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Risto

Discussing Sansa XX: Run, Sansa, run...

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1 minute ago, Blushingfae said:

Why did she need Theon's approval ? And I agree, Sophie and Alfie are outstanding.

Asking his opinion isn't the same as needing his approval. A questioning look to gather more data to base a decision upon seems appropriate. Whatever else, Theon's earned some trust again.

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My biggest problem with this scene was that for years now, producers are walking between two versions of Sansa, as they please. The first one is book Sansa, 13-year-old child, naturally frightened and in need of guidance and far more mature Sansa (what Sansa would become in books with her age). And that would all be OK if there is some natural process to it, but it's like they have no idea which Sansa they are supposed to be writing about. They have to make the choice because this back and forth just with many other characters is becoming old. 

I would agree that from everything we have seen in this episode - Dorne, Wall, retrograded Jaime, unknown silver-haired queen Daenerys is supposed to be, Arya's Matt Murdock origin story, this one actually made the most sense. And that just speaks a lot of how abysmal is the writing without Martin's prose to back on.

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The thing about Sansa's forgetting words is like she wasn't even able to make up anything. Like, for example, any catholic can take a confession or perform a baptism in an emergency. You think I know the "right" words? Seriously, I only have to go and say something like "I baptize/absolve you in name of the father, blah". It's the same. Sansa is "supposed" to be smart and know her courtesies: even if she didn't remember the PROPER words, she should know something, gosh...

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7 hours ago, Risto said:

Exactly... And to have Pod remind her, of all the people... God, almighty...

The editing and writing was abysmal. For a split of a second I caught myself thinking "She will warg the dog" and then I realized what I was watching.

Why was it necessary exactly? What did it say to us about Sansa or the situation? What were D$D trying to tell us? That Pods apprenticeship to St Tyrion is still as important as his new found martial prowess? That Sansa is forgetful or ignorant? It just seemed so out of chatacter and unnecessary to me.

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4 hours ago, Arya_Stormborn said:

In real life, she would totally be dead from hypothermia. Legit. I can't suspend disbelief on this one. Also, what happened to the dogs during the fight scene? Nothing makes sense.

I am also wondering what happened to the dogs.  Their disappearance ruined this scene for me.

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That she stuttered for a second, I don't mind at all. Didn't diminish her character one bit (says me), but promoted Pod from "a prop" to "an extra who has a line", he needed that.

That she looked at Theon for - approval? input? consent? - that, OTOH, was a bad, bad decision from the writers. She should have made that decision fully on her own. This way, however, she come out like a dyed-in-the-wool Damsel in Distress, with no agency on her own. Enough of that already.

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1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

That she looked at Theon for - approval? input? consent? - that, OTOH, was a bad, bad decision from the writers. 

A wise ruler takes input from his/her advisers. If you don't count the dogs, Theon is the closest to that and is available.

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To be honest, I think a lot of folks here are being a touch hard on Sansa.  Her forgetting words to the courtesy speech is akin to Chief Justice John Roberts back in 2009, forgetting the words to the inauguration oath given to Prez Obama. IIRC Roberts got a do-over to make the affair official.

It's only tits and dragons after all.

 

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Appart for the dogs-dissaperance thing, i really liked the rest. Theon was like a brother for ther  now he has gained a little bit of redemption. He went to the hands of the Boltons without blinking just to try to save her, even knowing that it would meant a horrible death for him, and it was wise for her to recognize that. He was her brother and she needs that again. Making her forget her lines, make her human also. After all the jumping, running, almost captured again, rescued in the last minute in "a couple of hours?" even the pope would have forgetten his lines. Pod's situation wasn't the same, he has just helped (as better as he can) to rescue Theon and Sansa, hi is sort of an hero, he was an expert in sigils, probably he is an expert in all lord-related things. For me it was natural that she forgot the lines, but still he remembered.

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At some point Sansa must confront Theon about his (assumed) murder of her little brothers and of the other innocent people at Winterfell.  When she learns that her brothers are probably still alive, I assume she will want to search for them.  Perhaps with Nymeria's help?

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Will Sansa make it to Castle Black?  She'll likely send Brienne after Arya based on promo of episode 2 so it will be interesting where she ends up.

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So once again Sansa cowers in fear while everyone else risks their lives to save her. Not once did she lift a finger to help herself.

Strength and empowerment, yep, okay. Meh. She's not Warden of the North material at all. Never has been, never will be. 

