Discussing Sansa XX: Run, Sansa, run...

[Maxxine]

On 4/25/2016 at 2:03 AM, Lord Lannister said:

They survived hypothermia the same way they survived that jump, in good enough shape to run, I expect.

I don't have a huge problem with them surviving the jump mostly because in the book Theon and Jeyne survived the jump and it was adequately explained  (the built up snow) so I didn't think much about it in the show. Whether or not someone could survive that jump in real life idk but I'm not pressed over it. I have a bigger problem with them wading through a river in the middle of winter and no one acknowledging the hypothermia. 

[JonSnow4President]

40 minutes ago, Clash said:

Well you haven't been hearing it from me.

She's hardly going to be anything more than a rallying point at this stage. She's one of the few remaining Starks and to most of the protagonists, the only remaining Stark. That she remains free is pretty much all that's required of her as far as I'm concerned, others will play more definitive roles in the future of the seven kingdoms.

Based on the published photos and Turner's interviews (where boss ass bitch comes from), I really doubt she's used as a mere rallying point.  

ETA: And I'm more willing to forgive that as mere ignorance Maxxine.  Looking through this very forum, you'll see people who don't think it was particularly dangerous, and the show hasn't exactly established the lethality of hypothermia.  It's such a longstanding TV/movie screw up that I just don't care at this point. However, the last Sansa/Theon scene, it very much established the lethality of gravity, and unlike the show, the book has a massively different amount of snow around the castle. 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

3 hours ago, Wilnova said:

But her choices were limited.

1. a) Either go to Winterfell and marry Ramsay and try to get justice or b)Turn back and go where? Would LF agree to her refusing? 

1. a) How about: go to Winterfell and try to get justice without marrying Ramsay? (Seriously, how does that even work? "Make your family's murderers pay for their crimes... by marrying into said family of murderers, thus legitimizing their slaughters of your relatives and bannermen and their dispossessing you of your lawful estate!" Honestly, someone with the IQ of a turnip should be able to realize that's a ludicrously absurd notion.)

How about: go to the North, but not to Winterfell? Hide out with one of the Northern lords, rally support among her own people, who know who she is and who revere the Starks? 

Or how about: persuade Sweetrobin (the nominal lord of the Vale, who loves and trusts Sansa more than anybody else after his now-dead mother) to send a Vale army to ally with Stannis and help him oust and defeat her family's murderers? That seems like a choice.

Or how about: refuse to leave the Vale, where she's safe and trusted by the (nominal) lord of the Vale? And protected by an intact army? And plenty of food? That seems like a pretty optimal choice. 

1. b ) Or how about: turn back and return to the Vale, as Littlefinger offered? (If he refuses to do it after offering, that certainly gives Sansa some really vital information about Littlefinger, so it definitely seems worth a try.) 

Also, why would Littlefinger have to "agree" if she refuses?

Sansa: I refuse to marry Ramsay Bolton.

Littlefinger: I don't agree.

Sansa: Oh, well. I guess I'll marry him then.

Littlefinger doesn't have to agree. She just has to refuse and keep on refusing. If he was set on her marrying Ramsay, he would have to take some extreme measure(s) against her to force her into it, which - again - would give her some really vital information about Littlefinger. So that seems worth trying as well.

There's a bunch more choices right there (provided, of course, that they're comprehensible to someone whose IQ is greater than a turnip, so perhaps it's not surprising that D&D's version of Sansa apparently never thought of them), all of which are more logical and conforming to the realities of Sansa's world than the "choices" that she ended up making in the show.

 

[Clash]

7 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

There's a bunch more choices right there (provided, of course, that they're comprehensible to someone whose IQ is greater than a turnip, so perhaps it's not surprising that D&D's version of Sansa apparently never thought of them), all of which are more logical and conforming to the realities of Sansa's world than the "choices" that she ended up making in the show.

