emotional attachment that think it is great and will defend it come what may, but the consensus is that it's crap.

Anyway, In my opinion it's a 3.

Edited April 26, 2016 by three-eyed monkey
sp.

[flare]

1 hour ago, Daske said:

 

And most complaints are hugely exaggerated. "Areo getting killed easily". One person, however big and experienced, was backstabbed by a trained killer he had no reason to think was a threat whilst surrounded by other guards clearly in on the act. That's why it's a betrayal, no one expects it. Not so strange. You may not like it happening this way, but it certainly could happen. But no, it has to be 'rubbish'.

The boat murder is overly convoluted yes, but it's very easy to see some options if you don't expect to be spoon-fed. For example, much easier to kickstart a war if you tell your people that the Lannisters killed their prince while a guest. And his true love bride for falling in love with him. Or something along those lines.

 

 

Other than the fact that the Sand Snakes just recently snuck into the palace,  tried to kidnap the sister of the king and comitted treason? He souldn't be atleast wary of them? He doesn't even react before he drops dead on the spot. Also, you want to tell me that he cannot tell that all his men have such a contempt for Doran to commit treason? Men he spent the last years possible decades with day in day out? Not a single soul actually thinks maybe our ruler shouldn't die for missed petty revenge? Not one ounce honor in any of them? 

What is the point of having the other two Snakes in KL? They either have the guards already on their side or not. There is no way they can sneak up onto the ship without anyone knowing on the inside. Let the guards kill the prince. There is also no reason for doing any of that in the first place. Who is going to doubt you when there is no one to speak against you? 
 

[Daske]

I'm suggesting a maybe something along those lines, not definitely that, so no point arguing details. Just saying that people are so quick to judge. I suspect there is more to the story of them being there, and more may be explained later. Happy to agree that the Sandsnakes scene didn't work very well if nothing else is forthcoming.

 

[Diehard_si]

8

It was on for a 9 until the Dorne scene. A solid start.

[Daske]

24 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

... That doesn't mean there aren't people with lower standards or perhaps an emotional attachment that think it is great and will defend it come what may, but the consensus is that it's crap.

But that's not true at all is it. Even on this most rabid of sites the most common vote for the latest episode was a 7/10.

[three-eyed monkey]

1 minute ago, Daske said:

But that's not true at all is it. Even on this most rabid of sites the most common vote for the latest episode was a 7/10.

I was talking about Transformers.

[Daske]

30 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I was talking about Transformers.

Lol, ok, we agree on that for sure!

So annoying, Transformers gets sequel after sequel, Dredd gets none. Sigh.

 

[Lord Spark of House Spark]

Average comes out at 5.35 out of 10 at the time of posting, which is about what I would give it. (5.94 if you discount the 1s and 10s)

I liked the wall, and Dany. I thought that the banter between the bloodriders and the Khal was realistic, although why Dany wasn't raped or recognised was a bit out of character

I think if the Sand snakes had not been there at all then the average would have been a lot higher, that story line is appalling, I really can't see the thinking behind it and nothing about Dorne makes any sense to me.

I wondered where the dogs had gone too, but even when they were on screen they seemed quite affable. How did the Dreadfort man know that Brienne was a woman when she was riding through the trees dressed in a man's armour with a man's build.

Another question, am I mistaken in thinking that Davos was given the title Lord in the books when he became Stannis's Hand?, was he only ever a Ser in the show? It doesn't really matter, just wondering, because I thought it was a subtle dig when Mel called him Ser, But then Alliser did the same. perhaps Subtle is too much to ask

Tyrion and Varys didn't seem to gel with their story, each other, or any kind of realistic version of the situation they are in. how many Westerosi Dwarfs are there in Mereen that he can go from sitting at the Khaleesi's side in the pits to walking around unrecognised by any Harpy's sons because he has got a slightly different outfit on. Varys is supposed to be a master of disguise isn't he?

I also didn't like the way that Arya's training has gone from being a quasi kung fu "hardship makes you stronger grasshopper" type of thing, to her just being bullied by the completely unwaiflike waif, who clearly harbours some undefined hatred for Arya, judging from the way she seems to be enjoying herself.

 

[The Killer Snark]

Since Areo has been mentioned, I have to admit I was disappointed not just with how easily dispatched he was, but also with how throwaway the character was, given that D and D had a chance to actually design a character on top of the cardboard cutout he is in the novels. Completely missed opportunity, there, as was the treatment of Trystane. And it does make no sense whatsoever that a coup by Ellaria could ever be greeted warmly by a public that did not exactly despise Doran as a leader even though his brother was held in more respect. If I'd been more bothered, I'd have given the episode a 7. I don't expect anything except an uncanonical diversion from the show version of Dorne about now. The Dornish stuff isn't that interesting in the books anyway. What I really resented was season 4's negation of the Kingsmoot and the appalling Asha (Yara) at the Dreadfort shite.

Edited April 26, 2016 by The Killer Snark

[Holymoly]

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I'm not speaking for anyone else on the matter. I gave the show a rating of 3, not because I'm butthurt about the books, but because in my opinion the writing is very poor in the show.

Let's be honest GRRM's writing isn't exactly of the highest quality either. The first book was damn good and could have been left at that. The ideas are good but the entire story creaks beneath the weight of the number of characters being described. I've been reading the books for the last few years purely in order to get to the end. The TV series is enjoyable spectacle but is no great art form let's not kid ourselves.

