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Risto

Discussing Sansa XX: Run, Sansa, run...

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Brienne reciting the same vow as she did with Catelyn was a great scene, also Sansa needed help from Pod because she forgot what it means to be a Lady.

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1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

Oh I have no doubt she's going to do another 180 when she becomes the boss.ass.bitch according to Sophie Turner.

Why is she is worse shape than Theon?  And the "effect" of her marriage is to make her fear cold water more than her abusive husband?  And to forget the words to the oath of service?  

It's not a huge deal since Show Sansa has been extremely stupid since last season, but the show keeps talking about her being empowered and yet continues to show her as too weak and passive to even attempt to stay alive.  She's a damsel in distress, she's not taking any type of control.

Sansa as a character has always been a play on the old stories about princesses and knights that helped create some of our modern stories like Disney princesses. 

I don't think she is in worse shape than Theon. It is just that Theon has been thinking about escaping for a long time and knows just how far he needs to go to survive. Which he is desperate to do. Plus Theon is way more skilled in this than Sansa would be. No amount of character development changes any of that and it would be totally bizarre if she just magically learned all of these skills and character traits. 

Sansa's story is more about her finding what she is good at and I think judging her story arc will depend much more on that than her ability to run through the woods. 

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9 minutes ago, Stangler said:

 It is just that Theon has been thinking about escaping for a long time and knows just how far he needs to go to survive.

No he hasn't. The very thought of trying to escape sent him into terrified fits.

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So she should show no effects whatsoever over the trauma she has suffered at the hands of Ramsey?  I don't get it. I thought one of the complaints the last few months was that D&D were going to totally forget this and have Sansa go into full boss ass bitch mode right out of the gate?

You're creating this exaggerated dichotomy that no one else is putting forth. No one has come close to suggesting she should be in "full boss ass bitch mode" but rather that, after 5 seasons and numerous promises that Sansa will develop and show strength, it would be nice to actually see her take more initiative in her own escape (which she did last episode; she was prepared to die rather than let Ramsay do anything to her again. Why did D&D totally forget this?) rather than having to be led by Theon the whole time. She could have been more willing to cross the river, referencing her coming down from the Vale in Feast, or helped lead Theon along since he should in theory be just as weak.

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18 hours ago, greensleeves said:

I object to calling this thread being called 'Run, Sansa, run'. Better titles:

'Run, Jeynsa, run'

'Run, Sophie Turner, run'

'Run, Fansa, run'

This character is no longer Sansa.

This made me spit out my drink and laugh.  I vote for Jeynsa. 

I don't care for either Book Sansa or Show Sansa, never have, but I also didn't really have a problem with her forgetting her lines.  

Same as a few people have stated, what struck me the most is where in the seven hells were the dogs?  We did not see them be killed, we did not see them run off, we did not see some mystical beast eat them.  They just were poof! gone.  That is poor writing, especially when the dogs were made so important to start with. 

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I wish Locke was still alive. He was the Bolton's best hunter. Before he was killed by Hodor back in season 4, I always imagined a reunion scene between him and Brienne. I always wanted to see Brienne kicking Locke's ass.

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14 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

The thing about Sansa's forgetting words is like she wasn't even able to make up anything. Like, for example, any catholic can take a confession or perform a baptism in an emergency. You think I know the "right" words? Seriously, I only have to go and say something like "I baptize/absolve you in name of the father, blah". It's the same. Sansa is "supposed" to be smart and know her courtesies: even if she didn't remember the PROPER words, she should know something, gosh...

But those vows aren't something you make up in the spot. There is a likely ancient formula to that, and they do mean something - "You will always have a place by my fire" in the North, in winter... those are not empty words. That's the commitment House Stark has to the Mountain Clans that, in exchange for obedience, when winter comes, they'll all be welcome to take shelter at Wintertown.

And Sansa was never educated to learn the proper words because it wasn't her role to take those oaths. She just heard it by being in the same room as Ned and Joffrey saying those words. OTOH, Pod dreams about the day he'll be able to give that oath to someone, so it makes sense he knows it by hard.

10 hours ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

So once again Sansa cowers in fear while everyone else risks their lives to save her. Not once did she lift a finger to help herself.

Strength and empowerment, yep, okay. Meh. She's not Warden of the North material at all. Never has been, never will be. 

Sansa is never going to be a warrior queen. How is that going to affect any power bid she might make to her father' seat, well, maybe we'll see it.

9 hours ago, lakin1013 said:

What bothers me is what we see so often on tv shows.  If someone has to be brave, it is almost always the guy. 

I do remember something about Brienne riding to the rescue

8 hours ago, tallTale said:

 

What I'm curious about now is where will Sansa go? She's north of winterfell I believe, so that leaves out riverrun. She has horses now, so she could make a break for Castle black, or Pike, or hell even Dragonstone. if Stannis is revealed to be alive, he could help set her up at dragonstone.