It's the law of unexpected consequences. By leaving out Jeyne, D&D painted themselves into a corner by using Sansa instead. For those who know the books well, there's an internal dichotomy where we see Sansa and think Jeyne.

Everything then lives or dies by that choice. We have to have Sansa escape Winterfell with Theon because that's what happens in the book and at some point must be pivotal to the story.

 

[Stangler]

16 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

In the books.  In the show they gave her the power, only to ignore it in Season 5.

That is literally not what the story is. The story is very clearly her moving from being under the thumb of Jofferey to being under the thumb of LF. LF uses manipulation and words while Joff used brute force but she was still clearly under their power. 

 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

13 hours ago, Maxxine said:

I don't have a huge problem with them surviving the jump mostly because in the book Theon and Jeyne survived the jump and it was adequately explained  (the built up snow) so I didn't think much about it in the show. Whether or not someone could survive that jump in real life idk but I'm not pressed over it. I have a bigger problem with them wading through a river in the middle of winter and no one acknowledging the hypothermia. 

Book 6 spoilers [minor]

Spoiler

They do survive, but they have sequels. Jeyne's nose got frozen, for example, and she might lose a bit.

 

11 hours ago, Stangler said:

That is literally not what the story is. The story is very clearly her moving from being under the thumb of Jofferey to being under the thumb of LF. LF uses manipulation and words while Joff used brute force but she was still clearly under their power. 

 

I honestly don't know what you mean here, but if you mean the show, it's not really the case.

At the end of Season 4, they showed Sansa realising that LF lusted for her, and she was given this "moment of empowering" when they dressed her up as a more "adult" and "strong" Sansa. She literally told LF "I know what you want" after she saved his ass and lied on his behalf in front of the Lords. And such Lords pretty much told her "you're Ned Stark's daughter and we will protect you". Sansa had all the cards to triumph over Baelish. So, either D&d are that bad telling stories that they didn't realise all the signals pointed to Sansa being able to manipulate LF, or they simply changed their minds later.

The more likely scenario is, after they admitted the were planning this scene since Season 2, is that they wanted to make Sansa's decision a tragedy because it was a bad decision. Like "look, Sansa finally took something on her own but failed!!" because it would be more dramatic. Because honestly, no one in her right mind would do what Sansa did, willingly.

And seriously, it's very very stupid because Sansa is not a five years old, an she KNEW she would marry Ramsay, she KNEW what a wedding night involves, and she acted like she was just finding out right there what was going to happen. They presented her as this "hardened woman" dressed like a seductress to be a fearful child in the next season There is absolutely NOTHING in this plot making sense. 

[Neds Secret]

10 minutes ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Book 6 spoilers [minor]

  Reveal hidden contents

They do survive, but they have sequels. Jeyne's nose got frozen, for example, and she might lose a bit.

 

I honestly don't know what you mean here, but if you mean the show, it's not really the case.

At the end of Season 4, they showed Sansa realising that LF lusted for her, and she was given this "moment of empowering" when they dressed her up as a more "adult" and "strong" Sansa. She literally told LF "I know what you want" after she saved his ass and lied on his behalf in front of the Lords. And such Lords pretty much told her "you're Ned Stark's daughter and we will protect you". Sansa had all the cards to triumph over Baelish. So, either D&d are that bad telling stories that they didn't realise all the signals pointed to Sansa being able to manipulate LF, or they simply changed their minds later.

The more likely scenario is, after they admitted the were planning this scene since Season 2, is that they wanted to make Sansa's decision a tragedy because it was a bad decision. Like "look, Sansa finally took something on her own but failed!!" because it would be more dramatic. Because honestly, no one in her right mind would do what Sansa did, willingly.

And seriously, it's very very stupid because Sansa is not a five years old, an she KNEW she would marry Ramsay, she KNEW what a wedding night involves, and she acted like she was just finding out right there what was going to happen. They presented her as this "hardened woman" dressed like a seductress to be a fearful child in the next season There is absolutely NOTHING in this plot making sense. 