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1 hour ago, messem said:

A wise ruler takes input from his/her advisers. If you don't count the dogs, Theon is the closest to that and is available.

There really was no danger of anyone thinking "Sansa's much too independent for her own good here".

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41 minutes ago, Numantia said:

Appart for the dogs-dissaperance thing, i really liked the rest. Theon was like a brother for ther  now he has gained a little bit of redemption. He went to the hands of the Boltons without blinking just to try to save her, even knowing that it would meant a horrible death for him, and it was wise for her to recognize that. He was her brother and she needs that again. Making her forget her lines, make her human also. After all the jumping, running, almost captured again, rescued in the last minute in "a couple of hours?" even the pope would have forgetten his lines. Pod's situation wasn't the same, he has just helped (as better as he can) to rescue Theon and Sansa, hi is sort of an hero, he was an expert in sigils, probably he is an expert in all lord-related things. For me it was natural that she forgot the lines, but still he remembered.

I agree

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42 minutes ago, Numantia said:

Appart for the dogs-dissaperance thing, i really liked the rest. Theon was like a brother for ther  now he has gained a little bit of redemption. He went to the hands of the Boltons without blinking just to try to save her, even knowing that it would meant a horrible death for him, and it was wise for her to recognize that. He was her brother and she needs that again. Making her forget her lines, make her human also. After all the jumping, running, almost captured again, rescued in the last minute in "a couple of hours?" even the pope would have forgetten his lines. Pod's situation wasn't the same, he has just helped (as better as he can) to rescue Theon and Sansa, hi is sort of an hero, he was an expert in sigils, probably he is an expert in all lord-related things. For me it was natural that she forgot the lines, but still he remembered.

 

Sansa kept Jon at arms length because he was a bastard. Do we have any reason to think she'd be closer to Theon? Someone who isn't even a half brother but just a ward of Winterfell? I think it's an extreme stretch to say he is "like a brother." 

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1 minute ago, The Northern Scholar said:

 

Sansa kept Jon at arms length because he was a bastard. Do we have any reason to think she'd be closer to Theon? Someone who isn't even a half brother but just a ward of Winterfell? I think it's an extreme stretch to say he is "like a brother." 

Maybe in losing her entire family she's trying to kling to the closest she can find. I have no doubt that Sansa is already considering Jon her brother, Theon aswell. After the shit she's seen I don't think she's so picky about blood relatives anymore (Lysa you know). She just wants someone to trust and love.

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4 minutes ago, Daughter of Death said:

Maybe in losing her entire family she's trying to kling to the closest she can find. I have no doubt that Sansa is already considering Jon her brother, Theon aswell. After the shit she's seen I don't think she's so picky about blood relatives anymore (Lysa you know). She just wants someone to trust and love.

We have absolutely no reason to believe any of this. Alayne very clearly has moments of reflection where she begins reassessing what it means to be a high born woman versus the experience of a bastard. There are moments where she thinks fondly of Jon as her only remaining family. Nothing the show has given us on screen indicates Show!Sansa has experienced a similar shift in thought.

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What bothers me is what we see so often on tv shows.  If someone has to be brave, it is almost always the guy.  Surely there is a writing course on how to make more than one character in a scene brave or kind or thoughtful, especially when the two characters are male and female.  There was NO reason why Sansa could not have remembered that oath by herself.  Stuttering or pauses make perfect sense.  But needing prodding from Pod makes me lose heart for Sansa.

Oddly, Sansa is not one of my favorite characters, but she is the one I have hopes for.  This episode dimmed my hopes.  

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8 minutes ago, The Northern Scholar said:

Nothing the show has given us on screen indicates Show!Sansa has experienced a similar shift in thought.

True. But Show!Sansa was never that cold towards Jon as BooK!Sansa was. Might be that I simply can't remember it but I think she never was.

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2 minutes ago, messem said:

True. But Show!Sansa was never that cold towards Jon as BooK!Sansa was. Might be that I simply can't remember it but I think she never was.

I don't think that was ever a point explored in depth on the show to be honest. And I do confess that this is an issue of particular relevance for me. Upon rereads of books 5 and 6, I have a much greater appreciation for Martin's exploration of identity and the parallels he makes between characters. Alayne's growing understanding of Jon is one of my favorite aspects of her arc so I am disappointed to see it dropped.

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