[darksellsword]

Quote

 

I gave it a 4. I would've rated this episode much higher if it weren't for the disaster that is the Dorne story arch, my main problem with this episode is that apart from the Brienne scene it is boring, the dialogue this episode was atrocious, plot holes everywhere borefest.

[dbunting]

1 hour ago, Holymoly said:

Let's be honest GRRM's writing isn't exactly of the highest quality either. The first book was damn good and could have been left at that. The ideas are good but the entire story creaks beneath the weight of the number of characters being described. I've been reading the books for the last few years purely in order to get to the end. The TV series is enjoyable spectacle but is no great art form let's not kid ourselves.

See I tend to agree with you. The first three books are much better. Then it seems like he realized how big of a world he created and each needed to be included in the books and it became overwhelming. To me the whole Dorne plot line could have been left out. I mean, in the first couple books it is barely mentioned and those are the better books. I think he got himself in trouble writing wise and Mereen and Dorne are the result of it. Those two areas were the worst for me in the books, that and Briennes wandering adventures. The show can't even make it better, they possibly could have cut the entire thing too but didn't, cuz , you know, bad pussy had to be spoken!

I love the show and don't mind that others don't, I will still watch it, twice per week since I re watch on Mondays. I gave it a 7, would've been 6.5 if able to. Had Dorne not existed it would be 8 or so.

[RhaenysBee]

6 hours ago, Jedi Renee said:

 

Haha I do think he isn't dead (like the hound )

Oh please no. He has to be dead. I was actually hoping after the trailer that he would be one of the flayed corpses the Boltons burn and that would put the cream on the cake and finalize his death. 

Update: just came across an interview where he's said to "not return", so he should be dead dead. 

Edited April 26, 2016 by RhaeBee

[Greg B]

I gave it a grudging 7, with allowance for it being a setup episode. There was at least one great scene (Brienne, Sansa, Pod and Theon), some great acting (Headey), and in general it looks like the main characters are in position for the season to do interesting things, even if they didn't do many of them in this episode. The reveal at the end was fantastic.

All things Dorne were bad, with the exception of House Martell being extinguished, and that only because it gives us some hope there will be no more Dorne. I expect to be disappointed on that score, but I cling to the hope granted me by a dagger in the chest and a spear in the face. I read in an interview that D&D very nearly cut Dorne entirely, and I wish they had -- for that matter, I wish Martin had. The Red Viper was cool. He waited fifteen years for revenge, seized his chance, and got his balloon popped. Story arc over. But noooo...

[Sand11751]

I'm glad it's back, pleased for Sansa and Brienne, surprised at Melisandre, etc. but some things were stupid.

Castle Black - the NW members killed Jon and left his body in the courtyard, despite their awareness of wights starting with the ones that attacked Mormont and Jon Snow. I would have assumed they wouldn't have taken any chances the body could reanimate and just burned him right after, WHILE KNOWING this would affect what I hope will happen later with Jon. Sam and his theory about how long reanimation takes weren't there to help, so I'll assume that NW meeting took place in under an hour after the murder.

King's Landing - Cersei calmly accepted Myrcella's death because she just knew this was going to happen due of Meggy's prophecy. When has she ever calmly accepted anything? Bat-shit crazy Cersei didn't show up. Yet. Or is this humanization of Cersei the writers are going for post-walk of shame?

Dorne - While I still want to pretend none of it has ever happened, Doran as ineffectual fool and Ellaria as vengeful assassin fits the show-only narrative, but just feels so wrong. The beauty of Dorne in the books was Doran's admittedly long view of the game. I hope we never see Dorne again.

Dany - I don't care how many horses encircled Dany and trod over the same spot leaving a lighter patch of green encircled by a darker one; Jorah just happened to find the ring? And none of the Dothraki ever heard of that silver-haired chick Khal Drogo married? Yet they take her word she was a khalessi?

[PromethiumWings]

Alright, I've been thinking about this a bit and I gave it an 8/10. This might sound preposterous to some, but hear me out, I believe that I can make a rather strong case.

Everything has to be compared with the alternative, here being other television shows. At 10/10, as good television can realistically get (with some obvious slack given since nothing is perfect), I would place the first season of True Detective. 1/10 is the worst television imaginable, we are comparing single episodes so say 40 minutes of a fat, naked hobo masturbating to anime while eating cheetos and groaning loudly. That is the scale, it is now firmly anchored in both ends and we can do some honest comparisons.

We are living in a world where the other major fantasy shows that I have seen and that are based on books are easy to count. Basically, we have Legend of The Seeker and The Shannara Chronicles. The former is very bad, though we can make it worse by introducing the dude I mentioned above as a guest star. So give an average episode of it a 3 or 4 out of 10, and an average episode of the Shannara chronicles 5 or 6 out of 10. Having done this, I personally can't put this episode of GoT at a lower score than 7, since I consider it to be better than all or most of the episodes of those two shows. Now for some fine-tuning, compare it to the first episode of every other season, S1 and S4 had better premiers but S2, S3 and S5 probably didn't so this one gets an 8.

I don't see how anyone give it a 1, since it obviously could have been much worse, even realistically speaking and not trying once more to introduce the previously mentioned forearm-exercising guy. Imaigne if there had been more scenes in Dorne, resembling the worst excesses of last season, like the "you want a nice girl but you need a bad pussey"-comment, and then imagine if Melisandre had banged Davos to birth another shadow-monster to take out Allister. Even with 1 being the wors and 0 the best of this particular show, we saw worse things last season. Remember the Bolton family dinner?