I agree, it's like D$D make Sansa look that bloody naive that she believed that she could somehow avoid "the bedding" again, like she had when she married Tyrion. Sansa is still living in a fairytale world where a chivalrous Knight might save her from her wedding night tower  just in the nick of time with her chastity in tact, a second time no less. Sansa is either an idiot or the people in charge of her plot are, take your pick?

[MrsStocksey]

1 hour ago, Neds Secret said:

I agree, it's like D$D make Sansa look that bloody naive that she believed that she could somehow avoid "the bedding" again, like she had when she married Tyrion. Sansa is still living in a fairytale world where a chivalrous Knight might save her from her wedding night tower  just in the nick of time with her chastity in tact, a second time no less. Sansa is either an idiot or the people in charge of her plot are, take your pick?

I don't think she thought she would avoid the bedding but it was probably the moment that Ramsey told Reek he had to stay that she realised it wasn't going to be a particularly nice experience.  It was like Ramsey flipped the switch in his head and the full psycho appeared, up until that point he'd been relatively nice to Sansa (compared to the way we have seen him treat others on the show), Myranda had been the real nasty one and Sansa might have taken most of that to be jealousy, which is partly true.  

She is still naïve but I don't think she ever thought she'd get away without the bedding, but she didn't expect it to be so brutal and awful. 

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Another article makes an excellent point about the problem in the pledge of fealty scene.

Theon should be the one who going all "Don't trust her! It's a trick", because it's been established that he has been brainwashed into not trusting anyone, even his sister, in that awful runaway from the dogs scene is season 4.

Sansa, on the other hand, knows Podric from her days in KL, and has met Brienne before, so she would have far more reason to trust them as not connected to Ramsay and genuinely wants to help her.

Instead in this episode it's Sansa who's unsure and Theon who nods his head.  Why?  

This is in the end is my biggest complaint about the show, and it has nothing to do with simply because they change things from the books. They frequently don't pay attention to continuity, to rules and personalities that they've previously established on the show, and simply have characters do things in a particular scene because they want it in that scene, even if it completely contradicts everything that has come before.

 

 

 

[Clash]

6 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Another article makes an excellent point about the problem in the pledge of fealty scene.

Theon should be the one who going all "Don't trust her! It's a trick", because it's been established that he has been brainwashed into not trusting anyone, even his sister, in that awful runaway from the dogs scene is season 4.

Sansa, on the other hand, knows Podric from her days in KL, and has met Brienne before, so she would have far more reason to trust them as not connected to Ramsay and genuinely wants to help her.

Instead in this episode it's Sansa who's unsure and Theon who nods his head.  Why?  

This is in the end is my biggest complaint about the show, and it has nothing to do with simply because they change things from the books. They frequently don't pay attention to continuity, to rules and personalities that they've previously established on the show, and simply have characters do things in a particular scene because they want it in that scene, even if it completely contradicts everything that has come before.

So Theon, who picks up a sword to help Brienne fight the Bolton men and fights with her side by side, should suddenly be suspicious of her? When all she's actually doing is pledging to continue what she started and protect Sansa?

I'd find that much harder to believe tbh.

 

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Why is that hard to believe? Wasn't Ramsay's trick on Theon in season 3 precisely this? He kills the man chasing Theon, like Brienne does here, and it ended up being a trick. 

 

[Clash]

5 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Why is that hard to believe? Wasn't Ramsay's trick on Theon in season 3 precisely this? He kills the man chasing Theon, like Brienne does here, and it ended up being a trick. 

Because Theon has come a fair distance from the Theon that 'escaped' back then. He's helped Sansa escape, killed Myranda and fought and killed Bolton's men. Sansa obviously knows and is not afraid of Brienne and Pod; Brienne refers to her earlier request to serve her and finally, Brienne is kind of hard to miss soTheon would probably have seen her before if she was with Ramsay.