Based on the episode, Castle Black, where hopefully, she'll execute all the mutineers who killed Jon and will hang their entrails from a Hearth Tree. Realistically and based on the trailer, to Bear Island.

7 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Oh I have no doubt she's going to do another 180 when she becomes the boss.ass.bitch according to Sophie Turner.

Why is she is worse shape than Theon?  And the "effect" of her marriage is to make her fear cold water more than her abusive husband? 

That cold water is lethal. Even if she survives the crossing, unless she gets by a fire and removes all her damp clothes, she should die. Ramsay, OTOH, is also lethal, but being hesitant is wise. Maybe there was another way to escape that doesn't include suicide by hypothermia.

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Lol. People criticizing Sansa for stammering her lines, hesitating to go in the icy river, and not fighting. People really have quick judgement.

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The only thing I wished for in the icy river scene was for both Sansa & Theon to lift their heavy cloaks above their heads/around their shoulders so they wouldn't get icy-wet & even heavier when they continued their run.. *sigh*

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19 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

They survived hypothermia the same way they survived that jump, in good enough shape to run, I expect.

I don't mind their surviving the jump, as unrealistic as that is, because it's plot-necessary. They had to get out of Winterfell somehow. But the river crossing was both utterly unrealistic and extraneous to the plot. If Brienne was just going to ride up and save them anyway, then why couldn't she have done that before they crossed the river? Also, how did Brienne and the Boltons get across the river, anyway? It would take some doing to get a horse to cross a river like that.

This scene really bothered me because it was like "Oh, here's this terrible danger from the cold that might kill them," and then five minutes later the danger is magically over and everyone's fine, without any attempt on their part to build a fire or any other explanation for how they survived that crossing. How can we take ever take the supposed dangers in this show seriously if we know that the creators won't hesitate to just snap their fingers and make the dangers go away?

Sansa forgetting the words to the oath didn't bother me at all. That was actually the most realistic part of the whole scene. People forget words to things all the time -- their wedding vows, the Pledge of Allegiance, lyrics on American Idol. It happens all the time in stressful/unusual situations. 

I have no problem with Sansa's story arc, but I do have a problem with deus ex machina outcomes to unrealistic fight scenes.

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Once again.  The problem is not that someone forgot words to a vow.  The problem is the longstanding removal of Sansa's strength from the show, and without any sort of offset, the longstanding stupidification of Sansa.  

Seriously, tell me one strength that show Sansa has. Not one strength she might have used once.  A consistent character trait, like Ned's honor/defense of the innocent, Dany's savior complex, Doran's desire for peace, show Cersei's love of her children, etc.  Other than naivete, there is nothing, because they have stripped it from her.

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I dont mind Sansa stammering and forgetting her lines. When would she ever have to make that kind of oath and have someone other than at the moment Theon legitimately desire to help her stay safe. The quickness in which they were found by both Boltons and Brienne was really weird, like there was no purpose going over the water. I like Sansa to a certain extent but I shudder to think how she'd turn into some badd ass bitch as Sophie calls her. She'd have to do some serious killing for that to happen.

Perhaps she hits up Last Hearth and finds Rickon? I wonder if someone there would try to turn her into the Queen in the North as Robb's heir because Rickon is too young? I would say that theres no way Sansa and Co. would make it to Castle Black to take care of business, but the teleporting skills on this show are amazing

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17 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

Once again.  The problem is not that someone forgot words to a vow.  The problem is the longstanding removal of Sansa's strength from the show, and without any sort of offset, the longstanding stupidification of Sansa.  

Seriously, tell me one strength that show Sansa has. Not one strength she might have used once.  A consistent character trait, like Ned's honor/defense of the innocent, Dany's savior complex, Doran's desire for peace, show Cersei's love of her children, etc.  Other than naivete, there is nothing, because they have stripped it from her.

Sansa's portrayal across the different seasons has been inconsistent, but I'd point to resilience, which is also true in the books. She has also shown bravery, for instance, standing in front of Myranda and waiting for her to shoot her. But bravery =/= fighting skills. Trying to get involved in that melee or running away and making noise isn't cowardice.

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19 minutes ago, JonSnow4President said:

Once again.  The problem is not that someone forgot words to a vow.  The problem is the longstanding removal of Sansa's strength from the show, and without any sort of offset, the longstanding stupidification of Sansa.  

Seriously, tell me one strength that show Sansa has. Not one strength she might have used once.  A consistent character trait, like Ned's honor/defense of the innocent, Dany's savior complex, Doran's desire for peace, show Cersei's love of her children, etc.  Other than naivete, there is nothing, because they have stripped it from her.

Well, no, she's not consistent. She's a dynamic character, in transition from pretty pretty princess to (we hope, eventually) ice queen powerhouse. What that looks like on the outside is that she's one thing one day and she's something else the next. That's pretty normal for teenage people, actually. Note that the same is also true for Arya - she can't seem to make up her mind whether she's "no one" or a Stark of Winterfell.