[MrsStocksey]

8 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Why is that hard to believe? Wasn't Ramsay's trick on Theon in season 3 precisely this? He kills the man chasing Theon, like Brienne does here, and it ended up being a trick. 

 

Isn't the point that he has broken through the brainwashing which is why he made the jump with Sansa in the first place, it was the 'Reek' persona which rejected Yara, this moment was about Theon and Sansa, not Reek and Sansa.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Broken though to the point that if Yara showed up he wouldn't reject her again, that I could believe. To the point he's completely trusting of strangers he's never met before? Even more so than Sansa who knows these people?

The scene works so much better if he were the one doubting and Sansa is the one affirming that Brienne can be trusted.

[Clash]

7 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Broken though to the point that if Yara showed up he wouldn't reject her again, that I could believe. To the point he's completely trusting of strangers he's never met before? Even more so than Sansa who knows these people?

The scene works so much better if he were the one doubting and Sansa is the one affirming that Brienne can be trusted.

It's a good point, but it depends largely on the future relationship between Sansa and Theon. I read Sansa's doubt and Theon's affirmation as a demonstration of the trust she now has in Theon. Just a small thing, but it indicates some sort of right hand man position for Theon and a forgiveness for his past sins against the Starks.

[MrsStocksey]

Neither of them really 'know' Brienne.  Sansa has seen Brienne twice, once at the wedding where she spoke to Joffery and Cersei (not a good first impression) and then again in the inn. 

Perhaps if the whole scene was done differently with Theon being much more 'Reek'ish, not really helping, not offering to distract Ramsey's men and not killing one of them he could have also been scared/mistrustful at the end of the scene but that's not how they played it. 

Anyway, I don't agree that it would make the scene better but that's just my opinion, I personally loved the nod between Theon and Sansa.

[Daske]

5 hours ago, JCRB's Honeypot said:

Book 6 spoilers [minor]

  Reveal hidden contents

They do survive, but they have sequels. Jeyne's nose got frozen, for example, and she might lose a bit.

 

I honestly don't know what you mean here, but if you mean the show, it's not really the case.

At the end of Season 4, they showed Sansa realising that LF lusted for her, and she was given this "moment of empowering" when they dressed her up as a more "adult" and "strong" Sansa. She literally told LF "I know what you want" after she saved his ass and lied on his behalf in front of the Lords. And such Lords pretty much told her "you're Ned Stark's daughter and we will protect you". Sansa had all the cards to triumph over Baelish. So, either D&d are that bad telling stories that they didn't realise all the signals pointed to Sansa being able to manipulate LF, or they simply changed their minds later.

The more likely scenario is, after they admitted the were planning this scene since Season 2, is that they wanted to make Sansa's decision a tragedy because it was a bad decision. Like "look, Sansa finally took something on her own but failed!!" because it would be more dramatic. Because honestly, no one in her right mind would do what Sansa did, willingly.

And seriously, it's very very stupid because Sansa is not a five years old, an she KNEW she would marry Ramsay, she KNEW what a wedding night involves, and she acted like she was just finding out right there what was going to happen. They presented her as this "hardened woman" dressed like a seductress to be a fearful child in the next season There is absolutely NOTHING in this plot making sense. 

There is going to be big a difference on your wedding night between marrying someone who you expect to treat you as a person (which you would hope was the norm even in medieval society) and to someone who is a sadist nutjob. An enemy yes, hate him yes, but not expect a psychopath. Sansa thought she would at worst have to put up with a loveless marriage and to occasionally lie back and think and England. And horrible enough as that is. that kind of sacrifice has been talked about a lot by noblewomen in the show (e.g. Queen of Thorns to Marge and Cersei to Cat). It's horrible but a price Sansa was aware of and willing to acknowledge. She willingly sacrificed her impossible dream of marrying her 'shining prince' in her one and only chance for a seat at the table which might lead her to some kind of justice for her family. She didn't know he would be a monster.