In real life, no one is dominated by a single character trait the way that Ned, Dany, etc. are. I'd say that Sansa's behavior is more realistic than theirs, actually.

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8 minutes ago, Arya_Stormborn said:

Well, no, she's not consistent. She's a dynamic character, in transition from pretty pretty princess to (we hope, eventually) ice queen powerhouse. What that looks like on the outside is that she's one thing one day and she's something else the next. That's pretty normal for teenage people, actually. Note that the same is also true for Arya - she can't seem to make up her mind whether she's "no one" or a Stark of Winterfell.

In real life, no one is dominated by a single character trait the way that Ned, Dany, etc. are. I'd say that Sansa's behavior is more realistic than theirs, actually.

I'm not saying absolutely dominated.  Fluctuation is normal, with a consistent (or developing) character core. Ned increasingly plays the political game, but at the core he is still the same loyal man who abhors the killing of innocents. 

So Sansa going from the ultimate submissive early to gradually becoming a player would be called CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.  Sansa being ultra submissive, being more submissive, then being an even more naive girl than before, then suddenly lying to protect Littlefinger like she's playing the game, then going back to being an ultra submissive, is not character development.  It's an actor there reading lines.  So when she suddenly becomes a "boss ass bitch" leading Stark loyalists (who materialize out of nowhere)  against the Bolton's, it isn't the summation of character development.  It's random character jumping around.  

Outside of sheer submissiveness and naivete, Sansa Stark does not have character in the show.  

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1 hour ago, JonSnow4President said:

I'm not saying absolutely dominated.  Fluctuation is normal, with a consistent (or developing) character core. Ned increasingly plays the political game, but at the core he is still the same loyal man who abhors the killing of innocents. 

So Sansa going from the ultimate submissive early to gradually becoming a player would be called CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.  Sansa being ultra submissive, being more submissive, then being an even more naive girl than before, then suddenly lying to protect Littlefinger like she's playing the game, then going back to being an ultra submissive, is not character development.  It's an actor there reading lines.  So when she suddenly becomes a "boss ass bitch" leading Stark loyalists (who materialize out of nowhere)  against the Bolton's, it isn't the summation of character development.  It's random character jumping around.  

Outside of sheer submissiveness and naivete, Sansa Stark does not have character in the show.  

Well, Sansa thought she was playing the game when she agreed to marry Ramsay. She was vastly outmatched, though. What bothers me about her "development" is her naivety during seasons 3-4 ("never left Winterfell before coming to KL" "Did your mother taught you (about sex)" "Sheep shift" "Would they let my family attend to the wedding") when she should have known better already  and her lack of action during season 5 before her rape.

Which makes me wary of "cheering" for her this season, as I think I'll end up disappointed again.

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16 hours ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

That she stuttered for a second, I don't mind at all. Didn't diminish her character one bit (says me), but promoted Pod from "a prop" to "an extra who has a line", he needed that.

That she looked at Theon for - approval? input? consent? - that, OTOH, was a bad, bad decision from the writers. She should have made that decision fully on her own. This way, however, she come out like a dyed-in-the-wool Damsel in Distress, with no agency on her own. Enough of that already.

She's been betrayed by most every person she's met - and this is the person that's just directly saved her life. Sometimes you have to write for the performance within the story world and not an entire fandom.

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21 hours ago, Arya_Stormborn said:

In real life, she would totally be dead from hypothermia. Legit. I can't suspend disbelief on this one. Also, what happened to the dogs during the fight scene? Nothing makes sense.

Yep but damn glad she is not going back to Ramsay's rape room anytime soon so I feel better about her than I did last season at this time when we all knew she was.

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I think the debate over the river is people getting into semantics tbh. like yeah, they probably should have probably gotten hypothermia but it wasn't as egregious of a plot hole as some people are making it out to be. 

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4 hours ago, JonSnow4President said:

I'm not saying absolutely dominated.  Fluctuation is normal, with a consistent (or developing) character core. Ned increasingly plays the political game, but at the core he is still the same loyal man who abhors the killing of innocents. 

So Sansa going from the ultimate submissive early to gradually becoming a player would be called CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT.  Sansa being ultra submissive, being more submissive, then being an even more naive girl than before, then suddenly lying to protect Littlefinger like she's playing the game, then going back to being an ultra submissive, is not character development.  It's an actor there reading lines.  So when she suddenly becomes a "boss ass bitch" leading Stark loyalists (who materialize out of nowhere)  against the Bolton's, it isn't the summation of character development.  It's random character jumping around.  

Outside of sheer submissiveness and naivete, Sansa Stark does not have character in the show.  

I just don't see it. She's been on a growth trajectory the entire time. Sure, it's happened in fits and starts, and there have been some relapses, but that's real life. 

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