As for Sansa's earlier empowering when she for a moment manipulated Littlefinger, this isn't a magic spell that she can cast any time she wants and take control of her life or even of any given situation. It needs an opening. You make it sound like from that point onwards she should have been leading Littlefinger around on a leash wearing a gimp suit. Yes, she has a moment, but that doesn't stop her still being a pawn of evil people and victim of horrible circumstance.

But now things have moved on. With Brienne oath's scene this is the real beginning of Sansa's rise to become a power player. Personally I though that scene was great. I don't get the criticism. She forgot her lines because she has been traumatised for years. It was clear she was trying to remember what it meant to be a Lady, to recall her Sepsa's training a lifetime ago. Pod reminded her of a line because Brienne has been schooling him recently on being a squire which I presume includes this kind of thing between a knight and their liege. She asked for a nod from Theon because that showed a moment of connection between them. A Lady needs allies and also advisers. But no doubt her confidence will grow considerably.

Anyway, I would not be surprised if she does find her opening later in the story to outmanoeuvre Littlefinger to bring about his downfall. The previous manipulation was just a foreshadowing, a taste of what she may be capable of. But it won't be easy. His lust for power is probably more powerful than anything, maybe more than his lust for her.

 

 

[Colonel Green]

1 hour ago, Daske said:

She willingly sacrificed her impossible dream of marrying her 'shining prince' in her one and only chance for a seat at the table which might lead her to some kind of justice for her family.

No remotely credible reason is ever supplied for why she thinks this is a good idea.

Quote

As for Sansa's earlier empowering when she for a moment manipulated Littlefinger, this isn't a magic spell that she can cast any time she wants and take control of her life or even of any given situation. It needs an opening. You make it sound like from that point onwards she should have been leading Littlefinger around on a leash wearing a gimp suit. Yes, she has a moment, but that doesn't stop her still being a pawn of evil people and victim of horrible circumstance.

It's not a "magic spell", it's a radical change to her status quo and attitude.  We're told that she is now on guard against Baelish, aware she has leverage over him, and has the support of Vale allies who like her more than him.  Whereas in Season 5 she is credulously doing whatever he says and allows him to take away all her leverage without complaint or even concern, which makes her a far bigger dupe than Book!Sansa ever was (she wanted to get away from him, but felt she had no other options).

[Clash]

8 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

No remotely credible reason is ever supplied for why she thinks this is a good idea.

It's not a "magic spell", it's a radical change to her status quo and attitude.  We're told that she is now on guard against Baelish, aware she has leverage over him, and has the support of Vale allies who like her more than him.  Whereas in Season 5 she is credulously doing whatever he says and allows him to take away all her leverage without complaint or even concern, which makes her a far bigger dupe than Book!Sansa ever was (she wanted to get away from him, but felt she had no other options).

But by not exposing him when she has the chance not make her complicit in his crimes? And weaken her hold on him at the same time.

[Daske]

2 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

No remotely credible reason is ever supplied for why she thinks this is a good idea.

It's not a "magic spell", it's a radical change to her status quo and attitude.  We're told that she is now on guard against Baelish, aware she has leverage over him, and has the support of Vale allies who like her more than him.  Whereas in Season 5 she is credulously doing whatever he says and allows him to take away all her leverage without complaint or even concern, which makes her a far bigger dupe than Book!Sansa ever was (she wanted to get away from him, but felt she had no other options).

Life throws curveballs and people do not always make the 'right' decisions or do what we expect them to. And others do not take advantage of things that they could use with good affect - maybe with more experience they would know how to use them. People can 'move forward' but take another knock back through no fault of their own. Her journey is not meant to be easy. And she is still very young to be dealing with everything that she is. Rather than some bolt of lightning epiphany where she suddenly found herself in control of her own destiny just because she got one over of Littlefinger I see her as following a jagged path up - two steps forward, one step back. In reality people grow slowly. But she is getting there. I suspect that next time she finds herself in a position to bend a situation to her will she will take better advantage of it.

What's the rush?